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Post by Spiky on Oct 11, 2010 22:02:25 GMT -5
If, with the roll out of the XMC-1, it has operational issues (may this never be), given the experience with the UMC-1, how patient are you likely to be with Emo? Given that the XMC-1 might not be a standout bargain as the UMC-1 is, and will have competition from processors such as the AV7005 from Marantz and up to date, full featured AVRs, what will be the level of your patience? jamrock My finances have made me very patient. But the current form of the UMC software and XMC specs have really dropped my interest to almost nil. I just come here a couple, three times a month to see if it changed again. The lure of audio quality is strong, but this really is quite crazy at this point. The UMC was never on my radar, only the XMC. I hope they really have trashed the old plans, and the blue light is the only thing that makes it into the final version, that Cirrus chip has been an absolute nightmare for anyone touching it.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Oct 12, 2010 16:52:40 GMT -5
Spikey: Try to see the 'overall picture' You are trying to win specific battles while you lose the war. So, let me ask you a question to get you back on track: Can you proffer a realistic explanation for Emotiva not including legacy video I/O connections on the XMC-1?
Let me admit that it was my understanding that bluray was the preferred hi-def source for most consumers. All bluray players are equipped with HDMI & component video I/O connections. So, if all bluray players for 2011 eliminates or down rez component video to 576i, where is the hi-def picture from this source? Secondly, if for 2011 BRD manufacturers can insert an ICT into a bluray release to turn off component I/O, how do you get hi-def from that release?
And, do you even imagine that AACS is going to allow cable, satelite & telco (non-AACS) boxes to circumvent the ICT? Think again!
I'll give you that if you keep your current bluray library, BRD player and your display, surely, you will be able to get 1080i/p via component. However, buy a 2011 disc with ICT and 576i is all you get. Remember, no DVD player can upconvert video to true 1080i/p. The vast majority of current bluray releases, do not have a DVD version. So you do without. Great!
All my video connections are hdmi, whether or not I use by S550 BRP to play BRD, DVD or CD. Therefore, the lack legacy video connections on the XMC-1 pose no concern to me.
Believe it or not, unless CE comes up with a different content disc, everything is going HDCP & HDMI. Do I like it, hell no! But, I know that change is inevitable and, in order to remain successful, you need to adapt to change, not to resist & redicule it. The dinosaurs tried that and see what happened to them?
No offence anyways, I'm out!
jamrock
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Post by moe on Oct 12, 2010 17:04:12 GMT -5
If, with the roll out of the XMC-1, it has operational issues (may this never be), given the experience with the UMC-1, how patient are you likely to be with Emo? Given that the XMC-1 might not be a standout bargain as the UMC-1 is, and will have competition from processors such as the AV7005 from Marantz and up to date, full featured AVRs, what will be the level of your patience? jamrock My finances have made me very patient. But the current form of the UMC software and XMC specs have really dropped my interest to almost nil. I just come here a couple, three times a month to see if it changed again. The lure of audio quality is strong, but this really is quite crazy at this point. The UMC was never on my radar, only the XMC. I hope they really have trashed the old plans, and the blue light is the only thing that makes it into the final version, that Cirrus chip has been an absolute nightmare for anyone touching it. If the XMC is uses something else that's fine but the Cirrus chip has been no nightmare to me, the UMC sounds very sweet.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Oct 12, 2010 17:31:17 GMT -5
The Cirrus chip boasts pretty good specs. But, many manufacturers seem to have problems with it. I cannot tell if the problems with the UMC-1 were purely the chipset related.
However, I'm a bottom line guy. Buying for me depends on whether or not it can perform as advertizsed.
jamrock
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Post by oscartheclimber on Oct 12, 2010 23:17:49 GMT -5
Jamrock - you never quit with your analog sunset crusade.
The ICT has nothing to do with sat/cable. I'm guessing what you are refering to is SOC - Selectable Output Control. Currently Hollywood can turn off the analog output of new releases for something like 90 days. This is regulated by the FCC.
I have no doubt that Hollywood will continue to lobby until they get their way. But that still doesn't mean that all component output will cease beginning in 2011.
More importantly you seem to confuse all content as being owned by Hollywood. Movies are a small part of the overall video entertainment experience. Content from the networks, Discovery Channel, Food Network, ESPN, etc. will most likely remain available in HD over component.
I personally would guess that Emo are planning on eliminating the legacy video connection primarily to keep the price of the XMC down. There was chatter some months back that we would see the XMC for more than $1k, but less than $1500. Now we are back to $999. Something had to go. Since it is highly likely that buyers of the XMC have BD players and HDMI TVs it makes sense to eliminate the legacy connectors and related electronics, as well as hardware/software required to enforce SOC and analog sunset.
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Post by Spiky on Oct 13, 2010 13:17:40 GMT -5
Spikey: Try to see the 'overall picture' You are trying to win specific battles while you lose the war. So, let me ask you a question to get you back on track: Can you proffer a realistic explanation for Emotiva not including legacy video I/O connections on the XMC-1? Let me admit that it was my understanding It's just amazing that people will continue to belittle others to prop up incorrect theories or understanding. So, your hypothesis is that I need to get "back on track"? Maybe you could tell us what track you are on so we know what on earth you are talking about. I, along with others, have already explained this to you, as the external links should have. Go read it again. Last thoughts: I should not have to throw away my stuff (like a DVDp that throws a better pic than most BDp's) just because you think I should. None of the major players in this marketplace have thrown away analog video, because they want to keep customers that still have use for it. And, do you even imagine that AACS is going to allow cable, satelite & telco (non-AACS) boxes to circumvent the ICT? Think again! Seriously, what does that even mean? You plan to play BDs through a cable box? Cable boxes can't even handle cable.
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Post by Spiky on Oct 13, 2010 13:33:14 GMT -5
If the XMC is uses something else that's fine but the Cirrus chip has been no nightmare to me, the UMC sounds very sweet. Like I said, that's why I'm interested. But you do know it delayed your product by 2 years. And there are clearly growing pains. Without having touched a UMC, it sounds like an awesome digital 2-channel pre. Adding the other 5.1 channels has been complicated.
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Oct 13, 2010 14:11:33 GMT -5
If the XMC is uses something else that's fine but the Cirrus chip has been no nightmare to me, the UMC sounds very sweet. Like I said, that's why I'm interested. But you do know it delayed your product by 2 years. And there are clearly growing pains. Without having touched a UMC, it sounds like an awesome digital 2-channel pre. Adding the other 5.1 channels has been complicated. A Sherbourn tech also said that their processor, using the Cirrus chips, has been very troublesome for them. Has around a 60% return rate. The Cary product also has some (many?) issues, just check around the web. Something about the chipset is very difficult to implement easily, great sound notwithstanding. So it may not have been a nightmare to you, but I bet dollars to donuts that Emotiva/Tonewinner engineers would not agree with you.
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Post by moe on Oct 13, 2010 16:20:44 GMT -5
Like I said, that's why I'm interested. But you do know it delayed your product by 2 years. And there are clearly growing pains. Without having touched a UMC, it sounds like an awesome digital 2-channel pre. Adding the other 5.1 channels has been complicated. A Sherbourn tech also said that their processor, using the Cirrus chips, has been very troublesome for them. Has around a 60% return rate. The Cary product also has some (many?) issues, just check around the web. Something about the chipset is very difficult to implement easily, great sound notwithstanding. So it may not have been a nightmare to you, but I bet dollars to donuts that Emotiva/Tonewinner engineers would not agree with you. That could very well be true, the chip is problematic, but it has been no "nightmare" to me.That's really all I'm concerned with, my enjoyment of the UMC.The $420 price, $100 GC, fancy remote....there is non better,or even close, not at this point in history. ;D I assume the XMC will be the same, nothing better or close at it's price...but we'll see.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Oct 13, 2010 16:44:00 GMT -5
Like I said, that's why I'm interested. But you do know it delayed your product by 2 years. And there are clearly growing pains. Without having touched a UMC, it sounds like an awesome digital 2-channel pre. Adding the other 5.1 channels has been complicated. A Sherbourn tech also said that their processor, using the Cirrus chips, has been very troublesome for them. Has around a 60% return rate. The Cary product also has some (many?) issues, just check around the web. Something about the chipset is very difficult to implement easily, great sound notwithstanding. So it may not have been a nightmare to you, but I bet dollars to donuts that Emotiva/Tonewinner engineers would not agree with you. I know the guys at Sherbourn really well, thy are old friends and they haven't said anything about a return rate like that (small industry, everyone knows everyone). From what I'm told it's around 6%. Are you sure he said 60?
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Oct 13, 2010 16:45:21 GMT -5
Spikey: Try to see the 'overall picture' You are trying to win specific battles while you lose the war. So, let me ask you a question to get you back on track: Can you proffer a realistic explanation for Emotiva not including legacy video I/O connections on the XMC-1? Let me admit that it was my understanding It's just amazing that people will continue to belittle others to prop up incorrect theories or understanding. So, your hypothesis is that I need to get "back on track"? Maybe you could tell us what track you are on so we know what on earth you are talking about. I, along with others, have already explained this to you, as the external links should have. Go read it again. Last thoughts: I should not have to throw away my stuff (like a DVDp that throws a better pic than most BDp's) just because you think I should. None of the major players in this marketplace have thrown away analog video, because they want to keep customers that still have use for it. And, do you even imagine that AACS is going to allow cable, satelite & telco (non-AACS) boxes to circumvent the ICT? Think again! Seriously, what does that even mean? You plan to play BDs through a cable box? Cable boxes can't even handle cable. My intent on this forum is never to belittle or insult anyone. I'm here to share and most importantly, to learn. Therefore, since you take my innocuous request for you to focus on the big picture as an insult, I sincerely apologize. However, if you want me to learn from anything you've said so far, rather than telling me that I am wrong, tell me what the truth is, or provide the correct information. Don't refer me to 'an outside link' Express yourself! I've asked you to address why Emo did not include component video on the XMC-1, and you have not answered. At least, Oscartheclimber offered an explanation. I respectfully disagree with him. But, what's yours? AACS was founded by Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, IBM, Intel, Disney & Warner Brothers. The purpose was to protect Bluray & HD DVD content. Not only are AACS compliant devices with component I/O down rez to 576i, (manufacturers), AACS directed bluray movie manufacturers (content providers) to OPTIONALLY inbed a flag (ICT) into 2011 bluray movies that will disable or down rez the cpmponent video output of any AACS compliant device regardless of manufacturing date. Am I wrong or right? I'll ask you a hypothetical: If some time after 01/01/11, HBO is broadcasting a 2011 bluray movie inbedded with ICT. You are getting this transmission over cable. Your cable box is connected to your display or AVR/Propro by component output. Will your cable box (non AACS compliant) able to circumvent the inbedded flag and send a 1080P signal to your display? Lastly, how can you in good conscience claim that your DVDp sends a better picture than most bluray players? Can a DVD player send a true 720p, 1080i or 1080p picture? Even those DVD players that can upconvert and transmit over component or hdmi, are not equal to the cheapest bluray player on the market. What is the size of your display? Native is always superior to upconverted. My last word. Hopefully, those consumers with miles of component cables running through their walls and/or ceilings, will find a way to enjoy hi-def (1080i/p) content on their displays long after this horrible decision goes into effect. ;D Peace bro jamrock
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Oct 13, 2010 22:37:16 GMT -5
I know the guys at Sherbourn really well, thy are old friends and they haven't said anything about a return rate like that (small industry, everyone knows everyone). From what I'm told it's around 6%. Are you sure he said 60? That was the number I was told. Don't know the guy very well, but he had no reason to fabricate any numbers, either. It did seem astoundingly high to me. I'll believe your intel over his. Maybe he was reporting returns for all reasons (ie repairs, etc..) not just straight returns. I don't know about their update procedures or FW history, but might you have to send it in to reflash it?
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Post by autocrat on Oct 13, 2010 23:15:58 GMT -5
I'll ask you a hypothetical: If some time after 01/01/11, HBO is broadcasting a 2011 bluray movie inbedded with ICT. You are getting this transmission over cable. Your cable box is connected to your display or AVR/Propro by component output. Will your cable box (non AACS compliant) able to circumvent the inbedded flag and send a 1080P signal to your display? I'm almost 9000% sure that HBO don't broadcast Blu Ray.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Oct 14, 2010 19:30:52 GMT -5
I'll ask you a hypothetical: If some time after 01/01/11, HBO is broadcasting a 2011 bluray movie inbedded with ICT. You are getting this transmission over cable. Your cable box is connected to your display or AVR/Propro by component output. Will your cable box (non AACS compliant) able to circumvent the inbedded flag and send a 1080P signal to your display? I'm almost 9000% sure that HBO don't broadcast Blu Ray. You did not answer the question though. So, let me ask you this: When a movie studio, Lionsgate, Dreamworks, WB, etc. makes a movie, there is a commercial release for movie theaters and a release for home video (bluray and sometimes a DVD version) From which of these releases do content providers such as HBO, ABC, AMC, etc broadcast said movie to consumers? Or, is there a special release for content providers? Thanx, jamrock
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Post by autocrat on Oct 14, 2010 20:26:05 GMT -5
Special release.
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Post by visiter555 on Oct 14, 2010 20:49:33 GMT -5
It's just amazing that people will continue to belittle others to prop up incorrect theories or understanding. So, your hypothesis is that I need to get "back on track"? Maybe you could tell us what track you are on so we know what on earth you are talking about. I, along with others, have already explained this to you, as the external links should have. Go read it again. Last thoughts: I should not have to throw away my stuff (like a DVDp that throws a better pic than most BDp's) just because you think I should. None of the major players in this marketplace have thrown away analog video, because they want to keep customers that still have use for it. Seriously, what does that even mean? You plan to play BDs through a cable box? Cable boxes can't even handle cable. AACS was founded by Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, IBM, Intel, Disney & Warner Brothers. The purpose was to protect Bluray & HD DVD content. Not only are AACS compliant devices with component I/O down rez to 576i, (manufacturers), AACS directed bluray movie manufacturers (content providers) to OPTIONALLY inbed a flag (ICT) into 2011 bluray movies that will disable or down rez the cpmponent video output of any AACS compliant device regardless of manufacturing date. Am I wrong or right? Peace bro jamrock You are wrong, as has been said by several members here, who have included links to the ruling as enacted. New release BluRays can have a flag setable to downres component FOR THE FIRST 90 days after the release date of the said disc. The flag is limited as has been stated here on the thread to the first 90 days AFTER the release date. Once the first 90 days are over the flag must be disabled and allow the component to its max res (1080i). They can not disable the component on this based on the ruling, even though that was the original request from some.
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Post by audionut on Oct 15, 2010 7:52:06 GMT -5
I'll ask you a hypothetical: If some time after 01/01/11, HBO is broadcasting a 2011 bluray movie inbedded with ICT. You are getting this transmission over cable. Your cable box is connected to your display or AVR/Propro by component output. Will your cable box (non AACS compliant) able to circumvent the inbedded flag and send a 1080P signal to your display? Broadcasters don't just play a bluray to transmit a movie over cable/SAT. Completely different source medium. Completely different rules when content is transmitted in this way. The separate rules for each do not apply to the other. Therefore your 2011 example can only apply to bluray and not cable/sat, video consoles, existing installed base of DVD players, changers, media servers, HTPC, music systems, etc that may not have a HDMI connection. Now if Emotiva feels it can afford to abandon this group of consumers from buying the XMC, that is solely a business decision on their part and nothing to do with the AACS.
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Post by 2muchht on Oct 15, 2010 10:47:06 GMT -5
Hopefully to to clear a little confusion, with appolgies if someone has done this way back in the depths of this lengthy thread:
Program material is generally mastered once, in HD to a high quality storage media. If original is film, then it's what we used to call "fil-to-tape" transfers, though now it's more like "film-to-digits", with the storage possibilites being numerous. To have to do this as few times as needed, the transfer from film, budget permitting, is made at the higheset possible quality, so that DVD or Blu ray you watch may have been mastered in 4K.
From that one master, copies can be made so that edits are done, if needed, to accomodate the requirements of a specific release channel (e.g. pay channels vs. physical media distribution (DVD & Blu ray), airlines, regional requirements for coding, languages, subtitles, etc.).
THEN, depending on the requirements of the distribution channel playback is from the source used by that channel.
An interesting point with regard to ICT: A number of years ago at the HPA (Hollywood Post Alliance) annual Technology Retreat, where experts from production, post production and distribution gather yearly to see what is coming down the line for the future while figuring out how to deal; with "today", multi-Emmy winner Mark Schubin ran images in his presentation in both "full res" and "ICT'd 'half-res' " to make a point about ICT. In a room full of "golden eyes" many could not tell the difference.
Regardless, we have to get used to the fact that it is the studios' football, and they can set the rules of the game any way they like.
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Post by jethro on Oct 15, 2010 11:05:23 GMT -5
For me the choice would be quite simple and I'm sure it would be similar for others like me. I have a dedicated theater in which only uses HDMI... it's just a projector, cable box (that uses hdmi), and a blu-ray player. For this setup, why would I need legacy inputs? The only thing I have at my house that uses any form of legacy is my nintendo Wii.
So, I would think there are more people out there like me and this unit absolutely fits the bill for some folks.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Oct 15, 2010 11:23:03 GMT -5
... and you can get an HDMI adapter for the Wii too.
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