KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 14:54:38 GMT -5
The bass management is done in the digital domain, so the signal is passed through the processor. (This is why analog inputs will be converted to digital.) However, all other processing is disabled/bypassed. And the XMC-1 has a most excellent digital signal path --SNIP----- Direct Mode Direct Mode provides a relatively pure listening experience, and eliminates most processing, but still retains bass management. In Direct Mode: * The output contains the same number of channels as the input signal. * No extra channels are synthesized; if the output channel that corresponds to a given input channel is not present, that channel signal is mixed into the appropriate available channels. * Bass management IS available and the subwoofer IS active. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are available for both analog and digital inputs. * Stereo digital signals are presented directly to the processor. Stereo analog input signals are converted to digital and passed to the processor. Surround sound digital signals are decoded, and passed to the processor. Multi-channel discrete digital signals (like multi-PCM) are passed directly to the processor. * All signals receive bass management - but no other processing. * If an LFE signal is present, and one or two subwoofers are also present, the LFE content will be routed to the subs along with low-frequency content from the main channels (as determined by the bass management settings). --SNIP ----- Direct mode allows you to bypass any processing, but still gives you the option for bass management. The mode can be set per input for audio. Does that mean that it's possible to run stereo subwoofers with bass management at the same time as bypassing any processing for the stereo output?
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Jul 16, 2014 15:02:21 GMT -5
What is the mode called that mimics whatever channels are input but DOES allow DIrac, PEQ, etc to be active? But no channels or DSP is added? Like multichannel PCM simply routed to all appropriate speakers but with Dirac, EQ, etc included?
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 16, 2014 15:04:38 GMT -5
The bass management is done in the digital domain, so the signal is passed through the processor. (This is why analog inputs will be converted to digital.) However, all other processing is disabled/bypassed. And the XMC-1 has a most excellent digital signal path --SNIP----- Direct Mode Direct Mode provides a relatively pure listening experience, and eliminates most processing, but still retains bass management. In Direct Mode: * The output contains the same number of channels as the input signal. * No extra channels are synthesized; if the output channel that corresponds to a given input channel is not present, that channel signal is mixed into the appropriate available channels. * Bass management IS available and the subwoofer IS active. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are available for both analog and digital inputs. * Stereo digital signals are presented directly to the processor. Stereo analog input signals are converted to digital and passed to the processor. Surround sound digital signals are decoded, and passed to the processor. Multi-channel discrete digital signals (like multi-PCM) are passed directly to the processor. * All signals receive bass management - but no other processing. * If an LFE signal is present, and one or two subwoofers are also present, the LFE content will be routed to the subs along with low-frequency content from the main channels (as determined by the bass management settings). --SNIP ----- Does that mean that it's possible to run stereo subwoofers with bass management at the same time as bypassing any processing for the stereo output? Uh bouy, this is going to be an issue, and not just for me. Vinyl people are not going to be happy. Everything gets processed digitally and there is no way around it? None? Really? I know you are who you are and what you do but are you sure? If this is the case, then what the heck is the point of buying a good CD player like the ERC-3 if you are just going to do yet another ADC to DAC conversion? And digitally converting vinyl? Like I said, uh bouy.
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Post by rickhawk on Jul 16, 2014 15:06:05 GMT -5
I'm on the waiting list and will be buying the XMC-1 as soon as they get to me. But I have wondered whether the 2 channel performance will be as good as the XSP-1 when using a subwoofer. I hate to end up having to buy both. My guess is the XSP-1 would sound better with the bass management done in the analog domain. Keith, I would respect your thoughts on this.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 15:10:56 GMT -5
Uhhh... no..... (Direct Mode was the answer to "What mode has no processing, but still offers bass management?") Reference Stereo mode is the "true purist mode". Reference Stereo mode has no digital processing whatsoever (for analog inputs; digital inputs are converted or decoded as necessary)..... In Reference Stereo mode analog input signals are passed directly to the outputs..... without EVER being converted.However, since the bass management is done in the digital domain, Reference Stereo mode doesn't have bass management... --SNIP---- Reference Stereo Mode Reference Stereo Mode provides the purest listening experience, with the fewest options for processing or modifying the signal. In Reference Stereo Mode: * The output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO. * There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims. * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual Parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are active for digital inputs but not for analog inputs. * Stereo analog input signals are passed straight to the Volume Control and the outputs. * Stereo digital input signals are converted to analog then sent to the Volume Control. * Surround sound digital signals are decoded, mixed down to stereo (the Center Channel and LFE signals, if present, are mixed into the stereo output), and converted to analog. --SNIP---- There is also a separate "bypass mode" for the 7.1 channel analog inputs - which are always routed directly to the output - and so don't have bass management or any other processing. The bass management is done in the digital domain, so the signal is passed through the processor. (This is why analog inputs will be converted to digital.) However, all other processing is disabled/bypassed. And the XMC-1 has a most excellent digital signal path --SNIP----- Direct Mode Direct Mode provides a relatively pure listening experience, and eliminates most processing, but still retains bass management. In Direct Mode: * The output contains the same number of channels as the input signal. * No extra channels are synthesized; if the output channel that corresponds to a given input channel is not present, that channel signal is mixed into the appropriate available channels. * Bass management IS available and the subwoofer IS active. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are available for both analog and digital inputs. * Stereo digital signals are presented directly to the processor. Stereo analog input signals are converted to digital and passed to the processor. Surround sound digital signals are decoded, and passed to the processor. Multi-channel discrete digital signals (like multi-PCM) are passed directly to the processor. * All signals receive bass management - but no other processing. * If an LFE signal is present, and one or two subwoofers are also present, the LFE content will be routed to the subs along with low-frequency content from the main channels (as determined by the bass management settings). --SNIP ----- Uh bouy, this is going to be an issue, and not just for me. Vinyl people are not going to be happy. Everything gets processed digitally and there is no way around it? None? Really? I know you are who you are and what you do but are you sure? If this is the case, then what the heck is the point of buying a good CD player like the ERC-3 if you are just going to do yet another ADC to DAC conversion? And digitally converting vinyl? Like I said, uh bouy.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jul 16, 2014 15:11:07 GMT -5
Will an IP control document be available at some future point so those of us that want to create our own PC/MAC control programs can do it?
I've started preliminary work in Python for this application - It will work on PC or MAC!
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Post by talkinghead on Jul 16, 2014 15:14:26 GMT -5
The bass management is done in the digital domain, so the signal is passed through the processor. (This is why analog inputs will be converted to digital.) However, all other processing is disabled/bypassed. And the XMC-1 has a most excellent digital signal path --SNIP----- Direct Mode Direct Mode provides a relatively pure listening experience, and eliminates most processing, but still retains bass management. In Direct Mode: * The output contains the same number of channels as the input signal. * No extra channels are synthesized; if the output channel that corresponds to a given input channel is not present, that channel signal is mixed into the appropriate available channels. * Bass management IS available and the subwoofer IS active. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are available for both analog and digital inputs. * Stereo digital signals are presented directly to the processor. Stereo analog input signals are converted to digital and passed to the processor. Surround sound digital signals are decoded, and passed to the processor. Multi-channel discrete digital signals (like multi-PCM) are passed directly to the processor. * All signals receive bass management - but no other processing. * If an LFE signal is present, and one or two subwoofers are also present, the LFE content will be routed to the subs along with low-frequency content from the main channels (as determined by the bass management settings). --SNIP ----- Uh bouy, this is going to be an issue, and not just for me. Vinyl people are not going to be happy. Everything gets processed digitally and there is no way around it? None? Really? I know you are who you are and what you do but are you sure? If this is the case, then what the heck is the point of buying a good CD player like the ERC-3 if you are just going to do yet another ADC to DAC conversion? And digitally converting vinyl? Like I said, uh bouy. Yes that's exactly my point also, I was hoping that it was possible to route a pure analog signal from input to output without any AD/DA conversion otherwise I must have a separate preamp with HT bypass. Is there any other "pure" analog mode or is it just Direct Mode and that mode does AD/DA conversion?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 15:16:47 GMT -5
You want Reference Stereo mode... (see my reply from one minute ago ) Uh bouy, this is going to be an issue, and not just for me. Vinyl people are not going to be happy. Everything gets processed digitally and there is no way around it? None? Really? I know you are who you are and what you do but are you sure? If this is the case, then what the heck is the point of buying a good CD player like the ERC-3 if you are just going to do yet another ADC to DAC conversion? And digitally converting vinyl? Like I said, uh bouy. Yes that's exactly my point also, I was hoping that it was possible to route a pure analog signal from input to output without any AD/DA conversion otherwise I must have a separate preamp with HT bypass. Is there any other "pure" analog mode or is it just Direct Mode and that mode does AD/DA conversion?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 15:17:24 GMT -5
Yes, we'll be publishing that information soon.... Will an IP control document be available at some future point so those of us that want to create our own PC/MAC control programs can do it? I've started preliminary work in Python for this application - It will work on PC or MAC!
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Post by talkinghead on Jul 16, 2014 15:18:45 GMT -5
You want Reference Stereo mode... (see my reply from one minute ago ) Yes that's exactly my point also, I was hoping that it was possible to route a pure analog signal from input to output without any AD/DA conversion otherwise I must have a separate preamp with HT bypass. Is there any other "pure" analog mode or is it just Direct Mode and that mode does AD/DA conversion? Yes I just missed that , you are to fast for me. That's great for us vinyl freaks!
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 16, 2014 15:20:16 GMT -5
Uhhh... no..... (Direct Mode was the answer to "What mode has no processing, but still offers bass management?") Reference Stereo mode is the "true purist mode". Reference Stereo mode has no digital processing whatsoever (for analog inputs; digital inputs are converted or decoded as necessary)..... In Reference Stereo mode analog input signals are passed directly to the outputs..... without EVER being converted.However, since the bass management is done in the digital domain, Reference Stereo mode doesn't have bass management... --SNIP---- Reference Stereo Mode Reference Stereo Mode provides the purest listening experience, with the fewest options for processing or modifying the signal. In Reference Stereo Mode: * The output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO. * There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims. * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual Parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are active for digital inputs but not for analog inputs. * Stereo analog input signals are passed straight to the Volume Control and the outputs. * Stereo digital input signals are converted to analog then sent to the Volume Control. * Surround sound digital signals are decoded, mixed down to stereo (the Center Channel and LFE signals, if present, are mixed into the stereo output), and converted to analog. --SNIP---- Uh bouy, this is going to be an issue, and not just for me. Vinyl people are not going to be happy. Everything gets processed digitally and there is no way around it? None? Really? I know you are who you are and what you do but are you sure? If this is the case, then what the heck is the point of buying a good CD player like the ERC-3 if you are just going to do yet another ADC to DAC conversion? And digitally converting vinyl? Like I said, uh bouy. Schwew!!! That's a relief. You had me going there. It's a matter of your terms being different than what I'm used to. "Direct" mode on all other equipment I've seen is the purist mode. "Stereo" mode allows for things like treble and bass adjustment. You guys have it the opposite. But, what about the 7.1 analog input? That too should have a way of not receiving processing. Like what if I hook in a great sounding player like the Oppo 105. I don't want those signals converted. What would be the point? Is that possible? What's that setting called? Hmmmmm, and aren't there many vinyl people out there that like to do 2.1 listening (like say people with Maggies), so an analog bass management system is going to be missed.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 15:26:24 GMT -5
The purist mode is "Reference Stereo mode"; we have a regular "Stereo mode" as well.... and an "All Stereo mode".... The 7.1 channel analog inputs can ONLY be run in "pure bypass" mode... which also includes no bass management, no conversions, and no processing... The manual will be online (very) shortly Uhhh... no..... (Direct Mode was the answer to "What mode has no processing, but still offers bass management?") Reference Stereo mode is the "true purist mode". Reference Stereo mode has no digital processing whatsoever (for analog inputs; digital inputs are converted or decoded as necessary)..... In Reference Stereo mode analog input signals are passed directly to the outputs..... without EVER being converted.However, since the bass management is done in the digital domain, Reference Stereo mode doesn't have bass management... --SNIP---- Reference Stereo Mode Reference Stereo Mode provides the purest listening experience, with the fewest options for processing or modifying the signal. In Reference Stereo Mode: * The output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO. * There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer. * You CANNOT use the Loudness Control, or the Tone Controls, or the Tone Trims. * You CANNOT use Dirac or the manual Parametric EQ Presets. * Level Trims, which operate in the analog domain, are still available. * Speaker Distance adjustments are active for digital inputs but not for analog inputs. * Stereo analog input signals are passed straight to the Volume Control and the outputs. * Stereo digital input signals are converted to analog then sent to the Volume Control. * Surround sound digital signals are decoded, mixed down to stereo (the Center Channel and LFE signals, if present, are mixed into the stereo output), and converted to analog. --SNIP---- Schwew!!! That's a relief. You had me going there. It's a matter of your terms being different than what I'm used to. "Direct" mode on all other equipment I've seen is the purist mode. "Stereo" mode allows for things like treble and bass adjustment. You guys have it the opposite. But, what about the 7.1 analog input? That too should have a way of not receiving processing. Like what if I hook in a great sounding player like the Oppo 105. I don't want those signals converted. What would be the point? Is that possible? What's that setting called? Hmmmmm, and aren't there many vinyl people out there that like to do 2.1 listening (like say people with Maggies), so an analog bass management system is going to be missed.
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Post by chaosrv on Jul 16, 2014 15:30:08 GMT -5
I do love a good a$$ Sometimes I can't help myself.. but then again, I don't really want to.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 16, 2014 15:32:43 GMT -5
The purist mode is "Reference Stereo mode"; we have a regular "Stereo mode" as well.... and an "All Stereo mode".... The 7.1 channel analog inputs can ONLY be run in "pure bypass" mode... which also includes no bass management, no conversions, and no processing... The manual will be online (very) shortly ] Yeah, that manual will help a lot I'm sure. Wow, it's only day 1 and we've already found out this thing has modes coming out of it's modes. Is there a "mother-in-law" mode?
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Post by rickhawk on Jul 16, 2014 15:37:38 GMT -5
So if I want 2 channel plus the subwoofer with no processing I will be needing the XSP-1 as in addition to the XMC-1?
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Post by rickhawk on Jul 16, 2014 15:48:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry Keith I missed the post about Direct Mode having bass management and "a relatively pure listening experience".
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Post by talkinghead on Jul 16, 2014 15:49:03 GMT -5
So if I want 2 channel plus the subwoofer with no processing I will be needing the XSP-1 as in addition to the XMC-1? Yes I had also wanted to be able to use my subwoofers in the pure analog mode.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 16, 2014 15:54:39 GMT -5
So if I want 2 channel plus the subwoofer with no processing I will be needing the XSP-1 as in addition to the XMC-1? I fully second this question...it looks like the reference stereo mode will not send anything out the sub out. True? The Direct will, but we have to do through A/D conversion of any analog in's. I would like to play my TT through the XMC-1, not have it go through any A/D conversion, and still have my sub enabled. So, unless I am missing something - to do that, I'd need to keep my XSP-1. Right? Or not... Mark
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Post by msamblanet on Jul 16, 2014 16:02:11 GMT -5
So if I want 2 channel plus the subwoofer with no processing I will be needing the XSP-1 as in addition to the XMC-1? I fully second this question...it looks like the reference stereo mode will not send anything out the sub out. True? The Direct will, but we have to do through A/D conversion of any analog in's. I would like to play my TT through the XMC-1, not have it go through any A/D conversion, and still have my sub enabled. So, unless I am missing something - to do that, I'd need to keep my XSP-1. Right? Or not... The XSP-1 uses a circuit with an exposed trim adjustment on the back to adjust the analog circuit for the crossovers. The XMC-1 is a digital pre/pro and has no such trim to adjust an analog crossover, so I would not expect it to do any crossover work for the subs without converting to the digital domain. I personally can't think of any digital pre/pro that supports this...every one I can think of does all processing in the digital domain.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2014 16:08:34 GMT -5
In order to provide complete bass management in the analog domain, a device would have to have a full set of analog bass management circuitry (for a surround pre/pro this would have to be in addition to the digital bass management, which is necessary for surround sound). The XSP-1 certainly would do an excellent job of providing this functionality, but you may not need something that complicated to do the job. Also, since using a sub requires low-pass filters for the subs, and high-pass filters for the main channels, it really cannot be considered to be a purist mode ( ALL filters produce phase shift and other alterations to the audio signal). HOWEVER, there are other alternatives, depending on exactly what your needs are.... If your main speakers are really full range, and you are dead set on analog bass management, and your subs have their own low-pass filters (which many do), then you can just connect the subs to whichever set of main outputs on the XMC-1 you aren't using for your main amps, and use the crossover controls on the subs to limit their high-frequency response to match with your mains. If your subs lack their own low-pass filters, you could still do this, but add a set of passive low-pass filters between them and the XMC-1 (HLabs makes decent little passive crossover "bullet" adapters for about $30 a pair - which you can buy at Parts Express.) But, before I'd even consider doing something like that, I'd try the XMC-1 in direct mode - where you still get bass management. The XMC-1 has a ridiculously good sounding digital signal path, and I'm not at all convinced that letting the XMC-1 do digital bass management would really produce a significant loss of audio quality (remember that adding more equipment and interconnects to the signal path, even equipment as good as the XSP-1, will produce some slight loss of signal quality). The XMC-1 really is that good; I would try it before going out and adding more equipment to your signal path (and deleting more money from your wallet) So if I want 2 channel plus the subwoofer with no processing I will be needing the XSP-1 as in addition to the XMC-1? Yes I had also wanted to be able to use my subwoofers in the pure analog mode.
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