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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2013 19:12:11 GMT -5
Hey! - I love chuckienut!(Not him I was referring to of course! ). Oh sure Mad Norseman, now everyone here knows! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Dan Laufman on Mar 17, 2013 8:34:43 GMT -5
There are a few guy's left on the forum that are walking a thin line with me... but it is much better now. I want to hear different opinions, and I don't have to agree with them. It's s matter of delivery and also just plain common courtesy. I hate the poster that takes a difference of opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Grrrrr.... I've pulled the plug on a few. Very quietly, mind you. But one day they are here, and the next day, they have just magically disappeared!! Carry on boys! Big Dan aka: The Eye In The Sky
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Post by billmac on Mar 17, 2013 8:51:48 GMT -5
It's s matter of delivery and also just plain common courtesy. I hate the poster that takes a difference of opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Grrrrr.... Dan, I totally agree with this. I appreciate the fact that yourself and the Mods here allow members to have different opinions on Emotiva gear even when it might not be positive but is done in a respectful way. Bill
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Post by jmilton on Mar 17, 2013 9:01:58 GMT -5
There are a few guy's left on the forum that are walking a thin line with me... but it is much better now. I want to hear different opinions, and I don't have to agree with them. It's s matter of delivery and also just plain common courtesy. I hate the poster that takes a difference of opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Grrrrr.... I've pulled the plug on a few. Very quietly, mind you. But one day they are here, and the next day, they have just magically disappeared!! Carry on boys! Big Dan aka: The Eye In The Sky ...anyone hear from Monkumonku lately? Hmmmmm....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 10:31:07 GMT -5
> Room modes cannot be fixed with eq alone
Well, pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries.
They make the pipes louder or softer to even out the apparent loudness of the organ in the church. The church space provides two factors: volume (i.e. length x Width x hight of room) and reverberation. Clearly, the larger the space, the more decibels it will take to fill it. The more reverberation, the fewer the decibels are needed to fill it.
So if a particular church has more reverb in the bass that in the treble, the bass pipes will need to be softer and the treble pipes will need to be louder to sound balanced. This is called tonal finishing; tonal finishing can take weeks of work, on a new organ. If the acoustics are really bad, the organ will never sound good.
Sophisticated organ builders do acoustic tests of the building, to determine the wind pressures and critical measurements of the pipes, and the pipes voicing.
Organbuilders would love to be able to adjust the building acoustics (e.g. removing carpet would make a dramatic improvement in many cases), but this normally isn't possible.
Sincerely /blair
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:22:15 GMT -5
I don't live in a church, but I have eliminated a standing wave room mode on a previous sub using a mono graphic EQ with excellent results. I tested before and after with FR/meter measurements and the improvement was clearly audible. This was a specific component recommended by a sub company.
I realize room acoustic treatments can be very effective. However, there are many of us who do not have the option of turning our living room into a recording studio or dedicated home theater. My wife is very tolerant of my equipment rack, speakers including a large sub next to the sofa, but wall acoustic panels or bass traps just won't fit in. I do plan as I have time in the future try to make some custom wall panels with material that would fit in with our American/Asian living room decor. Until then I do the best I can with speaker placement, sub SMS-1 EQ, sound absorbing carpeting, furniture, etc, pre-pro para EQ and EQ'ing on the future XMC-1.
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Post by mgbpuff on Mar 17, 2013 12:10:29 GMT -5
Call it what you like, it's amplitude equalization and it does not eliminate the room nodes - it just makes for a best compromise in the frequency response at the main listening seating area. Of course another thing to consider is the organ plus the reverberant hall combination constitutes source material on its own, meaning that whatever the resultant sound it causes, that is the sound that defines it. Kind of like crappy guitar amplifiers that distort but 'define' the sought after unique sound.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 13:51:26 GMT -5
Call it what you like, it's amplitude equalization and it does not eliminate the room nodes - it just makes for a best compromise in the frequency response at the main listening seating area. Of course another thing to consider is the organ plus the reverberant hall combination constitutes source material on its own, meaning that whatever the resultant sound it causes, that is the sound that defines it. Kind of like crappy guitar amplifiers that distort but 'define' the sought after unique sound. OK, so I guess we are into semantics here. I figure if I can't hear them they are eliminated. Perhaps they were still there in non critical areas. When I first hooked up the sub it was immediately obvious that it had a peak somewhere in the lower range, I figured 30-50Hz as this was a small but excellent sub. After the FR tests I nailed it at 40Hz and if my memory is correct it was about 7-8dB's. Most young folks thought it sounded great but I knew it was peaked. After the adjustment and one other small peak higher, it sounded excellent and measured that way too, of course that was at my seat. However, the effect was positive at the other main seat about 5 feet away and also as one walked around the room. At the time I didn't take multiple measurements, but now I wish I had. My son who was a professional drummer played his Planet Drum CD and said he had never heard such natural transient bass. I tuned off the EQ and he agreed that it sounded slightly boomy/muddy. Anyway I was happy even though the ghost room modes were still there. ;D
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Post by jmilton on Mar 17, 2013 15:13:44 GMT -5
> Room modes cannot be fixed with eq alone Well, pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries. They make the pipes louder or softer to even out the apparent loudness of the organ in the church. The church space provides two factors: volume (i.e. length x Width x hight of room) and reverberation. Clearly, the larger the space, the more decibels it will take to fill it. The more reverberation, the fewer the decibels are needed to fill it. So if a particular church has more reverb in the bass that in the treble, the bass pipes will need to be softer and the treble pipes will need to be louder to sound balanced. This is called tonal finishing; tonal finishing can take weeks of work, on a new organ. If the acoustics are really bad, the organ will never sound good. Sophisticated organ builders do acoustic tests of the building, to determine the wind pressures and critical measurements of the pipes, and the pipes voicing. Organbuilders would love to be able to adjust the building acoustics (e.g. removing carpet would make a dramatic improvement in many cases), but this normally isn't possible. Sincerely /blair You do know that the "loudness" of the pipes are controlled by the opening and closing of the swell box shutters they are housed in. They are all played at the same volume and the cases are closed in each rank to reduce their output. Famous builders would rap their canes on the floor to measure the echo ( Bach and Schnitger), but almost all organs were placed for optimal effect in the front or rear of the church. Some European organs are of the swallows nest design in the side naves, but placement was not for practical sound reasons.
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Post by mgbpuff on Mar 17, 2013 15:20:54 GMT -5
Speaker/sub frequency responses are correctable by EQ. Room resonances, standing waves, etc. are less correctable by EQ. Glad you got the results that pleased you! That's what it's all about, enjoyment!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 16:30:18 GMT -5
>You do know that the "loudness" of the pipes are controlled by the opening and closing of the swell box shutters they are housed in. They are all played at the same volume and the cases are closed in each rank to reduce their output. Famous builders would rap their canes on the floor to measure the echo ( Bach and Schnitger), but almost all organs were placed for optimal effect in the front or rear of the church. Some European organs are of the swallows nest design in the side naves, but placement was not for practical sound reasons.
Actuallly, swell boxes were invented about a century after Bach and Schnitger. But there is a tradition that Silberman (a contemporary of Silberman) tested acoustics by rapping his cane on the floor. Both Silberman and Schnitger would have set the loudness of the pipes by wind pressure, and opening and closing the toes of the pipes, (adjusting wind to the pipes which are essentually whistles, hence their loudness). There is one pipe per note, so you can adjust the loudness across the spectrum.
I believe this voicing of the organ to the room is unique to organs. No body would revoice a piano or violin to be louder or softer depending on venue; it is what it is... But as someone previously pointed out, perhaps the room should be considered part of the instrument as it has such an effect upon its sound. This contrasts with a room to listen to recordings, where room "colouring" of the recording should be considered a form of distortion.
Sincerely /b
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 18, 2013 11:10:12 GMT -5
There are a few guy's left on the forum that are walking a thin line with me... but it is much better now. I want to hear different opinions, and I don't have to agree with them. It's s matter of delivery and also just plain common courtesy. I hate the poster that takes a difference of opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Grrrrr.... I've pulled the plug on a few. Very quietly, mind you. But one day they are here, and the next day, they have just magically disappeared!! Carry on boys! Big Dan aka: The Eye In The Sky ...anyone hear from Monkumonku lately? Hmmmmm.... Okay I am back now and feeling cooperative.
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2013 11:21:33 GMT -5
...anyone hear from Monkumonku lately? Hmmmmm.... Okay I am back now and feeling cooperative. Man, you're a dead ringer for LCSeminole! But why do you look so shocked? ;D
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 18, 2013 11:23:23 GMT -5
Okay I am back now and feeling cooperative. Man, you're a dead ringer for LCSeminole! But why do you look so shocked? ;D Shocked? What do you mean? Life is good.
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geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,204
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2013 11:39:08 GMT -5
Man, you're a dead ringer for LCSeminole! But why do you look so shocked? ;D Shocked? What do you mean? Life is good. Carefull. Kate Beckinsale might mistake you for LC.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 22:24:28 GMT -5
Shocked? What do you mean? Life is good. Okay I am back now and feeling cooperative.
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