novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Apr 25, 2016 17:41:44 GMT -5
What do you mean you'll have a separate two channel and AVR? Are the two systems going to be hooked up to the same speakers somehow? Are they going to be in separate rooms? For stereo, the Oppo's analog XLR outs will go to a preamp & then to the XPA-2. Axiom M-100s & Subs active. For HT, the Oppo's HDMI out (#2) will go to an AVR. To watch a movie, I'll unplug the XPA-2 wires (at the Axioms) & plug in the AVR's R/L Front wires. The Center & Surround channels will remain connected to the AVR at all times. For movie use, no subs active (yes, I know it's heresy), but the wife doesn't like loud impacts during movies & the big Axioms are sufficient. No need to unplug and plug in, why not a simple switch? Two feeds with one set of speakers, just switch the feed. Its a lot simpler then taking any chance woth the speaker connections.
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Post by yves on Apr 25, 2016 17:47:25 GMT -5
I'm happy with my Airmotiv 5 surrounds plugged into my UMC-200, and I also like the fact the ventilation holes in the UMC-200 are located behind my separate stereo DAC that's standing on top of my UMC-200. Yamaha AVRs sound a little too muddy and bright for my taste.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Apr 25, 2016 17:51:18 GMT -5
I believe we are heading down the same path my friend, im wanting a Sterio system with tubes and don't need subs, and a HT sytem that utilizes the same main speakers.
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 25, 2016 17:51:59 GMT -5
Yamaha AVRs sound a little too muddy and bright for my taste. Thank heavens, I thought I was the only one Cheers Gary
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 25, 2016 18:17:09 GMT -5
Yamaha AVRs sound a little too muddy and bright for my taste. Thank heavens, I thought I was the only one Cheers Gary It depends on the model a bit, doesn't it... I've heard the bottom, top, and intermediate Yamaha models in my own home (and reviewed some of them recently). One of the best-sounding AVRs I've ever heard (ever) was the bottom of the line Yamaha. It had to warm up to sound sweet, but sweet it sounded - almost as good as separates (really). Why that one sounded so good I don't know. I speculate that it had to do with the simplicity of the output devices, but that's just a theory. The top of the line Yamaha sounded good enough that at would compete with may separates (really). in its bypass mode, and fully warm, it sounded very much like my Emotiva rig. If it gave up anything, it was in the midrange, where it sounded slightly (but only) less dynamic than the Emo gear. The midrange Yamaha wasn't as great. Certainly not bad - more than good enough for movies - but it just didn't have the openness and sweetness of the entry level nor the bass clarity of the top model. Yamaha, IMHO, is one of the best of the Japanese AVR makers - Better than Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, etc. The only AVR I've heard that consistently spanks Yamaha is Arcam. And the Arcam products have far less features and far higher prices in comparison to Yamaha. Lots of folks disagree with this assessment, but were I to pay my own money for an AVR, it'd be a Yamaha or the Arcam.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 25, 2016 18:22:44 GMT -5
If the Oppo's to be used as the "preamp" for the system, it'll be fine for movies, but slightly substandard for stereo. I think (speculating again) that the output buffers in the Oppo are not as robust and dynamic as those in a high-quality, dedicated preamp. The digital volume control (so bad in theory) doesn't seem to do much damage to the signal though. So one of several options on the main R/L signals coming from the Oppo:
A tube buffer could not only improve the soundstage, but also load the Oppo's girly outputs in a manner that they'd be less stressed. A passive volume control (or inline attenuator) could keep the Oppo working in the upper end of its range, minimizing bit loss.
These could be used individually or in combination to provide a "preamp effect" without actually having one. OTOH, a tube preamp between the Oppo & the power amp could also do the job.
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 25, 2016 18:35:41 GMT -5
Thank heavens, I thought I was the only one It depends on the model a bit, doesn't it... I've heard the bottom, top, and intermediate Yamaha models in my own home (and reviewed some of them recently). One of the best-sounding AVRs I've ever heard (ever) was the bottom of the line Yamaha. It had to warm up to sound sweet, but sweet it sounded - almost as good as separates (really). Why that one sounded so good I don't know. I speculate that it had to do with the simplicity of the output devices, but that's just a theory. The top of the line Yamaha sounded good enough that at would compete with may separates (really). in its bypass mode, and fully warm, it sounded very much like my Emotiva rig. If it gave up anything, it was in the midrange, where it sounded slightly (but only) less dynamic than the Emo gear. The midrange Yamaha wasn't as great. Certainly not bad - more than good enough for movies - but it just didn't have the openness and sweetness of the entry level nor the bass clarity of the top model. Yamaha, IMHO, is one of the best of the Japanese AVR makers - Better than Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, etc. The only AVR I've heard that consistently spanks Yamaha is Arcam. And the Arcam products have far less features and far higher prices in comparison to Yamaha. Lots of folks disagree with this assessment, but were I to pay my own money for an AVR, it'd be a Yamaha or the Arcam. The only decent hifi/HT retail outlet in Sydney (2 hours drive from my place) is the biggest Yamaha dealer in Australia and he's always trying to get me into a Yamaha AVR. As a result I've tried pretty much every model for the last 20 years, with every combination of speakers at his disposal. As yet I haven't found one that I'd ever consider. He's tried the blind tests a number of times, 'cause he recons I prejudging. To me they all have that Yamaha house sound and it's not to my tastes. I spent a whole afternoon early last year (let's face it, I'm not going to drive for 4 hours and spend 10 minutes there) listening along with some of his customers and the ones that liked it commonly were tube stereo people looking for a HT AVR. Possibly used to and/or liking the muddy bass. One guy even brought his own pair of Paradigm speakers in to listen, he walked out with a top of the line Yamaha AVR plus a centre and surrounds matching his front pair. I had a feeling that he would like it because he had a McIntosh tube pre amp in his stereo set up. I won a bottle of Jim Beam on that bet Cheers Gary
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Apr 25, 2016 19:06:13 GMT -5
It depends on the model a bit, doesn't it... I've heard the bottom, top, and intermediate Yamaha models in my own home (and reviewed some of them recently). One of the best-sounding AVRs I've ever heard (ever) was the bottom of the line Yamaha. It had to warm up to sound sweet, but sweet it sounded - almost as good as separates (really). Why that one sounded so good I don't know. I speculate that it had to do with the simplicity of the output devices, but that's just a theory. The top of the line Yamaha sounded good enough that at would compete with may separates (really). in its bypass mode, and fully warm, it sounded very much like my Emotiva rig. If it gave up anything, it was in the midrange, where it sounded slightly (but only) less dynamic than the Emo gear. The midrange Yamaha wasn't as great. Certainly not bad - more than good enough for movies - but it just didn't have the openness and sweetness of the entry level nor the bass clarity of the top model. Yamaha, IMHO, is one of the best of the Japanese AVR makers - Better than Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra, Sony, etc. The only AVR I've heard that consistently spanks Yamaha is Arcam. And the Arcam products have far less features and far higher prices in comparison to Yamaha. Lots of folks disagree with this assessment, but were I to pay my own money for an AVR, it'd be a Yamaha or the Arcam. The only decent hifi/HT retail outlet in Sydney (2 hours drive from my place) is the biggest Yamaha dealer in Australia and he's always trying to get me into a Yamaha AVR. As a result I've tried pretty much every model for the last 20 years, with every combination of speakers at his disposal. As yet I haven't found one that I'd ever consider. He's tried the blind tests a number of times, 'cause he recons I prejudging. To me they all have that Yamaha house sound and it's not to my tastes. I spent a whole afternoon early last year (let's face it, I'm not going to drive for 4 hours and spend 10 minutes there) listening along with some of his customers and the ones that liked it commonly were tube stereo people looking for a HT AVR. Possibly used to and/or liking the muddy bass. One guy even brought his own pair of Paradigm speakers in to listen, he walked out with a top of the line Yamaha AVR plus a centre and surrounds matching his front pair. I had a feeling that he would like it because he had a McIntosh tube pre amp in his stereo set up. I won a bottle of Jim Beam on that bet Cheers Gary Im another advocate of Yamaha AVR's. They really are as good as boomzilla says. I've had a top model for sale on the forum and have been very torn about doing so. I'm sure as soon as it sells I'd have another use for it,,,,,,, like the DC-1 i loved somwell and sold! Burr-Brown DAC's are to my liking and that's what I've listened to for some time now, not changing horses any time soon!!
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 25, 2016 19:08:18 GMT -5
I voted cheap because you seem to like to play around and change regularly. You can always buy an expensive one later, start with a cheapy and figure out what you like, little ventured, little lost.
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Post by teaman on Apr 25, 2016 19:43:55 GMT -5
I vote for finding an AVR for a fraction of the original price that has everything....preferably from jadedesign on Ebay. Maybe one that has been discontinued....maybe from a company like Sherbourn or Emotiva.
I hear they make good pets too.
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Post by cheapthryl on Apr 26, 2016 7:46:29 GMT -5
Cheap AVR. One box solution, you've already stated you like the sound of the bottom line yammy, lower power needs, limited use. If you buy new and sell at 50% you'll incur a loss of $175 instead of $1800. I've had some AVR's with mediocre speakers that were okay for movies but lousy for stereo music. Lets not forget that you seem to enjoy checking out different gear Boom.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2016 7:51:51 GMT -5
The die is cast. It won't be an AVR at all. The Oppo has its own video & audio decoders and they update their firmware frequently enough to keep it all current. The Oppo with an XPA-5 will do both stereo & movies with no more real estate usage than the Oppo and an AVR.
As I said earlier, the digital volume control on the Oppo is a theoretical minus, but in practice, it doesn't seem to damage the sound significantly. The Oppo's output devices aren't as robust as a dedicated preamp's, but a tube buffer (used for stereo only) will cure that shortcoming as well (and without significant rack space used). I've owned an XPA-5 before, and found it to be perfectly acceptable.
So "surround sound on the cheap" with an integrated stereo / HT package may be sufficient to my needs. When Oppo comes out with their 4K player, I may do that too.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Apr 26, 2016 8:22:41 GMT -5
The die is cast. It won't be an AVR at all. The Oppo has its own video & audio decoders and they update their firmware frequently enough to keep it all current. The Oppo with an XPA-5 will do both stereo & movies with no more real estate usage than the Oppo and an AVR. As I said earlier, the digital volume control on the Oppo is a theoretical minus, but in practice, it doesn't seem to damage the sound significantly. The Oppo's output devices aren't as robust as a dedicated preamp's, but a tube buffer (used for stereo only) will cure that shortcoming as well (and without significant rack space used). I've owned an XPA-5 before, and found it to be perfectly acceptable. So "surround sound on the cheap" with an integrated stereo / HT package may be sufficient to my needs. When Oppo comes out with their 4K player, I may do that too. Once again, the amp that should be in every HT system rises to the occasion again!! The greatest value in all of HT IMHO! Nice choice boomzilla
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Post by garbulky on Apr 26, 2016 9:03:21 GMT -5
The die is cast. It won't be an AVR at all. The Oppo has its own video & audio decoders and they update their firmware frequently enough to keep it all current. The Oppo with an XPA-5 will do both stereo & movies with no more real estate usage than the Oppo and an AVR. As I said earlier, the digital volume control on the Oppo is a theoretical minus, but in practice, it doesn't seem to damage the sound significantly. The Oppo's output devices aren't as robust as a dedicated preamp's, but a tube buffer (used for stereo only) will cure that shortcoming as well (and without significant rack space used). I've owned an XPA-5 before, and found it to be perfectly acceptable. So "surround sound on the cheap" with an integrated stereo / HT package may be sufficient to my needs. When Oppo comes out with their 4K player, I may do that too. In terms of damaging the sound, let's be picky here - I dare say it does do some harm. As you note in two channel it cannot keep up with the rest of the electronics. If I recall with the preamp engaged your system was THE best two channel I have experienced. It had "alive" moments. Several almost constantly when placement and the subs were locked down . Without it - it was pretty good but I couldn't call it the best. Even though at the beginning things feel only slightly different as you listen over time, the difference jumps out. Usually when you go a pre-amp less route, I notice that your gear experimentation increases. Maybe that's because you feel you are missing something subtle? I agree that going without an AVR is a better choice. However if I recall you did this once - the Oppo multichannel route with an XPA-5 for the surrounds. What made you change? The right tube buffer may help bolster the Oppo. But also be wary that the cheap ones can sometimes color the signal too much. I've tried a few active preamps and buffers and even the really good pricey ones color the signal and rob some level of detail. In my opinion stick only the best in your two channel path. Here's a nice preamp Supposed to be better than the XSP-1 - I would choose it most days over a tube buffer. (It's either that or its higher priced flagship for my end game updgrade) www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-1/Master-1EN.htm$1280 I know it's pricey but on your hunt for the right preamp it's possible you may end up spending a lot more than its cost.
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Post by creimes on Apr 26, 2016 10:10:44 GMT -5
The die is cast. It won't be an AVR at all. The Oppo has its own video & audio decoders and they update their firmware frequently enough to keep it all current. The Oppo with an XPA-5 will do both stereo & movies with no more real estate usage than the Oppo and an AVR. As I said earlier, the digital volume control on the Oppo is a theoretical minus, but in practice, it doesn't seem to damage the sound significantly. The Oppo's output devices aren't as robust as a dedicated preamp's, but a tube buffer (used for stereo only) will cure that shortcoming as well (and without significant rack space used). I've owned an XPA-5 before, and found it to be perfectly acceptable. So "surround sound on the cheap" with an integrated stereo / HT package may be sufficient to my needs. When Oppo comes out with their 4K player, I may do that too. So Gen3 XPA-5 and your selling the XPA-2, is that what I'm reading into here.
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Post by deltadube on Apr 26, 2016 10:56:14 GMT -5
Assuming a separate system for stereo... FACTOIDS: We don't listen to movies loudly and deliberately squash the dynamic range when we do. The room doesn't need (or like) room correction. The source, an Oppo BDP-105, does a good job of decoding audio & upscaling video. The video display is handled by a brand new SUHD Samsung 65" with HDMI 2.2a & 4K up-conversion. OPTIONS: In a nutshell - two. Option 1: Buy the cheapest AVR on the market & replace it every two years (avoids obsolescence and ensures latest features) Option 2: Buy the best AVR on the market & keep it till the wheels fall off (provides best sound quality) There is no option three (separates) because I don't want to spend the living room real estate for both a stereo & a complex AV system. Live with it. On the table for the moment are: Yamaha RX-V381 ($279 plus tax) - The preferred Option 1 solution... Arcam FMJ-550 ($3,400 plus tax) - The preferred Option 2 solution... Your recommendation (and why)? I love my movies loud especially the big action scenes.. need an xpa 5 on the avr atleast... denon with there room correction in the middle line up... works great for me.. cheers..
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2016 12:09:03 GMT -5
The XPA-5 I had once before was a generation 1 unit. It was good, but not as good as the XPA models with fewer channels (or as good as the Generation 2 models of any channel-count). IMHO, Emotiva "got it right" with their Generation 2 amplifiers. They claim that the generation 3 ones are even better, but at approximately 2x the cost for a Generation 3 over a Generation 2, I opted to go with the older amp. Of course, if Emotiva would like to send me a Generation 3 five-channel amp to review (in a side-by-side shootout with the older XPA-5), I'd not turn it down - and who knows, they might even sell the thing to me! garbulky makes a good point about having used the Oppo as a preamp before. Played directly into the power amps, it isn't quite as dynamic as having a preamp in the chain. But keep in mind that almost all the "Oppo-direct-to-amp" listening that I've done has been with Generation 1 Emotiva amplifiers! The Emotiva generation 2s are significantly better (and almost all of the preamp-listening we've done has been with Generation 2 Emotiva amps. The XSP-1, generation 2 preamp did a good job. The McIntosh C220 tube preamp did an even better job. But I contend that 90% of the Oppo's difference between "with & without a preamp" is NOT due to the analog volume control of the preamps vs. the digital volume of the Oppo, but rather that the preamps have more robust output buffer amps. After all, the Oppo wasn't designed to drive power amplifiers directly, but rather to feed the analog inputs of another line-level device (AVR, preamp, etc.). By using a tube buffer, I get a robust, easy-to-drive interface between the Oppo & the power amp. It's also an interface with its own strong output buffers. I've used several before between the Oppo & power amp, and have been pleased every time. garbulky doesn't much care for the tube sound - it isn't neutral enough for him. But to my ears, the increase in sound stage verisimilitude makes up for any frequency anomalies. And it IS me that I'm buying this for, not my audio buddies, as much as I respect and enjoy them... So the bottom line is that I'm looking for GREAT THINGS from the Oppo-BDP-105 to Yaqin SD-CD3 to Emotiva XPA-5, generation 2 combo. If it isn't up to snuff, then I'll go back to a "real" preamp, but I'm betting that it's going to be awesome! Boomzilla
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Post by teaman on Apr 26, 2016 12:18:37 GMT -5
I have no experience with the Gen 3's boom but I actually prefer the Gen 1 XPA amps to the Gen 2. The higher gain makes a world of difference, especially in two channel.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2016 12:24:53 GMT -5
I believe you, teaman, but my experience is the polar opposite. Vive la différence!
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2016 16:14:31 GMT -5
And I find it VERY interesting that voters are virtually tied on the question of buying a "throwaway" AVR vs. spending 10x for a "good" one. What does one REALLY get by spending lots more? More power, certainly, more features as well, but not necessarily better sound! If you want to play movies LOUDLY, then you'll really NEED the extra power of the upscale model. But if you're running really, really efficient speakers OR if you have a small space to fill OR if (like me) you listen more softly, then maybe the bottom of the barrel is the better option?
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