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Post by ronkuper on Jun 27, 2014 9:18:09 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Excited about my first post here! I've been upgrading from entry level whenever the opportunity arises and I feel it is time for some new electronics (Partly because I've been following Emotiva favorably and has just noticed the nice 20% summer discount ) The current players (left from the entry level system) are:
AMP: NAD 355BEE Receiver: Yamaha RX-V767 The NAD is used as a power for the fronts with its preamp jumpers removed (preamp bypass). The Yamaha is used as pre-pro with an HDMI connection from my HTPC and also as an amp for the surround channels. I mostly care about stereo music. The upgrade alternatives I was considering:
1. AMP: 2 x Emotiva XPA-1L (1,198$) 2. Receiver: Emotiva UMC-200 + Emotiva UPA-500 (998$) Option 2 is mainly for the DAC / Pre-Pro upgrade but since the Yamaha is also powering the surrounds I combined it with the UPA-500 (I guess I could then A/B compare the old NAD with the UPA-500 for the fronts as well). So which upgrade path do you think would yield the best sonic improvement? Does it really even matter? System details:
HTPC (Origen ae; Asus B85M-G; i5 4430; 24GB; SSD 500GB; SATA 3TB; diNovo Edge; Win 8.1 Pro; JRiver MC 19) | Fronts: Quadral Platinum M50 | Sub: JL Audio E112 | DSPeaker-Anti-Mode 8033 subwoofer ARC| Center: ELAC 51.2 | Surrounds: Morel SP2 | F. Amp: NAD 355BEE | Receiver: Yamaha RX-V767 Front speaker’s specs from the site (For Amp matching):
Type: 3-way Design principle: pressure chamber/bass Nominal/music power (W): 200/300 W Frequency response (Hz): 23...50.000 Hz Crossover frequency (Hz): 280/2300 Hz Efficiency (dB/1W/1m): 90 dB Impedance (Ohm): 4...8 Tweeter: RiCom-V Midrange: 2 x 135 mm Ø Alu Woofer: 2 x 180 mm Ø Alu Cabinet size (h*w*d): 1127 x 230 x 319 mm Weight: 28,3 kg I sit about 2.5m from the speakers. Current Amp specs from the site:
2 x 80W Continuous Power into 8 ohms 140W, 220W, 270W IHF Dynamic power into 8, 4 and 2 ohms, respectively Rated Distortion (THD 20Hz - 20kHz): 0.02% Damping factor (ref. 8Ω, 50Hz): >160 Voltage gain: 29dB Frequency response; 20Hz-20kHz: +/-0.1dB Signal/noise ratio; ref 1W: 105dB Signal/noise ratio; ref rated power: 124dB PowerDrive™ circuit, Holmgren Toroidal Power transformer, All discrete circuitry, Short signal path from input to output Net Weight 18.75 lbs (8.5kg) Current Receiver specs: uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-v767__g/?mode=modelMany thanks, Ron
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jun 27, 2014 9:20:53 GMT -5
Biggest sonic difference comes from speakers and room treatments. That said, why do you think you need to upgrade? What is missing? If you want to go down the rabbit hole then here is some advice: If you want to concentrate on 2ch, think more along the path of an analog preamp that also lets you loop in your HT setup. Then concentrate on a good source with analog outs. Your HTPC might suffice if you feed its digital out to a good DAC. This lets you isolate your 2ch music from your HT. Of course you will need to figure out if you need your sub for 2ch or not. I think not with those nice fronts you have.
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Post by ronkuper on Jun 27, 2014 9:30:18 GMT -5
I love the quadrals and the E112 plus I've been venturing into RC as well (both passive and active) so I've been taking the 'speakers + room' advice to heart. It is now that I left with electronics which were there from the start before I knew better. So, to be honest it is mostly about what I fear I might be missing than what I find missing at the moment. And... because I have the "bug" That said it would be a disgruntling moment to get the new gear and hear no improvements. That is why I'm asking here. About your suggestions: 1. I hear a lot of electronic music where sub bass is important and the JL is doing a wonderful job there freeing the fronts the amp to deal with upper bass. 2. I am doing all of my speaker configuration and bass management from my HTPC with JRiver (and soon also room correction with Dirac Live) so the old Yamaha is there only as a DAC and an amp for the surrounds. 3. I use HDMI for convenience and believe from recent reading that the jitter issue is a thing of the past (of course open for debate) So to conclude from these - are you suggesting replacing the Receiver (as the DAC) before switching amps is the better option? Is the UMC-200 a good enough replacement in your opinion? Or am I missing the importance of an analog pre? Thanks, Ron
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 27, 2014 9:38:52 GMT -5
rink upper, welcome , so glad you found us. Great group of nuts here but all with equal advice. I have loved Yamaha products for a long long time and the XPA-1Ls are really hard to beat!!! Great combination that would be/ was. bootman offers perfect advice as well, the -1Ls is problably all you'll ever need for amplification. Got to go, see around.
Peace,
Nicck
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Post by ronkuper on Jun 27, 2014 9:45:22 GMT -5
Thanks Nicck! I couldn't decide if you're pro Amp or pro Pro? (For my case of course, not in general) Cheers, Ron
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Post by ludi on Jun 27, 2014 9:50:46 GMT -5
Start with the XPA-1Ls, the rest will follow shortly
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jun 27, 2014 9:53:42 GMT -5
Ron, one other large point!!, Become an e-Club member and get 20% off till July 31 Now that's a deal!!
Nick
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Post by ronkuper on Jun 27, 2014 9:58:43 GMT -5
Thanks Nick, that is sort of the main drive for my sudden interest Ludi - Insightful. My bank account trembled.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2014 10:47:25 GMT -5
I'd agree the XPA-1Ls would be the best 2 channel improvement. If you decide on a multichannel amp consider the UMC-700. Though you may only have 5.1 there are 3 possible reasons: you could biamp your front speakers with the 2 extra channels (if the speakers and processor allow for this), you would have extra channels should you someday want 7.x, the additional power supply in the 700 would be available for whatever channels you did use. Also during the sale the difference is a little less. It is 1U taller (3U) so take that into account.
This is also my answer to your question, amps first. Start with speakers (you have) and work back, also the Yamaha's are well liked around here. But if the UMC-200 is also in your budget nows a good time to buy (just remember 20% off of its list price of $699 - I assume).
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jun 27, 2014 10:47:37 GMT -5
So to sum up if you have the bug...... Start with the amps. Then look into the XSP-1 for your analog preamp. The yamaha is a fine unit for HT duties and you can keep that as is.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 27, 2014 11:11:47 GMT -5
For stereo duties go with a good DAC. Like a DC-1. Unfortunately you will need an XSP-1 to use as HT bypass plus your standalone stereo amps to integrate your sub and your AVR together.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Jun 27, 2014 11:21:37 GMT -5
For stereo duties go with a good DAC. Like a DC-1. Unfortunately you will need an XSP-1 to use as HT bypass plus your standalone stereo amps to integrate your sub and your AVR together. Gar, I didn't see those as an option,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,, and I think you have him much farther down the road. Nice road, I just don't see him there yet. Nick
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Post by garbulky on Jun 27, 2014 11:30:29 GMT -5
For stereo duties go with a good DAC. Like a DC-1. Unfortunately you will need an XSP-1 to use as HT bypass plus your standalone stereo amps to integrate your sub and your AVR together. Gar, I didn't see those as an option,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,, and I think you have him much farther down the road. Nice road, I just don't see him there yet. Nick That;s true. For now I think a UMC-200 and a pair of XPA-1 L's would be nice.
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Post by creimes on Jun 27, 2014 11:49:29 GMT -5
We need to start a thread named "XPA-1L's Just Do It" or am I stealing something from Nike there , I will second, third, forth or fifth it that the XPA-1L's are to die for, I have 3 of them and cannot say enough good things, they're grrrrreat...wait did I just use a cereal slogan now as well, oh well whatever works. Chad Here's a picture for inspiration....
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Post by vinylfreak on Jun 27, 2014 13:09:44 GMT -5
Ron, one other large point!!, Become an e-Club member and get 20% off till July 31 Now that's a deal!! Nick Soooooo......I wonder if they will let you apply that 20% off to the already reduced price on XPA 1-Ls? If so that's a No Brain-er!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2014 14:22:37 GMT -5
Ron, one other large point!!, Become an e-Club member and get 20% off till July 31 Now that's a deal!! Nick Soooooo......I wonder if they will let you apply that 20% off to the already reduced price on XPA 1-Ls? If so that's a No Brain-er!I was wondering that too, has anybody checked?
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Post by ronkuper on Jun 28, 2014 5:31:05 GMT -5
We need to start a thread named "XPA-1L's Just Do It" LOL creimes... It does put some buying pressure on. So guys - from your experience and own opinion and from the specs of my current speakers and amp do you believe there would be an audible improvement in SQ? I do like to listen at reference levels and louder. At the moment I can't tell that the amp is being pushed to its limits but I had nothing to compare it with. (Not even trying to grasp the merits of the 35W Class A... that would be like a bonus) Thanks, Ron
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Post by garbulky on Jun 28, 2014 6:02:41 GMT -5
Just so you know: the XPA-1 L's or XPA-1's are on my GO TO list for next upgrade and I drool over them all the time. It's not just that it's class A but it is a fully balanced setup plus a monoblock with its own power supply per channel to boot. Plus I mean it is designed to be a mini XPA-1! Ron, to be honest I think the amp upgrade will only bring maybe a modest improvement. Even though it's only 80 watts you still have a decent amp unit with you plus you have subs that take the brunt off of the reciever. Reference volume is pretty darn loud. If you do this, you may get some improvement - maybe. You may recieve some better coherence in the soundstage. That was one thing I noticed moving to a better amp (UPA-2 to XPA-2) was that things gelled a bit better going from right to left. Something I would never have noticed if I wasn't able to compare directly. Also as you crank things up, things will stay held together a bit better. You'll notice an ease in delivery. I think the bigges benefits in sound quality I have realized (other than my speakers) is 1. Room treatment. Absolutely. 2. The DC-1. 3. The pre-amp. (XSP-1). The DC-1 however gets very close to the quality of the XSP-1 so unless you are very picky you may be able to get away with just the DC-1. 4. Amp upgrades (to an XPA-2 - and an XPR-2 in a different environment). I also noticed the larger emo amps really liked a good pre-amp in the chain. If your room is already well treated and your speakers are pretty resolving, you may also notice a further bump in quality from your amp upgrade. But imo, if you want two channel - go two channel all the way. A good pre-amp or a DC-1, coupled to a nice power amp can do some good! Unfortunately I know it's more than you want to spend.
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Post by ronkuper on Jun 28, 2014 7:01:24 GMT -5
Thanks for writing gar, it is really helpful. I think I'll try to get a quality >200W power amp for home eval before deciding on the XPA's. About the XSP-1 / DC-1 - I'm not sure I'm ready to separate my 2ch and HT. I used to have a dedicated USB DAC (CA DacMagic) and switching sources when moving from video to audio was somewhat annoying and at the time, with my previous entry level 2-way speakers, I couldn't hear a difference so I sold it. I use only the HTPC as a source for A/V so going out with just HDMI is convenient. I do wish I could A/B some of the stuff you've mentioned though
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Post by garbulky on Jun 28, 2014 7:34:13 GMT -5
Thanks for writing gar, it is really helpful. I think I'll try to get a quality >200W power amp for home eval before deciding on the XPA's. About the XSP-1 / DC-1 - I'm not sure I'm ready to separate my 2ch and HT. I used to have a dedicated USB DAC (CA DacMagic) and switching sources when moving from video to audio was somewhat annoying and at the time, with my previous entry level 2-way speakers, I couldn't hear a difference so I sold it. I use only the HTPC as a source for A/V so going out with just HDMI is convenient. I do wish I could A/B some of the stuff you've mentioned though You are quite welcome. If your preferred choice is 200 w power amp or XPA-1 L while not going for the DAC. I think you should instead go straight for the XPA-1 L's. These can be considered your very last amp and can be used to drive a very wide complement of speakers should you ever decide to upgrade! I say this because I have the UPA-2 and it's a fantastic amp and does about 160 watts per channel to my speakers. And I do wish I had just gone straight for the XPA-1 L's
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