richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 859
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Post by richb on Oct 17, 2019 8:04:37 GMT -5
That is possible is there a way to display the dialog norm setting. The DTS upmixer is at an even lower level. - Rich Theres a you tube video Nick posted about different options on the 2 oled gui's which are configurable . In other pre pros its something that usually flashes on screen for a few milliseconds and is gone . An owner can confirm hopefully . When you mention the db level of the dts neural I remember how dts was always a few db hotter than dd back in the day ; so if its not mastering levels it may be connected with the current dts issues some are experiencing ? The lower volume is with the RMC-1 set to a 5.1 configuration upmixing 2.0. The Marantz flashed Dialnorm but I have not seem any indicators on the XMC nor RMC. - Rich
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 17, 2019 8:05:26 GMT -5
I did go through the same set of discs and I had quite alot top speaker sounds.. But as with many discs (both atmos and dts:x) how much height effects depend on each disc. Some discs I have had to stand up and put my ear to the speakers to find out if they’re on. Sitting in the sweetspot I have noticed that harder to hear single effects. It’s more like your sitting in a bubble of effects and sounds.. You simply get more involved into the movie.. I have a 7.2.4 setup with 4 top front and top rear. Not optimal for DTS:X.. Thanks for that, there are times it sounds like the bubble you describe (a good term), but I have the ability to get right next to my height speakers, and never actually hear anything, it’s possible it’s just timing. If you know a specific disk and scene I can stand there while it’s playing. I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) Try the Dumbledore Voldemort battle scene at the end of the 5th movie (Order of the Phoenix). It was the best use of immersive audio I have ever heard. I did not try it on my RMC yet. Ill pop it in tonight and report back, FWIW I am set up 7.1.4
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Post by deewan on Oct 17, 2019 8:13:46 GMT -5
I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) For quite some time I was unable to get anything out of my middle overhead speakers in my 7.1.6 configuration. But I was using the sub left and sub right XLR outputs which may route sound differently than if you are using a dedicated overhead output. You could try to change your overhead speakers to front and see if they come alive.
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Post by krobar on Oct 17, 2019 8:50:58 GMT -5
Is anyone using the RMC-1/XMC-1 OK with an HTPC? I'm due to demo one in a few weeks time and will bring my 3D capable Intel Coffeelake setup but was wondering if I'm attempting the impossible. For 3D at least it is expected the HDMI 1.4 setting may be needed as Intel have a known bug with 3D and HDMI 2.0 syncs.
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Post by goozoo on Oct 17, 2019 11:51:21 GMT -5
I did go through the same set of discs and I had quite alot top speaker sounds.. But as with many discs (both atmos and dts:x) how much height effects depend on each disc. Some discs I have had to stand up and put my ear to the speakers to find out if they’re on. Sitting in the sweetspot I have noticed that harder to hear single effects. It’s more like your sitting in a bubble of effects and sounds.. You simply get more involved into the movie.. I have a 7.2.4 setup with 4 top front and top rear. Not optimal for DTS:X.. Thanks for that, there are times it sounds like the bubble you describe (a good term), but I have the ability to get right next to my height speakers, and never actually hear anything, it’s possible it’s just timing. If you know a specific disk and scene I can stand there while it’s playing. I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2019 12:01:42 GMT -5
... You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs. That’s a good idea, I can set the Surround at -12 and the Height at +12, then play the scene davidl81 recommended. I can also play with setting the Heights to Front. Thanks too for the streaming info.
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Post by cwt on Oct 17, 2019 12:38:50 GMT -5
The lower volume is with the RMC-1 set to a 5.1 configuration upmixing 2.0. The Marantz flashed Dialnorm but I have not seem any indicators on the XMC nor RMC. - Rich The only thing I can equate to your dts neural upmix is subjectively [ not objectively measured] when I switch of dts neural on my cxa 5100 the original lpcm2.0 always seems louder [but that's how the algorithm works and our ears perceive panning really] . Same applies to pl2/x dsp as well [ shame they didn't leave that on the RMC1 as well]so its not just the newer dsp codecs
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Post by aswiss on Oct 17, 2019 12:47:59 GMT -5
Is anyone using the RMC-1/XMC-1 OK with an HTPC? I'm due to demo one in a few weeks time and will bring my 3D capable Intel Coffeelake setup but was wondering if I'm attempting the impossible. For 3D at least it is expected the HDMI 1.4 setting may be needed as Intel have a known bug with 3D and HDMI 2.0 syncs. Yes - I use a HTPC with my RMC-1 - but with 3D I'm out - don't use this for years. And Industry also stopped to produce 3D Movies.
Question:
What Software do you use for playing 3D on the HTPC? What Files do you play?
When you write: 3D capable Intel Coffeelake, what exactly do you mean with this ?
When you know this: Intel have a known bug with 3D and HDMI 2.0 syncs - why would you go and try?
The RMC-1 can be set up for HDMI 1.4 on a specific HDMI In Port - so no worries about it.
I tried to get UHD HDR running on a HTPC - and its not very succesful with standard Tools. MadVR and Stuff is not really HDR, its a calculated picture.
I use Kodi with my PC as a player - but since I have a Zidoo Z9S Box - mostly watch movies over this (also capable to do 3D and UHD with HDR).
For the 2-3 3D Movies I still have, I'll let them play over the oppo203.
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Post by aswiss on Oct 17, 2019 12:54:29 GMT -5
Thanks for that, there are times it sounds like the bubble you describe (a good term), but I have the ability to get right next to my height speakers, and never actually hear anything, it’s possible it’s just timing. If you know a specific disk and scene I can stand there while it’s playing. I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs.
I always thought, that with Atmos, you can use both, TOP and/or HIGHT. In the x.x.6 according to the Atmos Layout, its Front H, TopMid and Back H. or 6 x Top I have heard .2 Setups (most people cannot put more) and the simply don't work for my ears. x.4 is minimum.
But of course it should work. Have not had time to read over all the posts of the last 2 weeks.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 17, 2019 14:24:32 GMT -5
You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs.
I always thought, that with Atmos, you can use both, TOP and/or HIGHT. In the x.x.6 according to the Atmos Layout, its Front H, TopMid and Back H. or 6 x Top I have heard .2 Setups (most people cannot put more) and the simply don't work for my ears. x.4 is minimum.
But of course it should work. Have not had time to read over all the posts of the last 2 weeks.
In 9.1.6 config, found no difference in sound or immersion between using Tops vs Heights (both Front and Rear) with DD True HD/ATMOS movies.
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Post by nospam on Oct 17, 2019 16:05:29 GMT -5
I thought I had read posts which described Emotiva's RMC-1 volume control as a stepped resistor ladder network similar to Benchmark's. I believe this was given as a reason for the RMC-1 being limited to 0.5dB steps in channel and overall volume adjustments. I stumbled onto a slick I received at CES 2017 which reads: * Cirrus CS3318 lossless resistor ladder volume controls for main zone, 0.5dB resolution * Cirrus CS3310 lossless resistor ladder volume controls for secondary zones, 0.5dB resolution I see on the RMC-1 product page, "high-quality analog ladder network volume control". Is this still the Cirrus CS3318 and CS3310 (-96 dB to +22 dB in ¼ dB steps)? While I can see how one can refer to these volume controls as analog or resistor ladders, I do not believe they are comparable to the Benchmark design. www.cirrus.com/products/cs3308-18/BTW: This XMR-1 AVR would have been awesome! What exactly is your point? Is it that the 33xx series is capable of 0.25 dB and Emotiva choose 0.5 dB? Cheers Gary I want to know if the analog volume control in the RMC-1 & XMC-2 are still the CS3318 and CS3308 as described back in 2017 (¼ dB steps) or if they deployed a different solution (does the XMC-2 also use the CS3318 or dual CS3308s)? I.E. something custom along the lines of Benchmark's HPA4 stepped attenuator (½ dB steps). The Cirrus solutions are excellent and used in "high-end" preamps like the Classé SSP-800. The performance of something like the Benchmark is simply off the charts. >10dB Cirrus CS33x8 • -96 dB to +22 dB in ¼ dB steps • > 127 dB dynamic range (CS3318) • > 123 dB dynamic range (CS3308) • < -112 dB THD+N • > 120 dB inter-channel isolation Benchmark HPA4 • -122 dB to +15 dB range in ½ dB steps • THD < -125 dB • SNR > 135 dB, unweighted, 20-20 kHz • SNR > 137 dB, A-weighted • Crosstalk < -133 dB @ 1 kHz, -116 dB @ 10 kHz KeithL ? I've seen the dynamic limits of human hearing reported between 117dB - 119dB. I think its safe to say that anything ≥120dB is undetectable.
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Post by nospam on Oct 17, 2019 16:14:15 GMT -5
In a x.x.2 setup the overheads' designation (Tops vs Heights) does not matter, the content delivery will be the same. All overhead audio will be collapsed (think L mono and R mono).
x.x.2 can work just fine with the proper speaker dispersion and placement. 👍🏽
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 17, 2019 20:51:43 GMT -5
I depends on how you lay out the .2 ceiling speakers, I do it along the length of the room, not across it (as Dolby suggest). Plus I set it up in the processor as if it was .4 and parallel the power amp inputs across the room. That way the objects that might have others wise been rerouted (fully or partially) to the sides are kept in the ceilings. Of course it depends of the size of the room and its acoustics plus the seating position. For example my seating is laid out in an "L" formation for 2 people, so I don't have to contend with 3/4/5 rows of seating or a large spread across the room plus it has cathedral ceilings. The fact is every HT is different and there is far more to it than a simplistic speaker count.
Cheers Gary
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2019 20:52:52 GMT -5
What exactly is your point? Is it that the 33xx series is capable of 0.25 dB and Emotiva choose 0.5 dB? Cheers Gary I want to know if the analog volume control in the RMC-1 & XMC-2 are still the CS3318 and CS3308 as described back in 2017 (¼ dB steps) or if they deployed a different solution (does the XMC-2 also use the CS3318 or dual CS3308s)? I.E. something custom along the lines of Benchmark's HPA4 stepped attenuator (½ dB steps). The Cirrus solutions are excellent and used in "high-end" preamps like the Classé SSP-800. The performance of something like the Benchmark is simply off the charts. >10dB Cirrus CS33x8 • -96 dB to +22 dB in ¼ dB steps • > 127 dB dynamic range (CS3318) • > 123 dB dynamic range (CS3308) • < -112 dB THD+N • > 120 dB inter-channel isolation Benchmark HPA4 • -122 dB to +15 dB range in ½ dB steps • THD < -125 dB • SNR > 135 dB, unweighted, 20-20 kHz • SNR > 137 dB, A-weighted • Crosstalk < -133 dB @ 1 kHz, -116 dB @ 10 kHz KeithL ? I've seen the dynamic limits of human hearing reported between 117dB - 119dB. I think its safe to say that anything ≥120dB is undetectable. I’m not sure if you’re asking about the capabilities or the implementation. To the best of my knowledge the DC-1 is the only Emotiva device where the volume control increments in 0.25 dB steps. I believe both the XDA-1 and XDA-2 did 0.5 dB (as did I believe the analog XSP-1). All of the later processors (XMC/RMC) use 1 dB steps. I will probably be corrected, but I’ve owned all of these and I’m doing this from memory. Again, this is how they work, not necessarily what they’re capable of.
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Post by nospam on Oct 17, 2019 21:08:28 GMT -5
I want to know if the analog volume control in the RMC-1 & XMC-2 are still the CS3318 and CS3308 as described back in 2017 (¼ dB steps) or if they deployed a different solution (does the XMC-2 also use the CS3318 or dual CS3308s)? I.E. something custom along the lines of Benchmark's HPA4 stepped attenuator (½ dB steps). The Cirrus solutions are excellent and used in "high-end" preamps like the Classé SSP-800. The performance of something like the Benchmark is simply off the charts. >10dB Cirrus CS33x8 • -96 dB to +22 dB in ¼ dB steps • > 127 dB dynamic range (CS3318) • > 123 dB dynamic range (CS3308) • < -112 dB THD+N • > 120 dB inter-channel isolation Benchmark HPA4 • -122 dB to +15 dB range in ½ dB steps • THD < -125 dB • SNR > 135 dB, unweighted, 20-20 kHz • SNR > 137 dB, A-weighted • Crosstalk < -133 dB @ 1 kHz, -116 dB @ 10 kHz KeithL ? I've seen the dynamic limits of human hearing reported between 117dB - 119dB. I think its safe to say that anything ≥120dB is undetectable. I’m not sure if you’re asking about the capabilities or the implementation. To the best of my knowledge the DC-1 is the only Emotiva device where the volume control increments in 0.25 dB steps. I believe both the XDA-1 and XDA-2 did 0.5 dB (as did I believe the analog XSP-1). All of the later processors (XMC/RMC) use 1 dB steps. I will probably be corrected, but I’ve owned all of these and I’m doing this from memory. Again, this is how they work, not necessarily what they’re capable of. Volume control implementation. I don't really care about the dB steps. I can't seem to get good results from the search tool.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2019 22:18:25 GMT -5
Thanks for that, there are times it sounds like the bubble you describe (a good term), but I have the ability to get right next to my height speakers, and never actually hear anything, it’s possible it’s just timing. If you know a specific disk and scene I can stand there while it’s playing. I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) Try the Dumbledore Voldemort battle scene at the end of the 5th movie (Order of the Phoenix). It was the best use of immersive audio I have ever heard. I did not try it on my RMC yet. Ill pop it in tonight and report back, FWIW I am set up 7.1.4 I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) For quite some time I was unable to get anything out of my middle overhead speakers in my 7.1.6 configuration. But I was using the sub left and sub right XLR outputs which may route sound differently than if you are using a dedicated overhead output. You could try to change your overhead speakers to front and see if they come alive. Thanks for that, there are times it sounds like the bubble you describe (a good term), but I have the ability to get right next to my height speakers, and never actually hear anything, it’s possible it’s just timing. If you know a specific disk and scene I can stand there while it’s playing. I only have 7.2.2, set to middle, maybe that’s the problem (does DTS have a middle?) You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs. So tonight I tried two things. First I replayed the Dumbledore / Voldemort scene David suggested, with the surrounds at -12 and heights at +12. I still heard nothing (even right next to the overheads). Then I went into setup and a checked out my options for the LR/RR Height I’m plugged into, as Front Height was not an option, I chose Rear Height. When I listened again with the same level settings, I could easily hear the overhead speakers. It appears that in a 7.2.2 configuration, DTS does not use middle heights, whether it’s because they’re heights or middles I don’t know. I’m beginning to see the dilemma in speaker selections, and another reason why having all selections for each channel is important. I may try replugging into LF/RF and try Front Heights when I have time. Thanks for the suggestions.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 17, 2019 22:31:30 GMT -5
... I can't seem to get good results from the search tool. The Proboards search is useless, I use Google exclusively, for instance to find pages with RMC and Cirrus here, use: site:emotivalounge.proboards.com rmc cirrus
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Post by davidl81 on Oct 17, 2019 23:28:48 GMT -5
Try the Dumbledore Voldemort battle scene at the end of the 5th movie (Order of the Phoenix). It was the best use of immersive audio I have ever heard. I did not try it on my RMC yet. Ill pop it in tonight and report back, FWIW I am set up 7.1.4 For quite some time I was unable to get anything out of my middle overhead speakers in my 7.1.6 configuration. But I was using the sub left and sub right XLR outputs which may route sound differently than if you are using a dedicated overhead output. You could try to change your overhead speakers to front and see if they come alive. You can just mute/disconnect your bed channels and see what you hear through your height channels. As for DTS, this is where it’s gets stupid. ATMOS has top designation while DTS has height designation. What you pick for one on the processor will be wrong for the other format causing the renderer to bleed the sound into the bed channels. That said, depending on the resolution of your system, you may not be able to hear the difference. This is where having a graphical interface where speakers can be assigned per format is a MUST!; but then that’s just wishful thinking these days as it will be some time before this will be implemented on the RMC1. Finally, the DTS issues are related to streaming audio and not discs. So tonight I tried two things. First I replayed the Dumbledore / Voldemort scene David suggested, with the surrounds at -12 and heights at +12. I still heard nothing (even right next to the overheads). Then I went into setup and a checked out my options for the LR/RR Height I’m plugged into, as Front Height was not an option, I chose Rear Height. When I listened again with the same level settings, I could easily hear the overhead speakers. It appears that in a 7.2.2 configuration, DTS does not use middle heights, whether it’s because they’re heights or middles I don’t know. I’m beginning to see the dilemma in speaker selections, and another reason why having all selections for each channel is important. I may try replugging into LF/RF and try Front Heights when I have time. Thanks for the suggestions. Yeah I just watched that scene with a 7.2.4 setup and I had a ton of sound coming from all top speakers. But they are set up at top front and top rear. So maybe Top middle is no good for dts:x
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Post by cwt on Oct 18, 2019 0:13:15 GMT -5
I want to know if the analog volume control in the RMC-1 & XMC-2 are still the CS3318 and CS3308 as described back in 2017 (¼ dB steps) or if they deployed a different solution (does the XMC-2 also use the CS3318 or dual CS3308s)? I.E. something custom along the lines of Benchmark's HPA4 stepped attenuator (½ dB steps). You may have missed my earlier post but as Rich said in his avs forum post the RMC1 uses the CS3318 as described in your 2017 sheet On the feature page of the RMC1 and XMC2 are identical volume control solutions
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Post by krobar on Oct 18, 2019 2:17:44 GMT -5
Is anyone using the RMC-1/XMC-1 OK with an HTPC? I'm due to demo one in a few weeks time and will bring my 3D capable Intel Coffeelake setup but was wondering if I'm attempting the impossible. For 3D at least it is expected the HDMI 1.4 setting may be needed as Intel have a known bug with 3D and HDMI 2.0 syncs. Yes - I use a HTPC with my RMC-1 - but with 3D I'm out - don't use this for years. And Industry also stopped to produce 3D Movies.
Question:
What Software do you use for playing 3D on the HTPC? What Files do you play?
When you write: 3D capable Intel Coffeelake, what exactly do you mean with this ?
When you know this: Intel have a known bug with 3D and HDMI 2.0 syncs - why would you go and try?
The RMC-1 can be set up for HDMI 1.4 on a specific HDMI In Port - so no worries about it. I tried to get UHD HDR running on a HTPC - and its not very succesful with standard Tools. MadVR and Stuff is not really HDR, its a calculated picture.
I use Kodi with my PC as a player - but since I have a Zidoo Z9S Box - mostly watch movies over this (also capable to do 3D and UHD with HDR).
For the 2-3 3D Movies I still have, I'll let them play over the oppo203. Thank you for the reply. I'm using a custom build of Kodi 18 for Windows with 3D MVC support. By 3D capable coffeelake I mean it is currently working with hardware 3D despite a lot of people saying the newer CPUs don't work; the truth is newer Intel NUCs don't work. We still get a few 3D releases here in Europe (eg. Godzilla, Aqauaman and End Game this year). The why I'm trying is the important bit I think. I need to make sure the Emotiva will switch between all the different types of bitstream audio tracks. My files are all MKV made by me and not re-compressed so much more consistent than most. Does the Emotiva switch audio formats properly with your Zidoo? What about your PC? Is it using integrated Intel graphics or an AMD/Nvidia card?
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