quickie question about SACD

[snodog]

Ok since the DSD cant be done but people are saying there is not a distinguishable difference audibly when it is output via HDMI then is there really a need for me to buy the RCA cables for analog? Would I just use the HDMI for SACDs and only two analog cables for two channel?

[BillBauman]

snodog, the difference is whether or not you prefer the DAC of the UMC-1 or the DAC of your SACD player. The DSD part is just the encapsulation of the encoding for the various channels, the PCM part is where the raw music is stored. Once the DSD part is stripped away by the DSP, then the PCM can be sent to the DAC in the SACD player or in the UMC-1.

Personally, I think almost any high-end SACD player is going to have a better DAC than what's in the UMC-1. I would get decent analog RCA interconnects and do it that way, effectively making the UMC-1 act solely as a multi-channel analog preamp. If you connect solely via HDMI, then you can only send PCM data to the UMC-1 whereby limiting your options, forcing the UMC-1 to act as a multi-channel DAC and preamp. If you can get cables with a return policy, you can A/B the situation and decide for yourself which you prefer - if you can even hear a difference at all. Sometimes the difference in DACs and DAC implementations is imperceptible to a listener, sometimes it's quite dramatic. You might even hear differences and prefer the UMC-1.

[snodog]

Thanks Billbauman, I will be using an Oppo bdp-83 as a cd player for the time being. I might end up with an Erc-1 at some point for now I dont have a ton of room so I went with the Oppo. Do you still recommend the rca cables?

[flamingeye]

Do not forget though if you use HDMI you can use the UMC`s bass management which may be better then the players bass management for sa-cd . note : I see your using a oppo so I would bet the UMCs bass management will be better

[BillBauman]

I'll say it depends. You'll probably have to try it. Oppo uses Cirrus DACs, as well. In 2-channel they use a higher quality DAC than the one they use for multi-channel. I am personally not a fan of Cirrus DACs, so I'd say it will be best to try it out yourself. Since you probably have a similar (if not identical) DAC on the multi-channel on both the UMC-1 and the BDP-83, you could just as well go with the HDMI and not sweat it. According to flamingeye, he is not impressed with the bass management of the Oppo.

[snodog]

Im not sure if flamingeye has a UMC but I do recall reading that a couple of times and am glad he pointed it out because I forgot. Maybe Ill just try the HDMI for now then until I buy a standalone cd player....ugh always something else to buy

[hemster]

snodog, please post your findings and which way you end up going. I'm watching this with interest as I will need to make a decision very soon about how I want to connect my Oppo to the UMC-1 also.

[palmfish]

Quick little hijack here...

I also plan to mate a BDP-83 to the UMC-1 for SACD and DVD-A listening. My system doesn't have a subwoofer - does that mean I MUST use HDMI in order to route the bass freqs to my speakers?

[snodog]

I will for sure Hemster if I get the rca cables. I am not sure that I will be in a big hurry to drop more money if the DAC's are similar or the same though.

[Mischief]

With the Oppo, I would keep the connection analog, it does an amazing job.

[Mr. Ben]

In my experience, the DAC doesn't matter for SACD nearly as much as for CD. There's so much more data to work with, that it's much harder for a DAC to get it wrong. I have an inexpensive Sony SACD player that sounds lousy on CD, but great on SACD. If you want good SACD sound, use a player with a good output stage, and keep it in analog form from that point onward.

Just a correction to billbauman's first post.... DSD is a format for encoding music digitally. It's an alternative to PCM, not a container for PCM or anything like that.

[jmilton]

Oppo and bass mgt:

www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/0dbfs-blu-ray

[BillBauman]

Feb 12, 2010 9:25:26 GMT -5 Mr. Ben said:

Just a correction to billbauman's first post.... DSD is a format for encoding music digitally. It's an alternative to PCM, not a container for PCM or anything like that.

Mr.Ben!!! So rarely do I actually feel corrected on this sort of thing that I am shocked and excited! Thank you very much for pointing this out. It was always an assumption of mine that DSD was the wrapper for the SACD channel information and that it was still PCM data underneath the skin.

This would explain much of the bitstream debate. In some quick research, I see that most studies have been inconclusive on a reproducible, discernible difference between the two (DSD vs. PCM). That said, I'm not a fan of conversions so bitstreamed would probably be preferable assuming the DAC was of equal or higher quality at the last piece.

Back to your point here, I generally agree. I used to use a 5-disc Sony changer for SACD and it was pretty fantastic. Nothing high-end, it's just, when you have twice the data to work with, you don't quite need all the tricks, over and up sampling, etc., etc.

[Mr. Ben]

Feb 12, 2010 10:48:23 GMT -5 BillBauman said:

This would explain much of the bitstream debate. In some quick research, I see that most studies have been inconclusive on a reproducible, discernible difference between the two (DSD vs. PCM).

One such study, plus some theory: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tech&action=display&thread=9359

[flamingeye]

To clarify - I do not have the UMC ,but I do have the oppo bdp 83 and with my yamaha 1600 as the pre , the yamaha using HDMI is clearly better then the 7.1 inputs so I`m suer the UMC would be better too , but are we talking multichannel sa-cd or stereo because the stereo output of the oppo I think is a different story and my very well be better

[BillBauman]

flamingeye, I was addressing multi-channel. Yes, the stereo output is a significantly different DAC (though still Cirrus).

[red5ive]

Feb 11, 2010 20:14:59 GMT -5 @snodog said:

Would I just use the HDMI for SACDs and only two analog cables for two channel?

For full range 2-channel analog, yes. If you use a sub you will need a third cable. Configure the bass management in the player from there.