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Post by garym on Feb 27, 2013 15:28:57 GMT -5
I hate to pour rain on this parade, but contrary to some of the comments here, EQing an audio system is not akin to rocket science. With a calibrated mic (about $100), REW, and the UMC-200's outstanding parameter control, anyone can do a very satisfactory job.
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Post by rtg97229 on Feb 27, 2013 15:39:17 GMT -5
I hate to pour rain on this parade, but contrary to some of the comments here, EQing an audio system is not akin to rocket science. With a calibrated mic (about $100), REW, and the UMC-200's outstanding parameter control, anyone can do a very satisfactory job. For some people a UMIK-1 and REW is a great solution, one I plan on trying for learning and experience, but it is not for everyone and I suspect that with greater experience a better job of overall calibration can be done than what I could do myself.
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umr
Minor Hero
AccuCal Home Theater Services
Posts: 25
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Post by umr on Feb 27, 2013 15:39:49 GMT -5
I hate to pour rain on this parade, but contrary to some of the comments here, EQing an audio system is not akin to rocket science. With a calibrated mic (about $100), REW, and the UMC-200's outstanding parameter control, anyone can do a very satisfactory job. I find that is not the case. I walk into many theaters where people have used those tools and failed because of my video work. People assume they have their audio right, but that is rarely the case. I have seen a few cases of success, but they are very rare.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 27, 2013 15:59:58 GMT -5
All I see here is that you spent a lot of time trying to calibrate speakers with blown tweeters.
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Post by avaddikt on Feb 27, 2013 16:10:15 GMT -5
In very simple terms, the difference between user tweaking and a professional A/V calibration is real, but If you have not 'been there' you are shooting in the wind with regards to any expectations and results.
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Post by garym on Feb 27, 2013 23:04:21 GMT -5
. . . . but If you have not 'been there' you are shooting in the wind with regards to any expectations and results. I don't understand. Been where? I admit there is a bit of a learning curve (not a steep one) and it is fairly time-consuming. But unless you're assuming your mic is inaccurate (despite being calibrated) or the REW math is flawed, your results should be as good as any pro's.
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Post by billmac on Feb 28, 2013 2:16:34 GMT -5
Well, you have the vocabulary and the hubris, I hope it is not just technical malpropism. Good luck to you in your endeavours. It seems you have quite the vocabulary as well. Oh by the way you might want to check your spelling. It is "malapropism" and "endeavors". If you are going to use big words at least learn to spell them . If I may ask what are your credentials in field of A/V calibration? If those skills are more advanced than Jeff's then you must be a very sought after A/V calibrator . But unless you're assuming your mic is inaccurate (despite being calibrated) or the REW math is flawed, your results should be as good as any pro's. I highly doubt that . I get a real laugh out of those that feel they can do as good a job at calibrating their system as someone who has been doing it for years ;D. With that comes experience, the proper tools and the knowledge to use those tools. Experience and knowledge that I believe the average hobbyist is lacking in. Bill
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Post by sfdoddsy on Feb 28, 2013 2:55:09 GMT -5
I would asumme if one could learn how to use REW you would be able to come close to a pro calibrator's results. When I last use REW about 3 years ago it was somewhat complicated. I'm with Jeff in that it won't be that easy. Working out the right gains and Qs is very time consuming. REW now has an EQ tab which suggest EQ and even does it automatically if you use a MiniDSP, but after trying it out I'm unconvinced. It is way too agressive in the amount of EQ applied and the number of bands - suggesting things like six bands of cut when a shelving filter would be more appropriate. As for the Umik mic, there has been a problem with the latest batch in that they were sent out with incorrect calibration files and no-one is quite sure if the fix is correct either. The calibration supplied (when correct) is also for the mic at 0 degrees (pointed at the sound source) and not for aimed upwards as we use them. How serious this is depends on how you use them, but I was getting really weird results and EQing accordingly until I found they were more accurate with no calibration applied. If I didn't have the Umik, I'd get one of the Cross Spectrum calibrated Dayton mics. I've been able to get similar graphs to those Jeff has displayed using the UMC200 and REW, but it took quite a lot of tweaking.
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Post by richardrc on Feb 28, 2013 3:12:38 GMT -5
Hi Jeff and welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will be able to give members some valuable insight into room acoustics and common pitfalls in this area.
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Post by srrndhound on Feb 28, 2013 7:04:09 GMT -5
REW now has an EQ tab which suggest EQ and even does it automatically if you use a MiniDSP, but after trying it out I'm unconvinced. It is way too agressive in the amount of EQ applied and the number of bands - suggesting things like six bands of cut when a shelving filter would be more appropriate. The UMC-200 does not have shelf filters. The Tag McLaren did (which Mulcahy helped design), so maybe REW would use them if it was told to configure filters for that unit. Or maybe not... But I certainly agree shelving filters are very useful. Not sure why they get ignored in most PEQ units.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 28, 2013 7:45:55 GMT -5
Well, you have the vocabulary and the hubris, I hope it is not just technical malpropism. Good luck to you in your endeavours. It seems you have quite the vocabulary as well. Oh by the way you might want to check your spelling. It is "malapropism" and "endeavors". If you are going to use big words at least learn to spell them . If I may ask what are your credentials in field of A/V calibration? If those skills are more advanced than Jeff's then you must be a very sought after A/V calibrator . But unless you're assuming your mic is inaccurate (despite being calibrated) or the REW math is flawed, your results should be as good as any pro's. I highly doubt that . I get a real laugh out of those that feel they can do as good a job at calibrating their system as someone who has been doing it for years ;D. With that comes experience, the proper tools and the knowledge to use those tools. Experience and knowledge that I believe the average hobbyist is lacking in. Bill As for the spelling, Mr. Spelling Interventionist, endeavour is an accept spelling, English version. Malpropism is indeed spelled wrong; bet you had to look it up! I don't have more experience in calibration of rooms but it is neither beyond my capability nor are the tools to do so out of my reach (or any audiophile's reach, for that matter). My credentials for understanding the issues are 1) BE Youngstown State 1968 major electrical engineering, minor math. 2) 42 years(with the same company ) as a control engineer/managing-working control engineer designing and applying motor and control solutions to varied industrial production lines usually of the web propulsion type requiring intensive knowledge of closed loop design and stability analysis. I, sir, am not the average hobbyist, but any audiophile can, if he so desires use the modern day tools and software to do this type of work for himself; after all, this is a hobby.
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Post by moodyman on Feb 28, 2013 7:46:21 GMT -5
I get a real laugh out of those that feel they can do as good a job at calibrating their system as someone who has been doing it for years ;D. With that comes experience, the proper tools and the knowledge to use those tools. Experience and knowledge that I believe the average hobbyist is lacking in. Bill Dont sell yourself so short...
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Post by billmac on Feb 28, 2013 9:02:41 GMT -5
No I used the spell check provided . I normally do not correct others spelling but the tone of your post that I quoted leads one to do that. You could have used spell check as well but you were in too much of a hurry questioning Jeff's capabilities . That is a fine set of credentials you have there . But it has no bearing in the least as far as questioning the capabilities of an experienced calibrator as Jeff. It seems sometimes there are always some people with a degree in whatever that have the need to challenge others in fields they have no experience in and most likely never will . These people also have the need to wax on about their lofty degrees and fail to show respect to those more knowledgeable in a field they are not. Of course this is a thread started by sacdukeman to discuss the subject of how Jeff calibrated his UMC-200 and how Jeff was impressed with the capabilities of its PEQ. Some have posted in this thread that anyone with basic REW knowledge and a calibrated mic can match the results Jeff attained on their systems. Again I find this quite humorous when someone with basic skills actually thinks they can match the capabilities of someone as experienced as Jeff. It seems that some just can't seem to give credit and respect to someone much more knowledgeable in a field they have at best limited experience. I see this in a few different A/V and music forums I frequent. Recently well known mastering engineer Barry Diament decided to stop posting on the Steve Hoffman music forum due to a select few questioning his skills. Those questioning his skills had minimal to no experience in the field of mastering. It is too bad when this happens as a select few just have to try place themselves at the same level as those with much more knowledge and experience. It ruins it for others that could learn from their experience as these people just stop posting. I also feel it is the Internet that brings these people out as I wonder if they are the same face to face as they are sitting behind a keyboard. I respect and appreciate those that have the skills to work with REW and calibrate their systems. My journey with REW was not a positive one as I did not take the time to learn the program nor did I have a proper calibrated mic. But at the same time these people can not possibly have the skills to calibrate systems with a large variety of different components (specifically processors) that they have no experience with. So for those that think they can match the level of an experienced and knowledgeable calibrator is just fooling themselves IMO. Bill
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Post by avaddikt on Feb 28, 2013 9:12:37 GMT -5
. . . . but If you have not 'been there' you are shooting in the wind with regards to any expectations and results. I don't understand. Been where? I admit there is a bit of a learning curve (not a steep one) and it is fairly time-consuming. But unless you're assuming your mic is inaccurate (despite being calibrated) or the REW math is flawed, your results should be as good as any pro's. I meant those who question the process of a pro-calibration, that have not seen it done first hand, are making assumptions with regards to the value and the expected results. Thanks for making my point, again.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 28, 2013 9:46:11 GMT -5
I did not question umr's skill and experience at A/V calibration. I questioned his posturing that his results are unobtainable by any other human being due to his unique skills, knowledge and custom designed measurement equipment. I would not even have posted into this thread if he had not self proclaimed his super human status.
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Post by billmac on Feb 28, 2013 10:01:51 GMT -5
I did not question umr's skill and experience at A/V calibration. I questioned his posturing that his results are unobtainable by any other human being due to his unique skills, knowledge and custom designed measurement equipment. I would not even have posted into this thread if he had not self proclaimed his super human status. I understand that you questioning these claims but can you offer proof that they are not true? The onus is on you to prove that Jeff's claims are not true as you are the one challenging those claims. Bill
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 28, 2013 10:07:14 GMT -5
I can't and won't argue with a 'true believer'! Logic is not their forte!
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Post by billmac on Feb 28, 2013 10:25:36 GMT -5
I can't and won't argue with a 'true believer'! Logic is not their forte! Well there you have it . No logic involved just the need for you to back up your claims that Jeff's skills and equipment are not unique. If you back up those claims I will gladly accept them but till then they are just your opinion with no facts to support them . Bill
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,002
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Post by KeithL on Feb 28, 2013 10:46:06 GMT -5
I'm going to split the difference on this one: Depending on your room, your speakers, and your personal preferences, equalizing a system to sound the way you want can be very simple or very complicated. Turning down a peak (or turning up a slight dip) is pretty easy, and most people can do it themselves. However, if there are more complex situations that need to be ironed out, then it gets tricky to get things right. In the best case, your room may be just fine with no EQ at all. In the worse case, like if your room is a huge tiled bathroom, or a giant cave with the walls and ceiling carpeted, it may be impossible to make it "good" without actually doing room treatments - maybe hanging some tapestries, or pulling out some of that carpet or adding some pictures or wood panels. If your room is perfect to begin with, then you don't need to run EmoQ, and hiring an expert to tell you it's perfect would be a waste. If your room is really odd, then it may take a lot of personal attention to get it right, and you may not be able to do it by yourself. However, for the majority of people, EmoQ will give you a better result, faster than you could do it manually by yourself. It's that simple. (Nobody's saying that an expert can't do better - at least some of the time.) The parametric EQ controls on the UMC-200 are VERY powerful, and with that power comes the ability to do incredible things, or to mess things up quite successfully (It's not like the old days where you turned the bass and treble up or down until things sounded about right.) If you have a feel for what's going on, the PEQ makes it easy do so just what you want; but, for example, if you want to turn the voice up a bit, you have to have some idea about what center frequency and Q settings to use, or you will end up making changes that will have other (unexpected) results. Think of EmoQ as an autopilot: It's a lot faster and a lot easier than doing a full set of measurements and setting the EQ up yourself (after learning how to do it). It may or may not do quite as good a job as an expert (depending on your starting point), and it won't give you advice about choosing what drapes to add and where to put the couch, but it's sure a lot easier and cheaper than hiring an expert. If you really want to "get into it" yourself, you can buy a decent calibrated microphone (more than accurate enough for room correction) for about $300 - with software. And there are plenty of good books out there on room acoustics. It's not difficult to learn; it's simply a matter of whether you'd prefer to take the time to learn it yourself, or pay someone else to do it for you. Or, you could just use the FREE "expert" that came with your UMC-200 (EmoQ). He does a pretty good job, isn't fussy about when you want to schedule a visit, and works real cheap. I did not question umr's skill and experience at A/V calibration. I questioned his posturing that his results are unobtainable by any other human being due to his unique skills, knowledge and custom designed measurement equipment. I would not even have posted into this thread if he had not self proclaimed his super human status.
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Post by mgbpuff on Feb 28, 2013 10:58:44 GMT -5
It is the realm of the unknowable that I flounder in. When umr walks on water (without trickery of course and with varified and calibrated water surface tensions falling within the norm range), I will join in with billmac's awe of him.
My apologies to the Lounge, I didn't intend to get into a long drawn out harangue with another member.
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