Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 8:48:14 GMT -5
Lonnie, Once again no disrespect but as much as you are tired of people asking where the manual is I would think UMC-1 owners are also tired of owning as you say a complicated piece without an in depth up to date manual. So when it is said a manual is forthcoming that has been said before for quite sometime. Although I do not currently own the UMC-1 I am interested in the XMC-1 and the XDA-1. So before I get the "why do you post here" or why do you even care" it is because I feel if this is the progression of the UMC-1 then could it also be the same for the XMC-1 and the XDA-1? I have no doubt that the manual is very complicated and difficult to write. Has Emotiva considered having an outside company well versed in writing technical manuals write the manual for Emotiva? It appears that Emotiva has a small staff so maybe having an outside company handle the manual would be very helpful and speed up the process. Bill Bill, you are absoultely correct and the points you make are very valid. For the processors we build in the past we did use an outside company to write the manuals. Unfortunately that company is no longer in existance and we have not been able to find a qualified replacement. We are still looking though it is difficult to find a company who actually gets audio gear. There are a number of techincal writing companies out there, but most deal in industrial applications which don't translate well to the audio field.
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Aug 10, 2010 9:08:33 GMT -5
Just a comment on Lonnie's withdrawn post.....I guess I've been spoiled by Lexicon and Audyssey who are both very active in their forums and supportive of questions and comments. Of course there are other companies that don't even have forums that they participate in. BTW....I bet you would have saved 50 or more posts and much user angst and frustration if you had just said, somewhere along the way, that you are working on the manual and you've already rewritten 30+ pages. I did make such an announcement some time back. What that generated was pages of "Where is it?", "Why isn't this done?", "This should have already been done.", "This should be put up in stages for everyone to read page by page.", "This should be put on the forum as living document for EVERYONE to edit and review.". So forth and so on. Sound familiar to anyone? We are working on it, but this is a very complicated piece that goes far beyond the processors we have done in the past. The feature sets and versatility are on a magnatude far great than previously done. So the manual is actually very difficult to do, but it is being done and we will get it out as soon as we can. I, too, would like to have a final manual but I do understand how difficult that can be. I also understand what you are saying about no matter what sort of explanation you provide, there will always be complaints. In this world, "DIYD, DIYD" and "It is what it is" pretty much say it all. ;D
|
|
|
Post by billmac on Aug 10, 2010 10:47:59 GMT -5
I disagree that supplemental manual updates would cause more confusion. The fact that when using the test tones with the UMC-1 are volume dependent has not changed with any of the FW changes. This along with other functions could have also been addressed in text updates. Well I guess you are not familiar with the LMC-1 and the issues it also had. If you were you could understand my concern moving forward when looking at the XMC-1 and the XDA-1. The time Emotiva has spent explaining Emo-Q or bass management whether on the phone or here on the Lounge would have been decreased by quite a bit if updated supplements were posted on the UMC-1's product page IMO. New product development??? I think the focus should be on getting the issues with UMC-1 corrected before moving forward. Bill
|
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 11:22:40 GMT -5
With all due respect to everyone, I have a question.
We made the processor so that the test tones when run manually would be set by the main volume control. We did this for several reasons. The first is to protect your speakers. Since there is no way for us to know how much power you are running you need a way to adjust the output level of the test tones or they could be way to high and do damage to the speakers. One other scenerio is if you are very low power like a tube amp. If the signal level is to high then the amp will clip and again damage will result to either the amp or the speakers. Anther reason why we did this is simply because they are used for level setting and possably RTA measurements. In this regard all you need to do is play it above the ambiant noise floor and as you move from speaker to speaker, match them up. You don't have to play it at ear bleeding levels as some would suggest with reference level output.
So if someone could enlighten me as to why this is suck a big deal I would appreciate it. From what I have read there are some that beleive this is a flaw in some way and that the test tones must be at a fixed output level. Why?
|
|
|
Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 11:32:38 GMT -5
The idea of having variable level test tones is good....and useful if you don't care where you set 75db output level on the UMC's master volume dial. But in the UMC-1, you have to set the master volume so that when it's set to 50.5, you are hearing 75db at your listening position so that dolby volume knows where it is and knows what eq curve to apply to the output.
The missing link is that Emotiva never told anyone that the built in test tones are variable...so those who knew how to use test tones just set the volume control randomly (wherever it was) and used the individual speaker level adjustments to bring all speakers to 75db. This results in dolby volume doing ugly things by adjusting the sound when it shouldn't be because it decides what curve to apply based on how far the master volume is from 50. I know what I'm doing and I fell into this same trap, not realizing that the test tones gave variable output...and yes, Dolby volume added some terrible distortion.
I would have documented....it's a two step process....first, set the main volume to 30 and adjust all speakers to 50db output with the test tones....Then (and only then) slowly turn the volume up to 50 and run the setup again, this time setting the output level to 75db. That would be safe and it would be easy with most any amp/speaker combination.
Alternatively, a one step process would have the user set the main volume to 35 and then set the output volume to 60db (which if the main volume is linear would give you 75db at volume setting 50 which is what you want).
It's the lack of documentation which is bad...the design/implementation is good.
|
|
|
Post by billmac on Aug 10, 2010 11:46:13 GMT -5
With all due respect to everyone, I have a question. We made the processor so that the test tones when run manually would be set by the main volume control. We did this for several reasons. The first is to protect your speakers. Since there is no way for us to know how much power you are running you need a way to adjust the output level of the test tones or they could be way to high and do damage to the speakers. One other scenerio is if you are very low power like a tube amp. If the signal level is to high then the amp will clip and again damage will result to either the amp or the speakers. Anther reason why we did this is simply because they are used for level setting and possably RTA measurements. In this regard all you need to do is play it above the ambiant noise floor and as you move from speaker to speaker, match them up. You don't have to play it at ear bleeding levels as some would suggest with reference level output. So if someone could enlighten me as to why this is suck a big deal I would appreciate it. From what I have read there are some that beleive this is a flaw in some way and that the test tones must be at a fixed output level. Why? Lonnie, I do not believe I have ever said the way the test tones are volume dependent sucks. Its just that most AVR/prepros I have owned from Anthem, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha all had fixed level test tones that were not volume adjustable. With all these units with different speakers and some with external amps I never had an issue with the test tones being too loud. Possibly with many UMC-1 owners being used to the test tones not being used to the way Emotiva designed the UMC-1 is part of the issue. The biggest part which falls squarely on Emotiva is that this is not mentioned in the manual at all. So other than calling Emotiva or posting here it was the only way for an UMC-1 owner to know this. I understand your reasoning behind the variable volume test tones but what if someone happens to have the volume level at a higher level when running the test tones? Couldn't this have the same effect your are trying to avoid? I saw more than one post from early UMC-1 owners that the test tones were way too loud as they had no idea the test tones were volume dependent. Bill
|
|
|
Post by psbman on Aug 10, 2010 11:49:30 GMT -5
The idea of having variable level test tones is good....and useful if you don't care where you set 75db output level on the UMC's master volume dial. But in the UMC-1, you have to set the master volume so that when it's set to 50.5, you are hearing 75db at your listening position so that dolby volume knows where it is and knows what eq curve to apply to the output. The missing link is that Emotiva never told anyone that the built in test tones are variable...so those who knew how to use test tones just set the volume control randomly (wherever it was) and used the individual speaker level adjustments to bring all speakers to 75db. This results in dolby volume doing ugly things by adjusting the sound when it shouldn't be because it decides what curve to apply based on how far the master volume is from 50. I know what I'm doing and I fell into this same trap, not realizing that the test tones gave variable output...and yes, Dolby volume added some terrible distortion. I would have documented....it's a two step process....first, set the main volume to 30 and adjust all speakers to 50db output with the test tones....Then (and only then) slowly turn the volume up to 50 and run the setup again, this time setting the output level to 75db. That would be safe and it would be easy with most any amp/speaker combination. Alternatively, a one step process would have the user set the main volume to 35 and then set the output volume to 60db (which if the main volume is linear would give you 75db at volume setting 50 which is what you want). It's the lack of documentation which is bad...the design/implementation is good. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would have to explain this to the CTO of Emotiva........Lonnie, you should already know the answer. Maybe i'm the only one that feels this way........
|
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 11:52:59 GMT -5
The idea of having variable level test tones is good....and useful if you don't care where you set 75db output level on the UMC's master volume dial. But in the UMC-1, you have to set the master volume so that when it's set to 50.5, you are hearing 75db at your listening position so that dolby volume knows where it is and knows what eq curve to apply to the output. The missing link is that Emotiva never told anyone that the built in test tones are variable...so those who knew how to use test tones just set the volume control randomly (wherever it was) and used the individual speaker level adjustments to bring all speakers to 75db. This results in dolby volume doing ugly things by adjusting the sound when it shouldn't be because it decides what curve to apply based on how far the master volume is from 50. I know what I'm doing and I fell into this same trap, not realizing that the test tones gave variable output...and yes, Dolby volume added some terrible distortion. I would have documented....it's a two step process....first, set the main volume to 30 and adjust all speakers to 50db output with the test tones....Then (and only then) slowly turn the volume up to 50 and run the setup again, this time setting the output level to 75db. That would be safe and it would be easy with most any amp/speaker combination. Alternatively, a one step process would have the user set the main volume to 35 and then set the output volume to 60db (which if the main volume is linear would give you 75db at volume setting 50 which is what you want). It's the lack of documentation which is bad...the design/implementation is good. No I get that, but I still don't understand why some are stating it has to be a fixed level output. If you are working with a reciever where you know what the gain stage of the amp is and how much power it is capable of then I can see where a fixed level test tone can be applied. But in the case of seperates where you have no idea of how much power is on the back end or what the gain stages are, this does not make any sence to me and this is why I am looking for clarification.
|
|
|
Post by psbman on Aug 10, 2010 12:01:03 GMT -5
The idea of having variable level test tones is good....and useful if you don't care where you set 75db output level on the UMC's master volume dial. But in the UMC-1, you have to set the master volume so that when it's set to 50.5, you are hearing 75db at your listening position so that dolby volume knows where it is and knows what eq curve to apply to the output. The missing link is that Emotiva never told anyone that the built in test tones are variable...so those who knew how to use test tones just set the volume control randomly (wherever it was) and used the individual speaker level adjustments to bring all speakers to 75db. This results in dolby volume doing ugly things by adjusting the sound when it shouldn't be because it decides what curve to apply based on how far the master volume is from 50. I know what I'm doing and I fell into this same trap, not realizing that the test tones gave variable output...and yes, Dolby volume added some terrible distortion. I would have documented....it's a two step process....first, set the main volume to 30 and adjust all speakers to 50db output with the test tones....Then (and only then) slowly turn the volume up to 50 and run the setup again, this time setting the output level to 75db. That would be safe and it would be easy with most any amp/speaker combination. Alternatively, a one step process would have the user set the main volume to 35 and then set the output volume to 60db (which if the main volume is linear would give you 75db at volume setting 50 which is what you want). It's the lack of documentation which is bad...the design/implementation is good. No I get that, but I still don't understand why some are stating it has to be a fixed level output. If you are working with a reciever where you know what the gain stage of the amp is and how much power it is capable of then I can see where a fixed level test tone can be applied. But in the case of seperates where you have no idea of how much power is on the back end or what the gain stages are, this does not make any sence to me and this is why I am looking for clarification. Fixed level is what most are used to.....myself included. I think the variable tone's are a great Idea. And with more information from the start on how to use it correctly. I doubt anyone could've complained about it.
|
|
|
Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 12:05:09 GMT -5
Right or wrong, the standard seems to be fixed test tones. Certainly my Lexicon processors had it and I've never come across variable speaker test tones. However, I think your implementation is actually an improvement.....but you just have to tell people about it.
I repeat something I said in this forum months ago.......techies assume that everyone else is a techie.....and that's not reality. Emotiva seems to assume that somehow, their users will figure out how to use something.....perhaps because you and Dan understand it...but without telling us, even some of the more technical users (and I am one of them) can't guess.
Lonnie, you have never told us if the built in test tones should be set to 75db or 85db....are they -20 or -30db. I suspect that the internal test tones are -20db which is one of the reasons folks had speaker problems...because if the spec is to set the reference level at 50, then you have to measure 85db which is LOUD. Most home gear uses -30db test tones so measurements can be made at 75db which is a very listenable level. (as you may recall I asked you on the phone and in writing about the level of the test tones and you never responded). Note: you could also say that the reference level is UMC level 40 and measure 75db at that point.....but say something to your users so they know how to set the box up!!!!
So...my take is design good, documentation bad, likely internal test level is too high (and then there's the question that was raised about whether you're using white or pink noise for the test tones which would effect the setup accuracy and repeatability, but perhaps not be audibly significant to most users)
|
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 12:16:18 GMT -5
Right or wrong, the standard seems to be fixed test tones. Certainly my Lexicon processors had it and I've never come across variable speaker test tones. However, I think your implementation is actually an improvement.....but you just have to tell people about it. I repeat something I said in this forum months ago.......techies assume that everyone else is a techie.....and that's not reality. Emotiva seems to assume that somehow, their users will figure out how to use something.....perhaps because you and Dan understand it...but without telling us, even some of the more technical users (and I am one of them) can't guess. Lonnie, you have never told us if the built in test tones should be set to 75db or 85db....are they -20 or -30db. I suspect that at 50.5, the internal test tones are -20db which is one of the reasons folks had speaker problems. Most home gear uses -30db test tones so measurements can be made at 75db which is a very listenable level. (as you may recall I asked you on the phone and in writing about the level of the test tones and you never responded). So...my take is design good, documentation bad, likely internal test level is too high (and then there's the question that was raised about whether you're using white or pink noise for the test tones which would effect the setup accuracy and repeatability, but perhaps not be audibly significant to most users) I would have swarn that I answered this but for hte life of me I can find the post so maybe I didn't. The test tones are set to -20dbfs and are white noise.
|
|
|
Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 12:21:11 GMT -5
So...why don't you add to my sticky, correct my sticky or replace my sticky on calibration and tell users that they should calibrate their UMC-1 so that when using the internal test tones with the master volume set to 40 (dolby volume and night mode both off), the measured output at your listening position should be 75db.
|
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 13:16:32 GMT -5
So...why don't you add to my sticky, correct my sticky or replace my sticky on calibration and tell users that they should calibrate their UMC-1 so that when using the internal test tones with the master volume set to 40 (dolby volume and night mode both off), the measured output at your listening position should be 75db. Because I remember a whole thread about some Wiki thing where everyone was talkng about copy protecting or regestering or something a long those lines so we here at Emo couldn't copy or modify the document and if I am not mistaken your sticky was part of that. If I am mistaken, please accept my apology.
|
|
bootman
Emo VIPs
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
|
Post by bootman on Aug 10, 2010 13:20:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 13:35:51 GMT -5
Because I remember a whole thread about some Wiki thing where everyone was talkng about copy protecting or regestering or something a long those lines so we here at Emo couldn't copy or modify the document and if I am not mistaken your sticky was part of that. If I am mistaken, please accept my apology. I have no idea what you're refering to...please feel free to do whatever you want with that sticky. Please get the right info into the forum or somewhere so that your users can experience Dolby Volume correctly, if they try it.
|
|
|
Post by BillBauman on Aug 10, 2010 14:02:10 GMT -5
So...why don't you add to my sticky, correct my sticky or replace my sticky on calibration and tell users that they should calibrate their UMC-1 so that when using the internal test tones with the master volume set to 40 (dolby volume and night mode both off), the measured output at your listening position should be 75db. Because I remember a whole thread about some Wiki thing where everyone was talkng about copy protecting or regestering or something a long those lines so we here at Emo couldn't copy or modify the document and if I am not mistaken your sticky was part of that. If I am mistaken, please accept my apology. Lonnie, when I added a wiki to the Emonatics site, there were users that thought I should add an exclusive copyright to ensure that you and Emotiva don't 'steal' any hard work the end users put in to documenting the UMC-1. I didn't directly comment on this at the time, but there is a license on the Emonatics Wiki, and it is a GPL (General Public License). That means that you and everyone else are free to copy / modify and redistribute the information within the Emontics Wiki however you would like.I think some folks really want Emotiva to have to suffer through its shortcomings, misgivings, mistakes, etc. I would rather just take it for what it is, great price, great equipment, sometimes bugs happen, sometimes docs aren't finished on time. I understand all that. If you weren't offering 100% money back months and months after owning a product, I might have room to get upset. Since you are, I'm like, well, hell, let's just have fun with the whole thing, right? I haven't directly commented on this topic, but I feel since you were under the impression that some aspect of Emonatics or the Emonatics Wiki was under some super-exclusive copyright, that I would try to make my position clear. Emonatics, as it states on the home page, is for fun. I'd like to also think that the information there is useful and easy to find, when the forums sometimes come up a bit short in that category. Hopefully everyone, including Emotiva, finds Emonatics useful and can benefit from the consolidated knowledge and experience of everyone involved.
|
|
|
Post by petes on Aug 10, 2010 14:25:19 GMT -5
Hi Lonnie
Rather than questions about how exactly to put the information into the public domain, I guess what we're looking for is just how to correctly configure the UMC re: DV. Given the variable test tones, this seems to be pretty complicated - ghstudio has had a crack at it and what we're looking for is the "official" way to do it. At present, the UMC has DV, but if you just run EmoQ and then turn on DV, it doesn't seem to be correctly configured. So, does EmoQ configure the speaker levels so that DV is correct at present in your view. And, how can you configure DV manually.
pete S
|
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Aug 10, 2010 14:44:20 GMT -5
Because I remember a whole thread about some Wiki thing where everyone was talkng about copy protecting or regestering or something a long those lines so we here at Emo couldn't copy or modify the document and if I am not mistaken your sticky was part of that. If I am mistaken, please accept my apology. Lonnie, when I added a wiki to the Emonatics site, there were users that thought I should add an exclusive copyright to ensure that you and Emotiva don't 'steal' any hard work the end users put in to documenting the UMC-1. I didn't directly comment on this at the time, but there is a license on the Emonatics Wiki, and it is a GPL (General Public License). That means that you and everyone else are free to copy / modify and redistribute the information within the Emontics Wiki however you would like.I think some folks really want Emotiva to have to suffer through its shortcomings, misgivings, mistakes, etc. I would rather just take it for what it is, great price, great equipment, sometimes bugs happen, sometimes docs aren't finished on time. I understand all that. If you weren't offering 100% money back months and months after owning a product, I might have room to get upset. Since you are, I'm like, well, hell, let's just have fun with the whole thing, right? I haven't directly commented on this topic, but I feel since you were under the impression that some aspect of Emonatics or the Emonatics Wiki was under some super-exclusive copyright, that I would try to make my position clear. Emonatics, as it states on the home page, is for fun. I'd like to also think that the information there is useful and easy to find, when the forums sometimes come up a bit short in that category. Hopefully everyone, including Emotiva, finds Emonatics useful and can benefit from the consolidated knowledge and experience of everyone involved. Bill, I honestly didn't know the Wiki people were taking about was yours. I think I have said this before, but I want to say it again. I can't tell you how much I apprecaite all the work and effort you and others have put into helping everyone on the forums. I know we have been remiss is finishing up the manual and educating the public but we are working hard to correct. Sometimes I get all wrapped up just trying to put out the forest fires a few people start that I don't have time to acknoledge all the good things going on the forums and your site is definately a great resource to everyone. So to all who have been there helping everyone else, Thank you! Your efforts are apprecaited.
|
|
|
Post by Topend on Aug 10, 2010 14:48:12 GMT -5
The idea of having variable level test tones is good....and useful if you don't care where you set 75db output level on the UMC's master volume dial. But in the UMC-1, you have to set the master volume so that when it's set to 50.5, you are hearing 75db at your listening position so that dolby volume knows where it is and knows what eq curve to apply to the output. The missing link is that Emotiva never told anyone that the built in test tones are variable...so those who knew how to use test tones just set the volume control randomly (wherever it was) and used the individual speaker level adjustments to bring all speakers to 75db. This results in dolby volume doing ugly things by adjusting the sound when it shouldn't be because it decides what curve to apply based on how far the master volume is from 50. I know what I'm doing and I fell into this same trap, not realizing that the test tones gave variable output...and yes, Dolby volume added some terrible distortion. I would have documented....it's a two step process....first, set the main volume to 30 and adjust all speakers to 50db output with the test tones....Then (and only then) slowly turn the volume up to 50 and run the setup again, this time setting the output level to 75db. That would be safe and it would be easy with most any amp/speaker combination. Alternatively, a one step process would have the user set the main volume to 35 and then set the output volume to 60db (which if the main volume is linear would give you 75db at volume setting 50 which is what you want). It's the lack of documentation which is bad...the design/implementation is good. I prefer using my AIX test bluray rather than the internal test tones as I get more consistent results particularly with the sub level. Will this procedure of setting 75db @ volume 50.5 still be relevant? Dave.
|
|
|
Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 15:59:03 GMT -5
you can set up the UMC-1 with any test tone, prefereably pink noise but white noise will do.
Hopefully your test disk will say whether the reference/test tones are recorded at -20 or -30db. That's important to know.
If the test tones are recorded at -30db, then set the UMC volume to 50 and adjust the speakers individually to 75db output (using your radio shack meter, your iphone meter, your friends sound meter....you need one of them).
If the test tones are recorded at -20 db then you have a choice....you can set the volume to 50 and play very very loud test sounds and then adjust each speakers so the sound measures 85db....or you can let sanity step in, protect your ears and let your neighbors enjoy their day in peace and set the UMC volume dial to 40 and then set each speaker so the meter reads 75db output.
While you are calibrating, make sure that both dolby volume and midnight mode (in parameters) are set to off.
Would someone copy this and send it to everyone in the world so I don't have to write it again.....or Lonnie, I give you or LC or any of your immediate friends or families permission to copy any word, phrase, sentence or paragraph and post it where folks will see it and/or put it on a scrap of paper and send it in the box with the UMC-1 if you don't have a manual.
GH
|
|