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Post by highfihoney on Oct 18, 2015 17:10:14 GMT -5
...On a site where most members use budget gear & subwoofers to achieve full range sound the last thing i expected to see posted was an elitist thread talking about all the geezers dying off so vinyl can be finished , sad ! THANK YOU, highfihoney !!! I was bored to tears with the Lounge and thought I'd toss a log on the fire in hopes of some interesting dialogue! You're right, of course, and even though I'm not a vinylista, I can appreciate those who want to go that way. At its best, vinyl can be intoxicating, and it doesn't even require that much of an investment to get there. Out of curiosity, however, may I ask as to how "vinyl is the only way to hear three channel recordings?" You do know that much of the Living Stereo series is being remastered on SACD in its original 3-channel format? Boom Hey boom , yeah im aware of some of the old 2 & 3 channel stuff being remastered but i cant see that being an accurate & viable replacement for the LP version , the 2 & 3 channel recordings Masters are all on Magnetic tape thats 70 plus years old & subject to high degradation of the original source material , then you add in the wear to the heads of the ancient 8 & 16 track tape machines still used to make digital copies & the opportunities for lost source material are endless . |
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Post by qdtjni on Oct 18, 2015 17:13:58 GMT -5
Vinyl rocks!  But so does digital. |
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Post by jmilton on Oct 18, 2015 17:31:45 GMT -5
You can not capture the range of a digital recording on vinyl, but you can capture all of an analog recording to digital.
(I symbolically drop the mic and walk away)
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Post by mountain on Oct 18, 2015 18:08:07 GMT -5
Sorry people, I'm still laughing at this analogy! |
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Post by vneal on Oct 18, 2015 18:28:46 GMT -5
Vinyl is to digital as
Klipsch is to Bowers & Wilkins
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Post by adaboy on Oct 18, 2015 19:23:17 GMT -5
You can not capture the range of a digital recording on vinyl, but you can capture all of an analog recording to digital. (I symbolically drop the mic and walk away) Depends.... CD quality? Yes High res? No Loved the mic drop though! Frequency response example. |
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Post by highfihoney on Oct 18, 2015 21:04:08 GMT -5
You can not capture the range of a digital recording on vinyl, but you can capture all of an analog recording to digital. (I symbolically drop the mic and walk away) In theory yes but in reality no because of tape & studio engineers preferences, unless your listening to a recording made fairly recently of a band in the studio chances are your listening to a remastered copy of the original recording made on tape . A quick copy & paste below explains why many of us old vinyl cats are not satisfied with the digitally remastered copies of our 1st pressing LP's . Remastered audio has been the subject of criticism.[2][3] Many remastered CDs from the late 1990s onwards have been affected by the "loudness war", where the average volume of the recording is increased at the expense of clarity and dynamic range, making the remastered version sound louder at regular listening volume than an uncompressed version.[2][3] Some have also criticized the overuse of noise reduction in the remastering process, as it affects not only the noise, but the signal too, and can leave audible artifacts.[4][5] Equalisation can change the character of a recording noticeably. As EQ decisions are a matter of taste to some degree, they are often the subject of criticism. Mastering engineers such as Steve Hoffman have noted that using flat EQ on a mastering allows listeners to adjust the EQ on their equipment to their own preference, but mastering a release with a certain EQ means that it may not be possible to get a recording to sound right on high end equipment.[2][3] I use cd more than vinyl for the convience but for anybody to say digital copies are uniformly superior to vinyl that person isnt looking at the remastering process all that well . |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 19, 2015 7:09:08 GMT -5
When digital cameras were relatively new (but not uncommon), my brother in law decided he was going to be a photographer (after spending half his life getting a Masters in English). He probably read some similar post at the time (when T1 was fast for Internet access), except it might have read 'Digital camera will never capture the true warmth and natural colors of film'. He bought a film camera and took pictures like mad, spending money like he had a job on film and developing. He occasionally captured something interesting, but most were just nice pictures of his kids.
A couple years later I went to Niagra Falls and borrowed a digital camera from work, I took a few dozen shots and had a good time. When I showed the photos to him on my monitor he sat mesmerized and exclaimed 'wow, these are really good'. To me they were nice, but nothing a skilled photographer would appreciate. He kept plugging away, but I had planted the seed, that one, digital photography could be pretty good, and two, this might not be his calling. Now he fancies himself a web site developer, I think he's even had a couple clients (though his wife still puts food on the table).
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Post by jmilton on Oct 19, 2015 7:31:58 GMT -5
I have said before that if you have a vinyl disc and make a 44.1kHz/16 bit copy of that analog vinyl disc, the sound will be indistinguishable from the original. This is because with vinyl or a tape recorder, you have a limited scope recording (vinyl and tape has limited everything relative to a CD) and capturing that limited recording on a CD is easy. The opposite isn’t true.
A live event, recorded on a high resolution system, cannot be accurately copied on a lower resolution system such as a tape recorder or vinyl record.
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Post by vcautokid on Oct 19, 2015 8:28:15 GMT -5
That kind of works until the artist insists on 2 track analog master for a certain sound.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 19, 2015 9:27:24 GMT -5
I have said before that if you have a vinyl disc and make a 44.1kHz/16 bit copy of that analog vinyl disc, the sound will be indistinguishable from the original. This is because with vinyl or a tape recorder, you have a limited scope recording (vinyl and tape has limited everything relative to a CD) and capturing that limited recording on a CD is easy. The opposite isn’t true. A live event, recorded on a high resolution system, cannot be accurately copied on a lower resolution system such as a tape recorder or vinyl record. I think one huge part of the equation is just like vinyl....a digital copy has to be played back. And that decoding HAS to become part of the equation. In Vinyl you could (if done right) have anlog to analog. And even then the cartridge and all other components matter. But there are no filters, ringings etc though there are other distortions. But depending on the DAC you can have different charactertics of sound. Even if the storage is "perfect" the playback of it must be considered or it is useless. For instance the large majority of affordable DACs currently use a 1 bit delta sigma method. And this is not decoding at 16 bits. Now granted it's very CLOSE or the SNR is great but that is just one instance of the playback bieng a largge part of that. Until Schiit came around the cheapest GOOD multibit DAC was the ladder DAC at $10K. Then we gotta consider the other kind of 5k dacs. All these have to be considered as part of the equation. For instance if the only good true decoding of digital is the DCS ring DAC, well then it's effectively useless to compare as the majority of the audio enthusiasts will not be able to use it. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 19, 2015 9:39:13 GMT -5
...I think he's even had a couple clients (though his wife still puts food on the table). An interesting, story, thank you. MANY folks think that when they retire they'll become a consultant and make twice the money doing less work. It doesn't work that way. To run a business, you have to have not only a product or service that customers want, but also an advantage that makes clients want you instead of your competition. You also have to be able to market, keep up with the licensing, insurance, and legal requirements. You also have to be able to budget and ensure that you make a profit. And that budgeting must include money for continuing education so that you remain at the cutting edge of your profession. These multiple skills are not something that most people possess, especially if you've spent the last 20 years plus working for a single employer. You also have to understand that you get no medical leave, no medical insurance, no paid vacation, and no benefits. Now, that said, life is too short to keep doing something you hate - but you have to understand that even the best job in the world will include some tasks that you're going to hate. If you're a young person, you're further behind the curve. You have less experience, less social skill, and your parents' support of you through your educational years has led you to expect a far, far higher standard of living than what you'll be able to achieve on your own. The local utility company recently announced that 62% of their workforce was eligible for immediate retirement, and that they were having great difficulty hiring replacements. The HR manager stated that when he explained to the job applicants that the work included having to climb power poles in the rain to reconnect wiring, the applicants' attitude was "Isn't there an app for that?" But I digress... AudioHTIT - Print this email and show it to your brother-in-law. He needs to earn a living for a while before he considers freelancing. The discipline of the workplace will prepare him for the (much harder) discipline needed to run his own business. Having an occasional client while your spouse puts food on the table is not a feasible life choice, and unless he realizes that, his "business" (as well as his marriage) are probably on borrowed time. |
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Post by adaboy on Oct 19, 2015 9:56:48 GMT -5
...I think he's even had a couple clients (though his wife still puts food on the table). An interesting, story, thank you. MANY folks think that when they retire they'll become a consultant and make twice the money doing less work. It doesn't work that way. To run a business, you have to have not only a product or service that customers want, but also an advantage that makes clients want you instead of your competition. You also have to be able to market, keep up with the licensing, insurance, and legal requirements. You also have to be able to budget and ensure that you make a profit. And that budgeting must include money for continuing education so that you remain at the cutting edge of your profession. These multiple skills are not something that most people possess, especially if you've spent the last 20 years plus working for a single employer. You also have to understand that you get no medical leave, no medical insurance, no paid vacation, and no benefits. Now, that said, life is too short to keep doing something you hate - but you have to understand that even the best job in the world will include some tasks that you're going to hate. If you're a young person, you're further behind the curve. You have less experience, less social skill, and your parents' support of you through your educational years has led you to expect a far, far higher standard of living than what you'll be able to achieve on your own. The local utility company recently announced that 62% of their workforce was eligible for immediate retirement, and that they were having great difficulty hiring replacements. The HR manager stated that when he explained to the job applicants that the work included having to climb power poles in the rain to reconnect wiring, the applicants' attitude was "Isn't there an app for that?" But I digress... AudioHTIT - Print this email and show it to your brother-in-law. He needs to earn a living for a while before he considers freelancing. The discipline of the workplace will prepare him for the (much harder) discipline needed to run his own business. Having an occasional client while your spouse puts food on the table is not a feasible life choice, and unless he realizes that, his "business" (as well as his marriage) are probably on borrowed time. Ouch! That was the coldest hardest bit of truth to swallow. You're sooo right about it too! My wife wants me to start my own business but the things you've listed are the reasons I've been reluctant. Borrowed time... (Man that hits home) |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 19, 2015 12:47:19 GMT -5
...I think he's even had a couple clients (though his wife still puts food on the table). An interesting, story, thank you. MANY folks think that when they retire they'll become a consultant and make twice the money doing less work. It doesn't work that way. To run a business, you have to have not only a product or service that customers want, but also an advantage that makes clients want you instead of your competition. You also have to be able to market, keep up with the licensing, insurance, and legal requirements. You also have to be able to budget and ensure that you make a profit. And that budgeting must include money for continuing education so that you remain at the cutting edge of your profession. These multiple skills are not something that most people possess, especially if you've spent the last 20 years plus working for a single employer. You also have to understand that you get no medical leave, no medical insurance, no paid vacation, and no benefits. Now, that said, life is too short to keep doing something you hate - but you have to understand that even the best job in the world will include some tasks that you're going to hate. If you're a young person, you're further behind the curve. You have less experience, less social skill, and your parents' support of you through your educational years has led you to expect a far, far higher standard of living than what you'll be able to achieve on your own. The local utility company recently announced that 62% of their workforce was eligible for immediate retirement, and that they were having great difficulty hiring replacements. The HR manager stated that when he explained to the job applicants that the work included having to climb power poles in the rain to reconnect wiring, the applicants' attitude was "Isn't there an app for that?" But I digress... AudioHTIT - Print this email and show it to your brother-in-law. He needs to earn a living for a while before he considers freelancing. The discipline of the workplace will prepare him for the (much harder) discipline needed to run his own business. Having an occasional client while your spouse puts food on the table is not a feasible life choice, and unless he realizes that, his "business" (as well as his marriage) are probably on borrowed time. Great post Boomzilla, all excellent points, some people just aren't cut out to work for themselves. I did it for a while and enjoyed it, but realized that the 'overhead' work you describe, took too much away from the 'fun' part. I found I was much better in an environment where someone told me what they needed and let me run after a solution. I have another friend who has always had the entrepreneurial spirit, but his ideas always got the best of him. He's a very sharp guy and in the right environment would be a great part of someone else's team, but he's too set on his own way and won't just go work for someone. I worry about him, but his kids are sharp too, so I hope they'll take care of him. As for my BIL, it's too late for him. I think he's messed up one of his kids too, but I'll keep an open mind and hope she pulls through, her younger sister holds the most promise and may show them all (and when the kids are out of the house his wife may send him packing). Working for yourself is a formidable challenge, and working for someone else can be very liberating, each of us have to find what kind of space we fit in. |
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Post by yves on Oct 19, 2015 14:04:39 GMT -5
I have said before that if you have a vinyl disc and make a 44.1kHz/16 bit copy of that analog vinyl disc, the sound will be indistinguishable from the original. But does it really matter that you have said it before when, as a matter of fact, what you have said is hogwash because I am able to tell the difference in a correctly level matched ABX test, and am able to do so very easily and very quickly with most musical content? |
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Post by drtrey3 on Oct 19, 2015 15:02:17 GMT -5
I record vinyl all the time. I know just how it sounds at different sampling rates and bit depths through my system.
24 bit makes a bigger difference than higher sampling rates in terms of preserving the glorious sound of vinyl. For an average sounding record, I use 24 bit 48, the sampling rate just to remind me it is a 24 bit file. If it is a hugely compressed record, I use cd quality. If it is wonderful sounding, I use 24/96. And at 24/96, the digits capture a good 90% of the magic, which is good enough for me.
Trey
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Post by jmilton on Oct 19, 2015 15:03:35 GMT -5
I have said before that if you have a vinyl disc and make a 44.1kHz/16 bit copy of that analog vinyl disc, the sound will be indistinguishable from the original. But does it really matter that you have said it before when, as a matter of fact, what you have said is hogwash because I am able to tell the difference in a correctly level matched ABX test, and am able to do so very easily and very quickly with most musical content? To which I say, Poppycock! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 19, 2015 15:07:44 GMT -5
Vinyl is to digital as Klipsch is to Bowers & Wilkins You didn't actually think that you'd get away with THAT without some come-back, did you? LOL I'd put a 1970's vintage K-Horn up against any (ANY) B&W ever made. The K-Horn would whip the B&W like the chi-hua-hua dog it is in the following areas: Dynamics (duh) Verisimilitude of treble instruments (particularly cymbals) Efficiency Low distortion (particularly Transient Intermodulation [TIM] distortion) Ultimate loudness capability These aren't opinions (except maybe the second one), but measurable facts. So maybe we should say that dross is to gold as B&W is to Klipsch? |
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geebo
Emo VIPs 
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,204
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Post by geebo on Oct 19, 2015 15:54:55 GMT -5
Vinyl is to digital as Klipsch is to Bowers & Wilkins You didn't actually think that you'd get away with THAT without some come-back, did you? LOL I'd put a 1970's vintage K-Horn up against any (ANY) B&W ever made. The K-Horn would whip the B&W like the chi-hua-hua dog it is in the following areas: Dynamics (duh) Verisimilitude of treble instruments (particularly cymbals) Efficiency Low distortion (particularly Transient Intermodulation [TIM] distortion) Ultimate loudness capability These aren't opinions (except maybe the second one), but measurable facts. So maybe we should say that dross is to gold as B&W is to Klipsch? I've always thought the Klipshorns to be overly bright and very fatiguing. But that's me. |
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Post by brubacca on Oct 19, 2015 15:57:43 GMT -5
So Boomzilla, you would be against me acquiring the RP6 that I am about to get?
It's all good!
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