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Post by audiobill on Dec 21, 2019 19:01:35 GMT -5
I wonder if Emo should turn to ATI to build their stuff,,,,.,
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 21, 2019 19:17:26 GMT -5
You can find a summary of processors in the 4 to 10k range: www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3090874-16-channel-prepros-5000-less.htmlHere are the 16 channel processors known to use the MDS MDS Platform - TI APM-117Monoprice HTP-1 ($4000) Arcam AV40 ($4500) JBL Synthesis SDP-55 ($6000) Audiocontrol X7 ($6600) Audiocontrol X9 ($9600) The rest are older platforms with the exception of the ATI which is likely also an MDS 117 or 120. The processors differ in analog input support, DAC use, network features etc. The appears to some OSD support from Arcam but limited at this time. Still, the capability is there so it could be expanded. - Rich If the Arcam is $4500, then I would buy this at an Arcam dealer over the Monoprice. I can actually go listen to it. This is a game changer imho. Iām surprised how relatively inexpensive it is compared to the Monoprice. Amazing how technology doesnāt stand still. I still think the XMC2 I have is still a nice alternative and still undercuts the list of MPS 117 based processors enough to be a contender. So Dirac isnāt available yet on any of these processors yet? Even though they coded the interface to MDS?
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Post by dlaunde on Dec 21, 2019 19:34:33 GMT -5
You can find a summary of processors in the 4 to 10k range: www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3090874-16-channel-prepros-5000-less.htmlHere are the 16 channel processors known to use the MDS MDS Platform - TI APM-117Monoprice HTP-1 ($4000) Arcam AV40 ($4500) JBL Synthesis SDP-55 ($6000) Audiocontrol X7 ($6600) Audiocontrol X9 ($9600) The rest are older platforms with the exception of the ATI which is likely also an MDS 117 or 120. The processors differ in analog input support, DAC use, network features etc. The appears to some OSD support from Arcam but limited at this time. Still, the capability is there so it could be expanded. - Rich If the Arcam is $4500, then I would buy this at an Arcam dealer over the Monoprice. I can actually go listen to it. This is a game changer imho. Iām surprised how relatively inexpensive it is compared to the Monoprice. You can even shave another 500 off the AVR40 price and get the AVR20 if you don't need a processor.
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Post by rickavmaniac on Dec 22, 2019 7:48:33 GMT -5
If the Arcam is $4500, then I would buy this at an Arcam dealer over the Monoprice. I can actually go listen to it. This is a game changer imho. Iām surprised how relatively inexpensive it is compared to the Monoprice. You can even shave another 500 off the AVR40 price and get the AVR20 if you don't need a processor. Yes the AVR20 is 4000$ and you get 7 ch power amp as a bonus. Down the road you can add separate amp if needed more channel or more power. But you can still keep the on board amp it will be more than enough for surround and b-surround or height 1. You do lose XLR but all the Arcam are not a true full balance machine anyway. Competition is good and challenge every company on price / performance / features.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 22, 2019 9:08:23 GMT -5
You can even shave another 500 off the AVR40 price and get the AVR20 if you don't need a processor. Yes the AVR20 is 4000$ and you get 7 ch power amp as a bonus. Down the road you can add separate amp if needed more channel or more power. But you can still keep the on board amp it will be more than enough for surround and b-surround or height 1. You do lose XLR but all the Arcam are not a true full balance machine anyway. Competition is good and challenge every company on price / performance / features. Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š
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Post by fschris on Dec 22, 2019 9:46:58 GMT -5
This should be most people's concern. I called them last week to find more information from their customer service side about the HTP-1. After 10 minutes in a phone system menu, I finally got to a person except they were in India and had no idea what the HTP-1 is. They kept asking me if I was asking for a 3D printer. That is the support system that will be in place for this product and customer service. Good luck with troubleshooting any issue you have with those guys. Though not an issue if they release a problem-free, stable product and their customers donāt need to continually contact customer service to report bugs and missing features. I have a boatload of electronics in my home, very few of them Iāve had to contact customer service about. Let alone entire online forums. thrillcat - i work in SW and HW. you probably dont have any idea what goes into coding stuff these days (well i'm sure you do) its hard! i doubt you are connecting every brand of appliances to your centralized fridge controller. that is the point. it is not easy to code for every scenario. while some simple task should be error free it is to be expected that customers are going to be calling CS with any manufacturer of computer coded audio processors! i get the strangest complaints from customers doing wacky things.
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Post by rickavmaniac on Dec 22, 2019 9:47:25 GMT -5
Yes the AVR20 is 4000$ and you get 7 ch power amp as a bonus. Down the road you can add separate amp if needed more channel or more power. But you can still keep the on board amp it will be more than enough for surround and b-surround or height 1. You do lose XLR but all the Arcam are not a true full balance machine anyway. Competition is good and challenge every company on price / performance / features. Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š Yes according to info found on another forum the Arcam and even the Monoprice HTP-1 are not fully balance machine. I dont know what that mean exactly and if it is something that can be notice in the sound quality.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 22, 2019 10:12:43 GMT -5
Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š Yes according to info found on another forum the Arcam and even the Monoprice HTP-1 are not fully balance machine. I dont know what that mean exactly and if it is something that can be notice in the sound quality. Thanks for clarifying! I an doing some sunday morning reading on the Arcam AV40 and even though Best Buy has it in their stores they were told not to sell any units because the firmware is still not ready. Also, Dirac isnt ready yet?! Im gonna backup on my impatience of Dirac on my XMC2. Dirac room correction is great but I think they may be a terrible software company to work with. Iām probably not gonna buy the Monoprice. My xmc2 sounds amazing with REW and i have been enjoying listening to Tidal everyday this past week. I decided to deal with the 2 seconds of lost music vs changing the Tidal output option to system controlled mode. HDMI sucks...so Iām choosing this option..my choice...it sounds better. If the Xmc2 delivers Dirac then, I am seeing zero reasons to change processors, but if they fail, Iāll spend a few more bucks and go hear the Arcam and buy it at a dealer. I like the fact that Arcam is owned by Harmon...like my Revel speakers. š It's nice to not pay for return shipping if i have a warranty issue.
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richb
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Post by richb on Dec 22, 2019 12:24:23 GMT -5
Yes the AVR20 is 4000$ and you get 7 ch power amp as a bonus. Down the road you can add separate amp if needed more channel or more power. But you can still keep the on board amp it will be more than enough for surround and b-surround or height 1. You do lose XLR but all the Arcam are not a true full balance machine anyway. Competition is good and challenge every company on price / performance / features. Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š The JBL is not fully balanced, none are confirmed to be so. Although, there was some talk of the HTP-1 being fully balanced but I suspect it is at the DAC but may not be balanced through the outputs. A number of these are using 2 8 channel ESS DACs. The rubber hits the road when performance is measure but thus far, there are NO specifications. - Rich
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Post by cwt on Dec 22, 2019 13:10:15 GMT -5
Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š Its a similar situation to how you categorize Emo Lsc . Those who are related to the MDS design like the HTP1 will have balanced outputs but likely single ended circuitry due to the cost [ note the HTP1 has no balanced analogue inputs unlike the XMC2 ] ; and it sends all its 2ch analogue signals through an a/d d/a conversion even if no processing like b/m is performed unfortunately.. The upmarket ATP pre pro will be dear enough to include such features. The XMC2 has fully balanced circuitry input to output on the L/C/R /Sub as we know.. The JBL Sp55 references in its specs this vvv ; so its safe to assume those without any unbalanced rca's ;only xlr's are genuine balanced out as they maintain .
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richb
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Post by richb on Dec 22, 2019 13:39:31 GMT -5
Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š Its a similar situation to how you categorize Emo Lsc . Those who are related to the MDS design like the HTP1 will have balanced outputs but likely single ended circuitry due to the cost [ note the HTP1 has no balanced analogue inputs unlike the XMC2 ] ; and it sends all its 2ch analogue signals through an a/d d/a conversion even if no processing like b/m is performed unfortunately.. The upmarket ATP pre pro will be dear enough to include such features. The XMC2 has fully balanced circuitry input to output on the L/C/R /Sub as we know.. The JBL Sp55 references in its specs this vvv ; so its safe to assume those without any unbalanced rca's ;only xlr's are genuine balanced out as they maintain . Just to clarify, the JBL is not fully balanced it used two 8 channel ESS DACs. - Rich
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 22, 2019 15:30:02 GMT -5
Oh the Arcam is unbalanced? I wonder if the JBL is fully balanced like my XMC2. Even if they are unbalanced I need my XLR connections to my amps. It could be all in my head but this is a minimum requirement for me so although it was a good advice the AVR20 is out in my book. š Its a similar situation to how you categorize Emo Lsc . Those who are related to the MDS design like the HTP1 will have balanced outputs but likely single ended circuitry due to the cost [ note the HTP1 has no balanced analogue inputs unlike the XMC2 ] ; and it sends all its 2ch analogue signals through an a/d d/a conversion even if no processing like b/m is performed unfortunately.. The upmarket ATP pre pro will be dear enough to include such features. The XMC2 has fully balanced circuitry input to output on the L/C/R /Sub as we know.. The JBL Sp55 references in its specs this vvv ; so its safe to assume those without any unbalanced rca's ;only xlr's are genuine balanced out as they maintain . richb cwtDo you guys remember the old Lexican blu-ray player scandal? Itāll be interesting how similar in performance these MDS based processors will be. AND if they will actually sound better than my XMC2. My main driving force in looking into the Monoprice was Dirac - I donāt care about Auro or anything other than sound quality - I am perfectly fine with the XMC2ās reliability and have adjusted to the couple idiosyncrasies. So if Emotiva can get the Dirac done, then it looks like Iām all set. I just assumed that they were all fully balanced. The more details I get on these MDS based processors the less interested I am and the more attractive my XMC2 (that I was gonna part with) appears. Go figure š.
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Post by krobar on Dec 22, 2019 20:32:00 GMT -5
Its a similar situation to how you categorize Emo Lsc . Those who are related to the MDS design like the HTP1 will have balanced outputs but likely single ended circuitry due to the cost [ note the HTP1 has no balanced analogue inputs unlike the XMC2 ] ; and it sends all its 2ch analogue signals through an a/d d/a conversion even if no processing like b/m is performed unfortunately.. The upmarket ATP pre pro will be dear enough to include such features. The XMC2 has fully balanced circuitry input to output on the L/C/R /Sub as we know.. The JBL Sp55 references in its specs this vvv ; so its safe to assume those without any unbalanced rca's ;only xlr's are genuine balanced out as they maintain . Just to clarify, the JBL is not fully balanced it used two 8 channel ESS DACs. - Rich I'm still unclear what people consider "Fully balanced" for a source device here; it seems to be use of mono dac configs which I'm unsure how it effects the output being balanced (or not).
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Post by cwt on Dec 22, 2019 22:51:47 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the JBL is not fully balanced it used two 8 channel ESS DACs. - Rich Yes Rich ;as Keith once explained its what happens after the dacs that determines what is only balanced on the outputs or a fully balanced design instead. The RMC1 and L has this advantage over all the others depending on their dacs ;albeit maybe only 3db of signal/noise ratio . As AudioHTIT summarised with the AKM Dacs and logged a subject that is a permanent question that keeps coming up emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1001495
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Post by cwt on Dec 22, 2019 23:09:13 GMT -5
richb cwtDo you guys remember the old Lexican blu-ray player scandal? Itāll be interesting how similar in performance these MDS based processors will be. AND if they will actually sound better than my XMC2. My main driving force in looking into the Monoprice was Dirac - I donāt care about Auro or anything other than sound quality - I am perfectly fine with the XMC2ās reliability and have adjusted to the couple idiosyncrasies. So if Emotiva can get the Dirac done, then it looks like Iām all set. I just assumed that they were all fully balanced. The more details I get on these MDS based processors the less interested I am and the more attractive my XMC2 (that I was gonna part with) appears. Go figure š. I think that's a wise stand Lsc ; many say a good 2ch analogue throughput is hard to get with a pre pro due to the amount of emi/rf in the chassis [and true clean analogue passthrough without redundant ad/da conversions due to a simpler design ] is expensive . Yep; its alright to make some major changes to an OEM design [like say Ayre did with an oppo] but if its identical like Audioholics figured out with the Lexicon its just not on ..
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Post by tagmanz on Dec 23, 2019 0:51:35 GMT -5
Just to clarify, the JBL is not fully balanced it used two 8 channel ESS DACs. - Rich Both the Arcam AV40 and JBL SDP-55 are in fact differentially balanced at the outputs. You are correct in that they both feature 2x 8 Channel DAC IC's (ESS 9026 and ESS 9028 respectively). However each individual DAC channel has both a + and - current output with reference to 0v. The term 'Fully Balanced' is one I find confusing as it is often used to describe different things. The most common use, at least here on the lounge anyway, describes an analog signal path that is balanced from input to output. In that respect neither the Arcam or JBL meet the criterior as all analog inputs are single ended with RCA connectors and the inputs immediately undergo an AD conversion.
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Post by rickavmaniac on Dec 23, 2019 7:47:21 GMT -5
Is XLR out are better in any way vs RCA out?
I am asking because some company like Arcam have have a receiver AVr20 with rca out vs a processor AV40 with xlr. Everything else is the same. The sound quality is better on the xlr pre pro or itās the same?
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Post by doc1963 on Dec 23, 2019 8:32:48 GMT -5
Is XLR out are better in any way vs RCA out? I am asking because some company like Arcam have have a receiver AVr20 with rca out vs a processor AV40 with xlr. Everything else is the same. The sound quality is better on the xlr pre pro or itās the same? A ābalancedā setup using XLR cables has merit in reference to noise rejection and cancellation over long distances and can result in a lower noise floor, but has no inherent influence upon the āsonic characterā (tone) of your system. They cannot make your system āsound betterā, only āquieterā. If your components are relatively close together, you can achieve the same results using higher quality shielded unbalanced cables (like Blue Jeans Cableās LC-1). Thereās a lot of misunderstanding of the purpose of ābalancedā connections. Thereās also a lot of confusion between the use of terms like āfully balancedā and ādifferentially balancedā. The later is a far more expensive to do and neither affects the sonic signature of your system as a whole. The 2 channel side of my setup is ādifferentially balancedā from end to end (source to amp output as the XPA DR-2 has a true differential path all the way through to its speaker output terminals) and the HT side is ābalancedā from end to end (the XPA-9 has balanced inputs, but is a āsinge endedā by design as most amps are). One workflow is just as quiet as the other and, otherwise, have the same sonic signature. If I were to switch to unbalanced interconnects, the results would most likely be the same, but I wouldnāt be using my system to its fullest potential and would have overspent on components whose resources I didnāt need or use. This is something to think about going in, but not with the incorrect train of thought that ābalancedā makes it āsound betterā...
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Post by krobar on Dec 23, 2019 10:22:16 GMT -5
Is XLR out are better in any way vs RCA out? I am asking because some company like Arcam have have a receiver AVr20 with rca out vs a processor AV40 with xlr. Everything else is the same. The sound quality is better on the xlr pre pro or itās the same? I'm unsure but I think Arcam may offer DSP passthrough on the CD input only or at least it has a CD Direct mode. BTW: I have an AV40 but have no interest in analogue inputs (They simply feed my Zone 2). I don't think there is much in it between XLR and RCA, XLR can be useful for subs. The AV40 has about half the power consumption of the AVR20 which may be relevant if you don't intend to use any of the amps in the AVR20, should be a little less noisy too without the amps drawing power form the same toroid. Value wise its no contest, Arcam should not be charging more for the AV40 than the AVR20.
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Post by cwt on Dec 23, 2019 12:42:10 GMT -5
The AV40 has about half the power consumption of the AVR20 which may be relevant if you don't intend to use any of the amps in the AVR20, should be a little less noisy too without the amps drawing power form the same toroid. Value wise its no contest, Arcam should not be charging more for the AV40 than the AVR20. Curious about this aspect of pricing Krobar ; are the 7 channels of power in the avr;s still only allowed to power the bed channels like the last FMJ series iirc or is there more flexibility and you can assign them to the ceilings with a separate power amp for the beds? This was a clever incentive previously to make you upgrade to the class G avr as that's where you want the best amps. That's possibly what they are banking on with the av40 ; its flexibility and the common mode noise reduction of its balanced outs . JBL Synthesis have it right with the avrs being dearer than the SP55 If you can feed the 6 ceilings with the class a/b power amps of the AVR20 that would kneecap the AVR30 at its pricepoint I suspect If the current bugs are dealt with of course.
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