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Post by billmac on Mar 3, 2013 3:59:27 GMT -5
You're mistaken. Jeff may have many abilities I cannot match. But that does not mean that in EQing an audio system I cannot match his *results*. I don't understand what you are saying . If you readily admit you can't match Jeff's abilities then how could match his results when EQing an audio system? You are openly contradicting yourself here . I really do not understand how you think you could possibly match the results of a calibrator with years of experience that Jeff has. You keep talking about the ability to create a measured flat response. I'm not well versed in A/V system calibration but from what I have read it is not all about having a measured flat response. There is that important factor of how ones system will sound and not just from one point in ones room. So you can keep believing you can match the results of a experienced calibrator when in my opinion you will not even come close . Bill
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Post by yves on Mar 3, 2013 4:31:49 GMT -5
So you can keep believing you can match the results of a experienced calibrator when in my opinion you will not even come close . John Lennon once told he believed in fairies until they're disproven... ;D
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Post by avaddikt on Mar 3, 2013 11:50:08 GMT -5
If anyone can match a pro's results with equipment under $1000, and no experience beyond doing their own system, they could be out there making a small fortune with very little investment.
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Post by garym on Mar 3, 2013 12:43:48 GMT -5
If you readily admit you can't match Jeff's abilities then how could match his results when EQing an audio system? You are openly contradicting yourself here . Sorry, but that is not a contradiction. A parallel: I cannot match the skills of a general surgeon either, but I can apply a band-aid as well as he can. Because I can read a response curve as well as he can. It is for me.
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Post by moodyman on Mar 3, 2013 14:05:24 GMT -5
If anyone can match a pro's results with equipment under $1000, and no experience beyond doing their own system, they could be out there making a small fortune with very little investment. Why?? Is the demand high for pro calibrators??
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Post by avaddikt on Mar 3, 2013 14:32:16 GMT -5
If anyone can match a pro's results with equipment under $1000, and no experience beyond doing their own system, they could be out there making a small fortune with very little investment. Why?? Is the demand high for pro calibrators?? It probably would be if it could be done cheaply with the same results. Not to say (and it has been said repeatedly) there are not less expensive routes that will still yield some improvement that are DIY. But as it is, there is only a small segment that has some understanding of the process or can appreciate the difference. It's a big deal for many to pay $30 for a cal disk and devote some time to tweak the picture on their display for more accuracy.
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Post by sacdukeman on Mar 4, 2013 1:39:26 GMT -5
"Because I can read a response curve as well as he can."
But, quite likely, not as well would you know what to do to improve it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 4:22:30 GMT -5
Hey Jeff, Welcome to the Lounge ! I have no doubt that you can improve my system. You have done work for Bruce (in NH) and he speaks very highly of your work. Bruce also commented that you are not a fan of Audyssey which is cool. I will contact you through your site to see when you will be back in the New England area. I think there is a possibility of three of us in our area that are interested. Bill Bill, as I mentioned already, I prefer to roll my own and feel I have enough experience and know-how to do a very good job. Maybe not equal to that of Jeff but good enough for my saving the 500-800 dollars or so for his service at this time. I of course have no objection whatever of your taking advantage of his service and I'm sure you will get excellent results. However, I see one problem in your system, if that is your current system in your signature. You have surround speakers that are not timbre matched. As you might know besides realizing the importance of having the front LCR speakers matched, I also emphasize what I think is very important and that is to have the surround speakers matched. I have done experiments myself and have read professionals listener blind tests that have clearly shown an improvement in the all around smoothness of the 360 degree soundstage for both multi-channel movie and multi-channel music sound tracks. Thus I am willing to give you some free advice ( absolutely no charge, from the goodness of my heart since you are a fellow Lounge member). This will help you now even if you do hire Jeff. In fact it will make his calibration even more successful. I'm sure he will agree that the absolute best arrangement is to have all 5, 7, etc. speakers all voice/timbre matched from the same brand/series (although many folks and even some pro's ignore this advice). Thus replacing your DT surrounds with a pair of the matching Salk Song Surround speakers (Song Surround I or II) will make a very audible improvement in your HT system. You're more than welcome, don't mention it! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by billmac on Mar 4, 2013 7:52:12 GMT -5
No it was a contradiction IMO. So now you are equating calibrating ones room to applying a band-aid . Yeah right . So if given the response curves of ten different rooms with an assortment of components you can figure out how to make corrections in that room for the best overall SQ as well as Jeff can? Whats next more analogies to go along with those referencing plumbers and surgeons? How about one referencing Rocket Scientists ;D. Bill
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Post by billmac on Mar 4, 2013 8:19:54 GMT -5
Bill, as I mentioned already, I prefer to roll my own and feel I have enough experience and know-how to do a very good job. Maybe not equal to that of Jeff but good enough for my saving the 500-800 dollars or so for his service at this time. (Our cancer bills are on the high side! ) I of course have no objection whatever of your taking advantage of his service and I'm sure you will get excellent results. However, I see one problem in your system, if that is your current system in your signature. You have surround speakers that are not timbre matched. As you might know besides realizing the importance of having the front LCR speakers matched, I also emphasize what I think is very important and that is to have the surround speakers matched. I have done experiments myself and have read professionals listener blind tests that have clearly shown an improvement in the all around smoothness of the 360 degree soundstage for both multi-channel movie and multi-channel music sound tracks. Thus I am willing to give you some free advice ( absolutely no charge, from the goodness of my heart since you are a fellow Lounge member). This will help you now even if you do hire Jeff. In fact it will make his calibration even more successful. I'm sure he will agree that the absolute best arrangement is to have all 5, 7, etc. speakers all voice/timbre matched from the same brand/series (although many folks and even some pro's ignore this advice). Thus replacing your DT surrounds with a pair of the matching Salk Song Surround speakers (Song Surround I or II) will make a very audible improvement in your HT system. You're more than welcome, don't mention it! ;D ;D ;D Chuckie, First off I'm sorry to hear that you are under going cancer treatments. I hope that the treatments are going well and you are cancer free as soon as possible. As far as having matching surrounds I agree 100% and I'm well aware of that limitation on my system. I recently added the ADS 300C surrounds in much better locations to replace the Def Tech BP2x surrounds. I just updated my signature to reflect that change as I have a 5.1 system and have do not need two pairs of surrounds. There are two reasons for not having a pair of Salk Surrounds. First is that my room (livingroom) is not the best configuration wise as the room is open on one side. The other limitation is the size of my room which is 17' wide and only 13' deep. So I went from the Def Techs on the ceiling to the 300Cs on the back wall. The main listening position (Laz-Boy) is now dead center between my LCR and surround speakers . The second reason is the cost of the Salk Surrounds. I felt they would be wasted in my room due to placement limitations. I spoke with Jim Salk about this and he agreed. I already had the 300Cs which I rebuilt with all new drivers. They are a much better timbre match to the STs and Song Center than Def Techs were without a doubt . So I really appreciate your concern and free consultation . But after speaking with Jim having matching surrounds is ideal but not crucial in his opinion. So no offense but I'll take the advice of a master speaker builder as far as the overall importance of having timbre matched surrounds. Once again I hope you are feeling better and that better health will be with you in the future . Bill
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Post by billmac on Mar 4, 2013 8:55:18 GMT -5
"Because I can read a response curve as well as he can." But, quite likely, not as well would you know what to do to improve it. Well said and the point that garym is missing . Bill
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Post by sacdukeman on Mar 4, 2013 11:21:30 GMT -5
Bill, as I mentioned already, I prefer to roll my own and feel I have enough experience and know-how to do a very good job. Maybe not equal to that of Jeff but good enough for my saving the 500-800 dollars or so for his service at this time. (Our cancer bills are on the high side! ) I of course have no objection whatever of your taking advantage of his service and I'm sure you will get excellent results. However, I see one problem in your system, if that is your current system in your signature. You have surround speakers that are not timbre matched. As you might know besides realizing the importance of having the front LCR speakers matched, I also emphasize what I think is very important and that is to have the surround speakers matched. I have done experiments myself and have read professionals listener blind tests that have clearly shown an improvement in the all around smoothness of the 360 degree soundstage for both multi-channel movie and multi-channel music sound tracks. Thus I am willing to give you some free advice ( absolutely no charge, from the goodness of my heart since you are a fellow Lounge member). This will help you now even if you do hire Jeff. In fact it will make his calibration even more successful. I'm sure he will agree that the absolute best arrangement is to have all 5, 7, etc. speakers all voice/timbre matched from the same brand/series (although many folks and even some pro's ignore this advice). Thus replacing your DT surrounds with a pair of the matching Salk Song Surround speakers (Song Surround I or II) will make a very audible improvement in your HT system. You're more than welcome, don't mention it! ;D ;D ;D Chuckie, First off I'm sorry to hear that you are under going cancer treatments. I hope that the treatments are going well and you are cancer free as soon as possible. As far as having matching surrounds I agree 100% and I'm well aware of that limitation on my system. I recently added the ADS 300C surrounds in much better locations to replace the Def Tech BP2x surrounds. I just updated my signature to reflect that change as I have a 5.1 system and have do not need two pairs of surrounds. There are two reasons for not having a pair of Salk Surrounds. First is that my room (livingroom) is not the best configuration wise as the room is open on one side. The other limitation is the size of my room which is 17' wide and only 13' deep. So I went from the Def Techs on the ceiling to the 300Cs on the back wall. The main listening position (Laz-Boy) is now dead center between my LCR and surround speakers . The second reason is the cost of the Salk Surrounds. I felt they would be wasted in my room due to placement limitations. I spoke with Jim Salk about this and he agreed. I already had the 300Cs which I rebuilt with all new drivers. They are a much better timbre match to the STs and Song Center than Def Techs were without a doubt . So I really appreciate your concern and free consultation . But after speaking with Jim having matching surrounds is ideal but not crucial in his opinion. So no offense but I'll take the advice of a master speaker builder as far as the overall importance of having timbre matched surrounds. Once again I hope you are feeling better and that better health will be with you in the future . Bill I second the speedy recovery/remission wish! I went from a 6.1 to a 3.1 setup in my great room because the configuration for surrounds was so lousy ( like yours, open on one side). My other room, that this thread discusses, also features surrounds not timbre matched to the mains. My impression from Jeff is that he doesn't think matching surrounds to mains is a high priority - better to simply get nicely diffuse surrounds (I know he likes both Klipsch and Atlantic in this regard) that work with your room space and acoustics. Once you have those, upgrading mains can be done independently.
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Post by garym on Mar 4, 2013 11:44:12 GMT -5
I'm sure he will agree that the absolute best arrangement is to have all 5, 7, etc. speakers all voice/timbre matched from the same brand/series (although many folks and even some pro's ignore this advice). I'm one of those who ignore it. My FL & FR are Klipsch RF7IIs, center is a Klipsch clone (with metal cones on the mid-woofers and horn tweeters), but the surrounds are all in-wall Polks. But that's because I'm not much concerned with the fidelity of screeching tires and approaching jets, which is mainly what you get on movie surround channels. I haven't even EQed those speakers (though they're level-matched). But I'd agree that if you're listening to multi-channel music, matching speakers would be advisable.
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Post by jdskycaster on Mar 4, 2013 11:46:15 GMT -5
A great thread and a very good read that could have been even better if a couple posters could contain their need to criticize, question and denigrate. Is it really that hard to do?
I have no first hand knowledge of Jeff's capabilities but it sure sounds like sacdukeman's experience was a very positive one. It is also a very positive affirmation of Emotiva's hard work. I have a hard time believing Jeff's participation here is anything other than a positive for this forum but given some of the feedback here would not blame him if he decided to stay away. What a head shaker...
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Post by garym on Mar 4, 2013 11:55:33 GMT -5
So if given the response curves of ten different rooms with an assortment of components you can figure out how to make corrections in that room for the best overall SQ as well as Jeff can? Ten rooms? But the answer is, Yes (though I probably could not do it as quickly as Jeff). It doesn't matter how many components, etc., there are, and you don't need to figure anything out. You simply adjust the parameters until the response is flat. Then, in my case, I boost the 100-300Hz range 2-3 db to bring vocals a bit further forward.
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Post by garym on Mar 4, 2013 12:04:40 GMT -5
sacdukeman . . .
How do you like that Rythmik F12? Does it do the job? I want to upgrade my sub, and that one is currently at the top of my list. But also considering the F15HP.
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Post by garym on Mar 4, 2013 12:09:57 GMT -5
A great thread and a very good read that could have been even better if a couple posters could contain their need to criticize, question and denigrate. Questioning the need for a service does not amount to criticizing or denigrating someone who performs that service, or questioning his skills, JD.
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Post by jdskycaster on Mar 4, 2013 12:17:46 GMT -5
^Maybe you skipped over some of the posts I read in this thread. I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions and at least make an attempt to understand first prior to questioning.
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Post by billmac on Mar 4, 2013 13:35:50 GMT -5
Ten rooms? But the answer is, Yes (though I probably could not do it as quickly as Jeff). It doesn't matter how many components, etc., there are, and you don't need to figure anything out. You simply adjust the parameters until the response is flat. Then, in my case, I boost the 100-300Hz range 2-3 db to bring vocals a bit further forward. Speed is not in question but the quality of the end product. Which again I highly doubt with basic tools you could match Jeff's results. So the components do not matter? You have experience with many different processors and how to get the best results out of their onboard EQ systems? If not then you would need to "figure them out" . How do you like that Rythmik F12? Does it do the job? I want to upgrade my sub, and that one is currently at the top of my list. But also considering the F15HP. Hey I have the F12 as well why didn't you ask me for my opinion ;D? Seriously the F12 is an excellent sub but if you have the budget for the F15HP then that is the way to go. A friend of mine has dual F15HPs and they sound excellent with both music and HT use. Brian Ding who is the owner of Rythmik is excellent to deal with. Bill
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 4, 2013 14:13:15 GMT -5
You're right, but the important factor isn't the equipment. A professional cabinetmaker might own a $150 hammer, but he could still do good work with a $12 one from Walmart. What a pro is bringing to the table these days is *experience* and *expertise*. In the past, good quality calibrated microphones were very expensive, but that is no longer true. Today, in fact, you *can* buy a calibrated microphone (with software) for under $300 that is quite good enough to get "professional results". Accuracy alone is not what separates "pro" equipment from "consumer" equipment. There are other reasons why a pro might find a more expensive microphone or analyzer easier to work with. Likewise, what EmoQ brings to the deal isn't the microphone we throw in; it's the fact that it uses the results of those measurements to do a room correction (which is something that not everyone knows how to do). What EmoQ provides is expertise (in the form of "an expert system" - a program that does what a human expert would do). And, yes, you could learn to do as good a job as EmoQ does by reading a few chapters in a book, and you could even learn to do as good a job as your human pro - by reading the *whole* book.... if you actually paid attention and learned what was in it. But you probably don't want to bother to; you'd probably rather pay us (or him) to do it for you. Probably the biggest difference between what EmoQ does and what a human pro does is that EmoQ can ONLY control your equipment, whereas a human pro can advise you about moving your furniture, or doing wall treatments, or moving your speakers around to more optimum locations... (Of course, you can also learn those things from a good book on room acoustics.) If anyone can match a pro's results with equipment under $1000, and no experience beyond doing their own system, they could be out there making a small fortune with very little investment.
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