bwfan
Minor Hero
Posts: 14
|
Post by bwfan on Feb 12, 2010 13:38:27 GMT -5
All speakers should be connected in phase is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong. It should be immediately evident when listening if speakers are in or out of phase. You don't even need to check the wiring. Those test DVD's contain phase tests in them, also, that makes it easy to check for proper phasing. Out of phase speakers makes your head feel out of balance. Absolutely...I was sure Lonnie mentioned that any speakers showing out of phase in EMO-Q results would require them to have the polarity changed (reverse the + - terminals). That poses a question as to why would you do this?? That would seriously mess with soundstage imaging. Relative or not ;D |
|
Mister L'fe
Emo VIPs 
There is nothing in the dark that isn't there when the lights are on.
Posts: 417
|
Post by Mister L'fe on Feb 12, 2010 13:44:11 GMT -5
All speakers should be connected in phase is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong. It should be immediately evident when listening if speakers are in or out of phase. You don't even need to check the wiring. Those test DVD's contain phase tests in them, also, that makes it easy to check for proper phasing. Out of phase speakers makes your head feel out of balance. I haven't seen one that does a phase test for the sub to mains. Is there such a thing? |
|
|
|
Post by darien87 on Feb 12, 2010 14:58:20 GMT -5
But what bothers me is that when I listen to music with the left front speaker reversed it sounds weird to me. The voices don't seem to be coming from directly in front of me anymore. They're more coming from up and to the left of center. I guess you could say that it's given me a wider soundstage, but I don't think this is how it's supposed to sound. So I switched the connections back. Should I leave the left speaker the way Emo-Q is telling me? Classic symptom of speakers wired OUT OF PHASE. Forget EMO-Q and wire them back the proper way. I have never in my life heard or read anything that suggested wiring your speakers out of phase. I don't pretend to be an expert but Lonnie's suggestion to wire them out of phase if Emo_Q tell you too just makes no sense. When your listening to 2 channel stereo the singers voice should be centered between the 2 speakers. When they are wired out of phase the audio leaves the speakers out of phase and when they arrive at your sweet spot they will cancel each other out...making the voice sound like it coming from outside the speaker envelope. This is basic Audio 101..always wire your speakers in phase...red to red..black to black If EMO-Q is telling you your out of phase but clearly your hooked up correctly..EMO-Q is messed up..period. That's what I figured, but I'm no EE. Honestly, with the left speaker reversed it didn't sound too objectionable, just weird. As I said, it seemed like the voices were either coming out of the left and right speakers at the same time, (kind of like how the Transformers voices were in the first movie), or kind of above the left speaker. The funny thing is that this seemed to widen the soundstage and bring everything more directly in front of me. It was an interesting experience, which led me to believe that maybe this was how it was supposed to sound. Kind of like being at a concert, where sound comes at you from all around. But I didn't really like it so I changed my connections back to how they were. |
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
|
Post by klinemj on Feb 12, 2010 15:51:23 GMT -5
Great point on page 1 of this thread, crock...very much in line w/what Lonnie said on his video. Those who have not watched it should do so.
Lonnie's video helps explain why I have always been unhappy w/my Denon's Audyessy reco's. I like the options the UMC-1 has to fix some misinterpolations....
|
|
|
|
Post by billmac on Feb 12, 2010 17:23:53 GMT -5
I ran Emo-Q again and it still told me that the left front was reversed. Luckily I had watched Lonnie's video that explained about "relative phase", so I tried reversing the + and - connections on me left front and Emo-Q was finally happy with all of my speakers. So I ran it again and for the first time it was pretty close with distances and crossover points. It gave me 20Hz for the left front and 50Hz for the right front, but no biggie, I just changed them both to 40hz. But what bothers me is that when I listen to music with the left front speaker reversed it sounds weird to me. The voices don't seem to be coming from directly in front of me anymore. They're more coming from up and to the left of center. I guess you could say that it's given me a wider soundstage, but I don't think this is how it's supposed to sound. So I switched the connections back. Should I leave the left speaker the way Emo-Q is telling me?I as well do not understand why you would want to run a single speaker out of phase to get a correct Emo-Q calibration. That indicates clearly that Emo-Q is not functioning properly. The issue would be when you listen to music in the direct mode without Emo-Q your imaging will be junk. Makes absolutely no sense to me. Bill |
|
|
|
Post by Mischief on Feb 12, 2010 17:29:17 GMT -5
I have had components that were wired out of phase before, I didn't know untikl I ran a calibration disc and it took me 3 months to figure it out.
Then the same thing happened when I installed a set of B&W 683;s for as friend, one of the speakers had the polarity reversed internally, just had to swap the wires.
|
|
|
|
Post by billmac on Feb 12, 2010 17:32:59 GMT -5
I have had components that were wired out of phase before, I didn't know untikl I ran a calibration disc and it took me 3 months to figure it out. Then the same thing happened when I installed a set of B&W 683;s for as friend, one of the speakers had the polarity reversed internally, just had to swap the wires. I think if you are using your system just for HT then it will be harder to tell if the polarity of a speaker is reversed. But if you are listening to 2 CH music it becomes very obvious  . Bill |
|
ratmice
Emo VIPs
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Posts: 1,853
|
Post by ratmice on Feb 12, 2010 17:35:30 GMT -5
I have had components that were wired out of phase before, I didn't know untikl I ran a calibration disc and it took me 3 months to figure it out. Then the same thing happened when I installed a set of B&W 683;s for as friend, one of the speakers had the polarity reversed internally, just had to swap the wires. Agree that this can happen. However, I would recommend an audio calibration disc to figure this out. It's very easy to hear. Emo-Q on the other hand will give different phase results on different runs of the system - can't be trusted. I had one run where it reported all speakers out of phase except the sub. I know that's not the case as I run calibration disks a lot. And I'm not sure that even makes sense, theoretically - shouldn't it just report the sub as being out of phase rather than all the other speakers? |
|
Mister L'fe
Emo VIPs
There is nothing in the dark that isn't there when the lights are on.
Posts: 417
|
Post by Mister L'fe on Feb 12, 2010 17:41:19 GMT -5
Don't some amplifiers invert the phase?
|
|
|
|
Post by moodyman on Feb 12, 2010 18:08:33 GMT -5
Don't some amplifiers invert the phase? maybe..but it would do it to BOTH channels...you'd never notice. |
|
|
|
Post by moodyman on Feb 12, 2010 18:16:29 GMT -5
I haven't seen one that does a phase test for the sub to mains. Is there such a thing? I don't think so. In an ideal system it shouldn't be necessary anyway. The sub would be putting out different signals from the mains. The phase control on your sub is for a slighty different issue. You may have room refelctions from your sub arriving at your listening position out of phase when compared to the main sub signal. They may cancel each other out at the listening position. The sub phase control may alleviate this. |
|
Mister L'fe
Emo VIPs
There is nothing in the dark that isn't there when the lights are on.
Posts: 417
|
Post by Mister L'fe on Feb 12, 2010 18:47:25 GMT -5
I haven't seen one that does a phase test for the sub to mains. Is there such a thing? I don't think so. In an ideal system it shouldn't be necessary anyway. The sub would be putting out different signals from the mains. The phase control on your sub is for a slighty different issue. You may have room refelctions from your sub arriving at your listening position out of phase when compared to the main sub signal. They may cancel each other out at the listening position. The sub phase control may alleviate this. No way. Maybe in an "ideal system" absolute phase is maintained and you just connect red to red and black to black. But, in the real world it is possible to have 180 degree phase inversion some where in the chain. Tube amps are known to invert phase, as well as many OP amps. Put on a CD with lots of percussive bass and play with inverting the phase on the sub woofer and see the difference. A CD like the Telarc Papa Doo Run Run comes to mind. |
|
|
|
Post by SticknStones on Feb 12, 2010 18:54:32 GMT -5
I thought the videos were great and they went a long way to explain the science and the application. I have a really bad room for acoustics as it is open to dining, kitchen with hardwood floors so I can imagine that I will get odd readings. These folks are really raising the bar with the educational series and I am anxious for the XMC. I absolutely have to have the headphone jack on day one.
I hope you all are having a good time with this series! It really looks cool!
|
|
|
|
Post by Mischief on Feb 12, 2010 19:05:49 GMT -5
I also have to wonder id bi-pole and di-pole speakers may be causing some of this.
|
|
pilk
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 1
|
Post by pilk on Feb 12, 2010 20:59:04 GMT -5
Some speaker manufacturers intentionally wire their drivers out of phase as seen in this measurement from a Stereophile review:
In the time domain, the Soliloquy's step response (fig.7) indicates that the tweeter is connected in inverted acoustic polarity, with a complete cycle in its output preceding the positive-polarity step from the woofers If your speakers are bi wireable you could try reversing just the treble +/- to see if this fixes the problem
|
|
Mister L'fe
Emo VIPs
There is nothing in the dark that isn't there when the lights are on.
Posts: 417
|
Post by Mister L'fe on Feb 12, 2010 21:15:59 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Wideawake on Feb 12, 2010 21:25:45 GMT -5
Some speaker manufacturers intentionally wire their drivers out of phase as seen in this measurement from a Stereophile review: In the time domain, the Soliloquy's step response (fig.7) indicates that the tweeter is connected in inverted acoustic polarity, with a complete cycle in its output preceding the positive-polarity step from the woofers If your speakers are bi wireable you could try reversing just the treble +/- to see if this fixes the problem It might be a good idea to provide a link to the article you're referencing so that the larger context can be obtained. It could be that the speaker designer intentionally inverted the polarity of the tweeter because of the crossover slope used, in order to make the presentation phase coherent. |
|
|
|
Post by jazzgmster on Feb 13, 2010 10:15:35 GMT -5
shinso- I would also be interested in your observations, as I'm awaiting a UMC-1 and also have an all Maggie setup with a less than ideal room (16' x 18' x 8.5'). I have 6 bass traps in my room (in corners and first reflection points) but still have what I would call 'glare' from my 3.5Rs, particularly when I turn the volume up. Hoping that some good EQ (as well as better sound from the UMC-1 as compared to my MMC-1) will help.
|
|
ratmice
Emo VIPs
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Posts: 1,853
|
Post by ratmice on Feb 13, 2010 10:17:32 GMT -5
Hi ratmice, Please send me a picture of your room from all sides and your mic placement.. maybe we can help. If you want to PM this to me, please do. I don't believe you have a hardware or SW issue... Big Dan Sent them a couple of days ago. Any ideas. |
|
lonnie
Administrator 
GM
OZ- 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain'
Posts: 1,292
|
Post by lonnie on Feb 13, 2010 10:35:24 GMT -5
Hi ratmice, Please send me a picture of your room from all sides and your mic placement.. maybe we can help. If you want to PM this to me, please do. I don't believe you have a hardware or SW issue... Big Dan Sent them a couple of days ago. Any ideas. Big Dan is out of town for a few days, but I will remind him when he gets back. I just didn't want you to think he was ignoring you.  |
|
.
