|
Post by briank on Nov 26, 2011 15:00:01 GMT -5
Speaker cables technically can modify the sound. However, given that you judged them by another system, likely with different components, in a different room...all of which can have a huge impact compared the the tiny nuances which a cable may or may not impart, how do you attribute what you heard to the cable? Cable effects are fractional dB while rooms can be 10db. My comparison was direct with the cables I was using at the time. My system was sounding a little too lean and I wasn't sure if it was my cables or the amp, so I took my amps, ic's and speaker cable to Statement Audio/Video in Knoxville Tn and we compared them. The system consisted of Revel Salon II speakers, McIntosh cd player, McIntosh pre-amp plus two huge 1200 watt McIntosh monoblocks. I compared the two UPA-1's against the McIntosh amps first and the little UPA-1's compared amazingly well to the $40k monoblocks and drove the Revel Salon II's with ease. No leaness there. Next we compared just swapping the interconnects and then just the speaker cables using both the UPA-1's and the McIntosh amps. The culprit was my interconnects. I liked how the Audioquest King Cobras and Audioquest Gibraltor speaker cable sounded with the UPA-1's so I made the switch. I've since changed cd players, Pre-Pro, and amps but I'm still happy with my Audioquest cables.
|
|
|
Post by shayned on Nov 26, 2011 15:30:59 GMT -5
"Does it make that 600.00 amp sound like a 2200.00 amp ?" "All along I thought you should put your money into the amp , wow I was wrong I just needed a better power cord ." -More sarcasm, completely missing my point and failing to understand my history or where I'm coming from-
"There have in fact been measurements..." -Where has there been a study on cable connections vs. driver movement? Please link or tell me where I can purchase/read such information.
Minor Hero-yes, I'm a scientist too, but a medical one. Placebo effect is a real *bleep* to deal with, and always has to be considered. Prejudice is another; removing bias is very difficult. I don't buy the just-because-you-can't-measure-it-doesn't-mean-I-can't-hear-it idea. We have enough tech to measure many things more accurately than is needed, the key is in the correlation, if differences arise. Things like depth, imaging, etc, are all just products of cone movement; that's how you'd measure it. If you put an identical signal at the same level through a speaker, and the driver response changes when you switch out a wire, the wire has changed the sound. Period.
The reason I have so many high-priced cables around is because I spent years chasing my tail on this subject. My XPA-2 review in the review section explains a bit of why I think why I do... I would just love to see some solid research into the matter. There are so many variables, and emotions, it's a tough sell either way...
|
|
gomer
Emo VIPs
Posts: 356
|
Post by gomer on Nov 26, 2011 15:41:39 GMT -5
I'd play devil's advocate with your argument and ask why the makers of multi thousand dollar cables can't come up with measurable proof? Likewise, I'm not saying a cable can't change the sound. I know they can. I can spend $5 on passive caps/resistors/inductors and impart any change I want. I don't need $1000+ to do that. I can take zipline, put it in some tygon tubing, put that in a tech flex jacket and put on nice connectors and ...I'll stop there And on that, A spectrum analyzer, DMM, and oscilloscope will tell me far far more then a laser on the driver movement. (and for further clarity, I work with all those types of instruments ) Arguing cables is like arguing religion :-D
|
|
|
Post by shayned on Nov 26, 2011 16:12:31 GMT -5
Gomer-true, but in my opinion, you always have to consider the source of the study. Cable manufacturers telling their research shows how much better their cables sound is a primary/major source of bias, therefore the research is invalidated. Drug companies try this all the time.
I also disagree that any of those instruments tell you more about actual driver movement than measuring it directly. I don't know of any spectrum analyzer that measures finely enough, but they could be out there, and I'm sure they would cost a fortune. It's always better to keep things as simple as possible, so I thought examining driver motion as it correlates to equipment changes was the best idea. Of course, then you run into the problem of correlating changes to actual listening. Human hearing is highly variable from person to person, which is the biggest problem.
Yeah, it is like arguing religion. It always leads to a war somewhere! lol
|
|
gomer
Emo VIPs
Posts: 356
|
Post by gomer on Nov 26, 2011 16:23:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by shayned on Nov 26, 2011 16:31:34 GMT -5
Sure, nice piece, but how does it measure direct physical driver movement? This could still work another way though, so damn, why don't you get to work for us?
LOL!
|
|
gomer
Emo VIPs
Posts: 356
|
Post by gomer on Nov 26, 2011 16:34:34 GMT -5
If you want to measure speaker movement, you will need to couple the optical output through an interferometric arm, into a photodiode, through a current pre-amp and then into this. Or, you can send the electrical signal into this. Either way, you need to go into something like this. Earlier you mentioned cheaper and simpler and this is actually cheaper and simpler :-D
|
|
|
Post by shayned on Nov 26, 2011 22:34:02 GMT -5
Very good, and if the tolerances are tight enough, why hasn't this been done? Is there something wrong with what I'm thinking? I would love to see some serious testing done independently. Oh well, probably not gonna happen...
Thanks for the input, everyone... Sorry if I hijacked this thread...
|
|
gomer
Emo VIPs
Posts: 356
|
Post by gomer on Nov 26, 2011 22:59:45 GMT -5
It probably has been done and you probably don't hear about it because it is futile. It follows my comment on "arguing cables is like arguing religion." There is no "proof" proofy enough to satisfy a believer. Trust me, I'd love to hear cables that make sonic differences that warrant the cost and are substantiated. I just haven't come across them. I'd be the equivalent of a "cable agnostic."
A cable person will ask how you can measure imaging, resolution etc. An anti cable person will say it is simple inductance, capacitance, resistance.
Even if a cable can be shown (which I haven't seen proof of) to offer a little tangible audible benefit through sheer engineering, I can't imagine the investment can compare to the absolute magic of a really well designed crossover. (Edit: this comment is because I think most speakers don't fall into the category of really well designed XO).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 0:19:07 GMT -5
Gomer is 100% right about speaker cables being like a religion. Both sides will never budge. I'm fine with someone buying whatever the heck they want but at the same time, I don't want someone to preach to me about it either. After my experiences with this matter, there is nothing anyone could show me or tell me that would make be buy into any cable snake oil.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 8:21:05 GMT -5
As a moderator, it is usually wise to refrain from entering into polarizing debates such as this one, and for many years, this has been my mantra. Today, I will engage and share my opinion. At the end of the day, it's just that - an opinion - and my views are not intended to sway anyone from theirs, to discredit those that oppose my view, or to offend anyone. I have heard and evaluated music systems (mostly 2.0) since the late 1970s. As you can imagine I have witnessed both sides of this debate argued vehemently and intelligently. Although during that span I have rarely offered my views (because I quickly learned as a young lad people can get heated over this issue; more on that rather hilarious and impressionable event later). * I believe there are differences in cables (let's just stick to speaker cables for the purposes of this discussion). Wire is not wire, in my experience. The differences that I have heard, however, are not always congruent with the cost of the cables, so caveat emptor. * As others have stated (actually, almost all have) materials used, build quality and shielding are the most important factors in making a great cable. After this, yes I have heard differences in cables. So many times over the years, across different systems, rooms, equipment with music that I am very familiar with that lead me to this opinion. * I have come to the view that come cables have a sonic signature, others do not. Some sonic signatures I like while others I don't. I am aware that the physics and math would suggest otherwise, yet its there, I have heard it over a long span of time and on many occasions. * High cost does not guarantee a great cable, and rarely, if ever, does spending the long green on cables yield results that are consistent with its cost. * That said, I have heard obscenely expensive cables that sounded marvelous and awful sounding cables that were dirt cheap. I have heard the opposite too: inexpensive cables that were superior sounding to cables costing 10 even 20 times as much. * It is far more common to find a cable that is quite economical that sounds just fine, which is great news for this thrifty audiophile. In the late 1970s as I was saving my money to build my first system, I would frequent this local audio shop that was walking distance from my home. I'm sure I made myself a pest going there twice a week but the owner was a kindly German with the patience of a saint. Over a few months I had settled on my budget and the components so it was just a matter of time before I had the system. Of course, at that age (12) it took a long time to earn and save the money but I kept hanging out at the shop. I had seen other regular customers but i mostly kept to myself. I watched, listened and learned much from these experienced audiophiles. One monsoon Saturday afternoon, the owner (Peter Berger) was holding court with three other customers. With everyone held captive by the weather everyone sat around and chatted. The subject of cables came up with one customer pontificating cables made little to no difference at all in the sound while the other two took the opposing view. I noticed Peter was staying out of it but attentive nonetheless. Of course, I knew nothing at this stage of my hobby but I knew something significant was going on because the conversation escalated. Peter did nothing except smile. It got so loud two of the technicians from the back of the store noticed and joined the group (although not the discussion). The culmination was the cables-make-no-difference guy threatened one of the yes-they-do guys to a fight. What made it mildly hilarious is that he was a bean pole, maybe 130 pounds soaking yet while the other guy was at least 6'3" and roughly 240 pounds. Peter stepped in before anything got started of course and the altercation was dissipated. I alter asked Peter what he thought about the "debate" and he smiled and said, "Uh uh... you're going to have to find out that one by yourself.." Of course, your mileage may vary....
|
|
|
Post by shayned on Nov 27, 2011 12:09:47 GMT -5
I think polarizing debates are great if people just relax and stay open minded. Being a bit on the scientific side, I would like to see a serious independent study on the subject. The only cables I've seen make any great difference are radically designed ones/networked ones. It totally is like religion, which is too bad, because it stands in the way of real progress.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Nov 27, 2011 13:28:16 GMT -5
I'm an objectivist on all things audio. I totally respect the experience of those who claim to be able to hear differences between regular interconnect & speaker cables regardless of the termination used. I would like to see a real DBX test conducted just to demonstrate that there is no change in the signal. Hence, whatever is claimed to be heard is totally placebo. I would rather have the subjectivist explain how one can hear a difference when the source material, signal, volume, components, speakers and the room are identical. This rather than the old debate of whether a difference is heard or not.
|
|
gomer
Emo VIPs
Posts: 356
|
Post by gomer on Nov 27, 2011 13:36:42 GMT -5
Maybe I'll set up some equipment at work and see how if I can pull something off :-D
|
|
|
Post by toolshed on Dec 9, 2011 12:10:23 GMT -5
I've heard no difference, but go to bluejeans cables for everything for one reason alone: the connectors / termination. "Ultrasonically" welded for their speaker wires and Canare RCAPs for their audio cables. From other companies I may not believe it, but a lot of people claim bluejeans is snake oil free, so I spend the extra money basically because they tell me to. Anyone have any insight into these things?
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Dec 9, 2011 12:32:40 GMT -5
I've heard no difference, but go to bluejeans cables for everything for one reason alone: the connectors / termination. "Ultrasonically" welded for their speaker wires and Canare RCAPs for their audio cables. From other companies I may not believe it, but a lot of people claim bluejeans is snake oil free, so I spend the extra money basically because they tell me to. Anyone have any insight into these things? I like Blue Jeans because they make a quality product, they ship stuff out fast, and you can ask them questions on the phone and they know what they are talking about and don't try and sell you stuff you don't need. I also like how their web site contains factual stuff instead of sounding like a used car site like so many of these snake oil cable companies do. BJC operates on scientific principles with sound engineering and logical reasons for what they do. They don't use nebulous terms to describe the "sound" of their cables. Their cables aren't cheap (as compared to say, Monoprice) but I trust them and they are much less expensive than all these esoteric cables. To me, a cable should have no sonic character of its own, it should only transmit the signal in an accurate manner. If two cables sound different from each other, than at least one of them is defective. It doesn't mean one has better sound, it means one is defective. Maybe both could be defective.
|
|
|
Post by dbster on Dec 11, 2011 22:21:39 GMT -5
Note that there are two types of banana plugs for speaker cables. One type inserts in the jack. The other type inserts in the jack and has a screw head to expand it tightly in the jack (e.g. the wire enters the banana plug at a right angle, so the rear of the banana plug has the screw head to tighten to expand it in the jack). So for a more solid connection I would take the spade lugs tightened on the "5 way" binding post or the banana plug with the screw to tighten that expands the banana plug, over a regular banana plug that fits in and then contact is made by spring tension.
|
|
|
Post by jdsewell on Dec 18, 2011 10:18:39 GMT -5
Being curious back in college and just an engineering nerd I found out there are differences which can be made with speaker wire; the biggest factors are the gauging of the wire and the purity of the wire. Also chemically nobody can make copper more pure past 99.999 percent, no matter what they say. Now I am going to cover other factors which can make a difference but comparatively they make a very small difference compared to gauging and purity. One factor is the cross sectional area to surface ratio. This is due to some very extreme physics theories that state that higher frequencies travel along the surface of the wire due to the "Skin Effect," while the low frequencies travel along the inner core of the wire. So it is best to try getting this ratio to equal to one, allowing for a constant equal speed of all frequencies within the wire. So it is best to try to get a more solid core wire, and if need be a wire which was pulled into a rectangular cross section allowing for a better ratio. A couple of others are the quality of dielectric surrounding the wire and shielding if the wire is placed parallel to a wire carrying a strong electrical current because with the wires running parallel to each other can produces a magnetic field which can cause some negligible interference.
|
|
jamrock
Emo VIPs
Courtesy Costs Nothing. Give Generously!
Posts: 4,750
|
Post by jamrock on Dec 18, 2011 15:28:56 GMT -5
Oh, really?
|
|
hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,921
|
Post by hemster on Dec 19, 2011 2:18:33 GMT -5
OK, since rather has expressed his opinion, I too will share a story.. a true story mind you.
A few years ago, I was at a high-end audio store in NH when Robert Harley visited there. The store did a blind A/B switch of some speaker cables and asked all present int he room (about 20 people) to rate which they liked the sound of. Did that a few times with different music but all else (other components etc.) being constant. Sort of like the optometrist asking: "Which is better, A? or B? .... again, A? or B?"
Most listeners chose A and that was a Transparent Audio cable costing about $150. The other? Well that was plain old zip cord costing about $2!
Does this mean that high-end cables are worth their salt? Maybe. maybe not. Does this mean that cheap cables are useless? Maybe. maybe not.
I don't think a generalized conclusion can be drawn. The only thing I can state is that on that day, with that system, the majority of the audience preferred a certain cable in deference to another cable. Nothing more, nothing less.
Personally I think there's a happy price/quality ratio somewhere around the Emotiva, Bluejeans and the better quality Monoprice cables that most listeners would be satisfied with. This is just my opinion and anyone who thinks to the contrary is entitled to their opinion too.
|
|