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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 30, 2019 5:55:53 GMT -5
1% of 7.5 billion isn’t such a bad market size. But in all seriousness this is a thread about the speaker expansions coming. Maybe we could stick to how we’re planning on utilizing the material that works well with our system. I do believe that it is incumbent on us to remind the overly optimistic of what the actual state of play is, not excessively encourage them to pursue what ultimately may never come to fruition. For example, I have a business acquaintance who in 2013 built a 25 channel/speaker home theatre because he totally believed Dolby's spin (that Consumer Atmos was the same as Commercial Atmos). To date, some 6 years later, and on his 5th processor/AVR, he hasn't achieved that objective. I did caution him at the time but obviously not strongly enough. Cheers Gary ATMOS works great in 9.1.6. Can't test larger speaker configs due to lack of EMO speaker expansion module ... but, yes, DTS:X is limited to 7.1.4. Be interested to get a beta speaker expansion module(s) to see how many speakers current ATMOS supports. Wonder if EMO has done this?
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 30, 2019 6:06:11 GMT -5
Have any RMC-1 owners got widths to work with either DTS Neural:X or DSU upmixers? Tried many times with no luck ... not sure what is wrong.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 30, 2019 7:09:23 GMT -5
1% of 7.5 billion isn’t such a bad market size. But in all seriousness this is a thread about the speaker expansions coming. Maybe we could stick to how we’re planning on utilizing the material that works well with our system. I do believe that it is incumbent on us to remind the overly optimistic of what the actual state of play is, not excessively encourage them to pursue what ultimately may never come to fruition. For example, I have a business acquaintance who in 2013 built a 25 channel/speaker home theatre because he totally believed Dolby's spin (that Consumer Atmos was the same as Commercial Atmos). To date, some 6 years later, and on his 5th processor/AVR, he hasn't achieved that objective. I did caution him at the time but obviously not strongly enough. Cheers Gary You’d be more welcome in a Trinnov thread then. We nor you have a functioning Pre/Pro with 11.1.8 and I know no one in 2013 had one either even with 20k so it would serve your efforts better to go to a forum that has the same experience as you. I know you seem to have the inside scoop on it all. I’d wonder if everyone would agree with you there. I’d be happy to follow the discussion in that thread. On this thread it comes off as trolling no offense. You already claimed nothing is past 7.1.4 and we know that is not true so how can anyone trust your really helping us? I’m not saying your intentions aren’t good. It just seems your statements have been invalidated. Having the experience of the Trinnov guys and you bouncing ideas back and forth is a lot more valuable than what has been going on here. If it all checks out over there then my apologies in advance for me saying this is coming off as trolling. Please don’t feel obligated to help me not experience 11.1.8 in this thread. I promise I’ll give it an honest assessment after I have the first expansion installed and running. It’s not the same financial gamble it used to be at least for us. Not like the trinnov guys who could really use some help if what you say is true. You would be highly needed over there if everything your saying is valid.
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Post by goozoo on Sept 30, 2019 8:08:51 GMT -5
Have any RMC-1 owners got widths to work with either DTS Neural:X or DSU upmixers? Tried many times with no luck ... not sure what is wrong. The DSU does not utilize wides as per Dolby specs. Neural X is limited to 7.1.4. There is a callout for wides (w/ DTS:X) but you have to lose a height pair to do it and am not sure if the RMC1 is compliant. You will need to wait until 2020 (hopefully) for an upmixer that will go beyond 7.1.4.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 30, 2019 9:31:32 GMT -5
Have any RMC-1 owners got widths to work with either DTS Neural:X or DSU upmixers? Tried many times with no luck ... not sure what is wrong. The DSU does not utilize wides as per Dolby specs. Neural X is limited to 7.1.4. There is a callout for wides (w/ DTS:X) but you have to lose a height pair to do it and am not sure if the RMC1 is compliant. You will need to wait until 2020 (hopefully) for an upmixer that will go beyond 7.1.4. That's really interesting about DSU not supporting widths. ATMOS has widths but DSU does not. Thx. Glad 4K DV/ATMOS works like a charm for 9.1.6. Never realized how much widths add to the "front stage" presence wrt movies ... RMC-1 does a really good job with widths in ATMOS.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 30, 2019 9:55:03 GMT -5
I do believe that it is incumbent on us to remind the overly optimistic of what the actual state of play is, not excessively encourage them to pursue what ultimately may never come to fruition. For example, I have a business acquaintance who in 2013 built a 25 channel/speaker home theatre because he totally believed Dolby's spin (that Consumer Atmos was the same as Commercial Atmos). To date, some 6 years later, and on his 5th processor/AVR, he hasn't achieved that objective. I did caution him at the time but obviously not strongly enough. Cheers Gary You’d be more welcome in a Trinnov thread then. We nor you have a functioning Pre/Pro with 11.1.8 and I know no one in 2013 had one either even with 20k so it would serve your efforts better to go to a forum that has the same experience as you. I know you seem to have the inside scoop on it all. I’d wonder if everyone would agree with you there. I’d be happy to follow the discussion in that thread. On this thread it comes off as trolling no offense. You already claimed nothing is past 7.1.4 and we know that is not true so how can anyone trust your really helping us? I’m not saying your intentions aren’t good. It just seems your statements have been invalidated. Having the experience of the Trinnov guys and you bouncing ideas back and forth is a lot more valuable than what has been going on here. If it all checks out over there then my apologies in advance for me saying this is coming off as trolling. Please don’t feel obligated to help me not experience 11.1.8 in this thread. I promise I’ll give it an honest assessment after I have the first expansion installed and running. It’s not the same financial gamble it used to be at least for us. Not like the trinnov guys who could really use some help if what you say is true. You would be highly needed over there if everything your saying is valid. Yes, this thread is all about speaker expansion. 11.1.8 ... who will be the first one? Last EMO Pod Cast did not mention availability dates for speaker expansion modules nor DTS:X Pro. 09.20.19 Pod Cast (00:04:45 for expansion modules): emotiva.com/blogs/info-hub-1/tagged/podcasts Anyone hear anything officially about this?
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Post by goozoo on Sept 30, 2019 15:01:36 GMT -5
You’d be more welcome in a Trinnov thread then. We nor you have a functioning Pre/Pro with 11.1.8 and I know no one in 2013 had one either even with 20k so it would serve your efforts better to go to a forum that has the same experience as you. I know you seem to have the inside scoop on it all. I’d wonder if everyone would agree with you there. I’d be happy to follow the discussion in that thread. On this thread it comes off as trolling no offense. You already claimed nothing is past 7.1.4 and we know that is not true so how can anyone trust your really helping us? I’m not saying your intentions aren’t good. It just seems your statements have been invalidated. Having the experience of the Trinnov guys and you bouncing ideas back and forth is a lot more valuable than what has been going on here. If it all checks out over there then my apologies in advance for me saying this is coming off as trolling. Please don’t feel obligated to help me not experience 11.1.8 in this thread. I promise I’ll give it an honest assessment after I have the first expansion installed and running. It’s not the same financial gamble it used to be at least for us. Not like the trinnov guys who could really use some help if what you say is true. You would be highly needed over there if everything your saying is valid. Yes, this thread is all about speaker expansion. 11.1.8 ... who will be the first one? Last EMO Pod Cast did not mention availability dates for speaker expansion modules nor DTS:X Pro. 09.20.19 Pod Cast (00:04:45 for expansion modules): emotiva.com/blogs/info-hub-1/tagged/podcasts Anyone hear anything officially about this? DTS:X Pro will not be available until early 2020 from all indications and the expansion modules are taking a back seat to DIRAC being released. I’m still unsure whether or not the current ADI chipset in the RMC1 can work with the expanded channel count as the specs posted here cannot. That said, this could have all changed by now as ADI needs to keep up with TI. Perhaps the better question to ask is if there is an actually functioning expansion module on the test bench or not? Sometimes tells me they are further away on this than they are leading people to believe.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 30, 2019 22:45:03 GMT -5
Some interesting things (without upmixing); 1. No current DTS-X disks will play more than 7.1.4 2. No Atmos disk with pinned 7.1.4 will play more than 7.1.4 3. I haven't found any streamed Atmos content with more than 7.1.4, has anyone else? 4. Almost all streamed Atmos content I have found to date has been off a Dolby Digital 5.1 bed (not a Dolby True HD 7.1 bed), what about others?
Maybe I'm unique in looking at what content is actually available before I start worrying about Speaker Expansion (past 7.1.4), simply because there's not a lot I want to watch that can utilise it.
BTW, maybe I missed where Lonnie conformed that the current RMC-1 hardware will handle DTS-X Pro, if so please link it.
Cheers Gary
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Post by goozoo on Oct 1, 2019 1:19:04 GMT -5
Some interesting things (without upmixing); 1. No current DTS-X disks will play more than 7.1.4 2. No Atmos disk with pinned 7.1.4 will play more than 7.1.4 3. I haven't found any streamed Atmos content with more than 7.1.4, has anyone else? 4. Almost all streamed Atmos content I have found to date has been off a Dolby Digital 5.1 bed (not a Dolby True HD 7.1 bed), what about others? Maybe I'm unique in looking at what content is actually available before I start worrying about Speaker Expansion (past 7.1.4), simply because there's not a lot I want to watch that can utilise it. BTW, maybe I missed where Lonnie conformed that the current RMC-1 hardware will handle DTS-X Pro, if so please link it. Cheers Gary Gary, Gary, Gary.....you know we don’t deal in reality here. Just hyperbole and promises from the rumor mill. Seriously, it’s the lack of content that has people chasing the post processing upmixer bug currently. There are native releases that do make use of those additional speakers but not that many (as you know). The additional expansion cards are critical to satisfy those needs but at the present I don’t think that there is even a working prototype RMC1 with the expansion modules working. I think we are a good 6 months or more away from such a capability. As for DTS:X Pro it has been mentioned that it will be supported on the RMC1 but that is also well into Q1 2020 (if not later).
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 1, 2019 1:51:49 GMT -5
Some interesting things (without upmixing); 1. No current DTS-X disks will play more than 7.1.4 2. No Atmos disk with pinned 7.1.4 will play more than 7.1.4 3. I haven't found any streamed Atmos content with more than 7.1.4, has anyone else? 4. Almost all streamed Atmos content I have found to date has been off a Dolby Digital 5.1 bed (not a Dolby True HD 7.1 bed), what about others? Maybe I'm unique in looking at what content is actually available before I start worrying about Speaker Expansion (past 7.1.4), simply because there's not a lot I want to watch that can utilise it. BTW, maybe I missed where Lonnie conformed that the current RMC-1 hardware will handle DTS-X Pro, if so please link it. Cheers Gary Plenty of 4K DV/ATMOS 9.1.6 (verified) movie source material here in USA. Don't want to let readers think RMC-1 is limited by movie source material to 7.1.4. You are correct with 7.1.4 pinned source material, but there is a lot of source material not pinned at 7.1.4 that supports 9.1.6 on the RMC-1. You should add that as number 5 to your list, in order to be complete.
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Post by cwt on Oct 1, 2019 3:11:45 GMT -5
That's really interesting about DSU not supporting widths. ATMOS has widths but DSU does not. Thx. Glad 4K DV/ATMOS works like a charm for 9.1.6. Never realized how much widths add to the "front stage" presence wrt movies ... RMC-1 does a really good job with widths in ATMOS. Its hard to get a read on the capabilities of dts-x + wides with the constraints Tdifeq ; this helped me vvv and wonder if you've tried either of these specific configs? If so Emo really needs to enable this in lieu of dtsx pro[ good thing theres more atmos than dtsx out there.. ] Dolby has always been concerned about comb filtering with their dsp's
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Post by nospam on Oct 1, 2019 6:35:41 GMT -5
It’s kind of up to the streamers though on what they will support. Netflix allows object audio. Disney is creating there own content and streaming it so they chose to streamline everything. Netflix seems to be the premium movie streamer. I heard Dark was a really good Atmos mix but I don’t have my speakers set up to see if it goes beyond 7.1.4z It doesn’t seem like caution is necessary anymore but it would suck to find out you’re right 5 years down the road. I agree bandwidth increases would make it seem more necessary. I’d like to know if any Netflix movie actually has what we will need for 11.1.8. The good news is that Netflix is committed to providing object-based mixes (not pinned) in their original content. Most Netflix titles will scale as you increase your speaker count/layout.
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Post by nospam on Oct 1, 2019 6:40:31 GMT -5
DTS-X has ALWAYS been 7.1.4, it's not "an issue", that's how it was designed from day 1, DTS have never hidden that, it's in all of their documentation. Not accurate Gary Not until Dts:X Pro will Neural X upmix past 11.1 Correct! 👍🏽
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Post by nospam on Oct 1, 2019 7:12:32 GMT -5
I do believe that it is incumbent on us to remind the overly optimistic of what the actual state of play is, not excessively encourage them to pursue what ultimately may never come to fruition. For example, I have a business acquaintance who in 2013 built a 25 channel/speaker home theatre because he totally believed Dolby's spin (that Consumer Atmos was the same as Commercial Atmos). To date, some 6 years later, and on his 5th processor/AVR, he hasn't achieved that objective. I did caution him at the time but obviously not strongly enough. You should have sold him a Trinnov or a Dolby CP850 long ago. It was Emotiva that pushed the 11.5.8 narrative at CEDIA 2018. emotiva.com/blogs/info-hub-1/emotiva-gets-ready-for-11-5-8-dolby-atmosYes, this thread is all about speaker expansion. 11.1.8 ... who will be the first one? Trinnov obviously was first. StormAudio will be the first with a DSP-based system (TI/MDS APM-110) that will support 23.1 decoding/layouts. Others will follow at lower price points. Some interesting things (without upmixing); 1. No current DTS-X disks will play more than 7.1.4 Gary, you and I discussed this previously. Neural X is part of the Dts:X codec. As long as you stay within 11.1 (so 5.1.4 + Wides or 7.1.2 + Wides) Neural X will utilize Wides on a 7.1.4 Dts:X track. Verify this on a McIntosh/Lyngdorf, Denon (X7200, X6200), Marantz (AV7702, AV8802), or 2015 Onkyo/Integra (I'm not sure about Pioneer). Unfortunately the X8500, AV8805 and the Emotivas do not engage the Wides in these scenarios. Based on D+Ms responses, this won't be addressed until Pro is implemented for the ADI Griffin Lite chipsets. Emotiva is likely at the mercy of ADI on this. 2. True 3. There is plenty on Vudu, Netflix, and Amazon. Oblivion on Vudu is a great example. 4. Atmos can be implemented on a 5.1 or 7.1 bed (True-HD for lossless, DD+ for streaming). With a 5.1 bed the rears are almost always utilized (objects). It would be great if Emotiva implemented Vu meters for all channels but doubtful given the current state of development.
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Post by nospam on Oct 1, 2019 7:26:47 GMT -5
While Roger was the lead at Dolby, Jim Fosgate developed PLII. I believe it was Roger's idea to expand further with PLIIx & z. Roger is not a fan of modern upmixing (especially for music). He utilizes an Anthem for Atmos Dts:X and a separate processor (I think it's a Classe) for PLIIx upmixing. The Yamaha CX-5100 is the only pre-pro (there may have been an AVR as well) to retain PLII modes once Dolby Atmos was implemented. The CX-5200 also omitted PLII.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 1, 2019 9:02:01 GMT -5
Last night was John Wick 3 Parabellum at -12dB night with a 9.1.6 config. Was getting gun shots to register at 97dB on the sound meter. Very clear and tight gun shot sounds.
Noticed there was a lot of full range music coming out of the widths at times ... enough where tower speakers would be appropriate. Noticed some special effects (e.g. knife throwing) in widths. Widths really added a lot to the “front stage” presence in JW3.
Very rare was there rain coming out of widths. The one time was early in the movie where John Wick was running up the steps to the library. Got book shelve speakers for the six height speakers … so the fidelity is pretty good.
Any one listen for the differences btwn Tops and Heights speakers configurations? Might try doing that soon.
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Post by maryal29 on Oct 1, 2019 12:18:04 GMT -5
I had a Marantz av8805 (which I regret having sold) extract of the user manual:
Front Wide Support for AV8805: Pure Direct Multi-channel / Dolby True HD / Dolby Digital Plus / Dolby Atmos / DTS: X / DTS HD / DTS Neural: X / Multi channel
Front wide support for RMC-1: Dolby Atmos that's it!
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Post by cwt on Oct 1, 2019 13:24:38 GMT -5
While Roger was the lead at Dolby, Jim Fosgate developed PLII. I believe it was Roger's idea to expand further with PLIIx & z. Roger is not a fan of modern upmixing (especially for music). He utilizes an Anthem for Atmos Dts:X and a separate processor (I think it's a Classe) for PLIIx upmixing. The Yamaha CX-5100 is the only pre-pro (there may have been an AVR as well) to retain PLII modes once Dolby Atmos was implemented. The CX-5200 also omitted PLII. Yes indeed he had a few positions at dolby ' maybe better for me to say dolby licensed the tech as Roger explains in this pdf decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/PL_II_Mixing%20manual.pdfYes he's helping frequently in the Classe SSP800 thread so that's the one . I have a temporary CX5100 and its the antithesis of the RMC1 ; too many dsp modes and switching the earlier pl2 is an exercise in frustration [if I wanted too]. I would be happy though to see the RMC1 utilise even an extra basic dsp like CES 7.1 surround - a simple algorithm that came on a cirrus decoding chipset for a Cary cinema 11 more of an afterthought ; another minimalist dsp mode design.
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Post by TDifEQ on Oct 2, 2019 11:44:23 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad.
Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 2, 2019 13:32:56 GMT -5
Watched 4K DV/ATMOS Spider Man Away from Home last night with 9.1.6 config.. Widths were just wisps of special effect sounds ... no music at all. Totally opposite of 4K DV/ATMOS John Wick 3 which used widths effectively (WOW) for greater 3D immersion. First thing that was apparent was widths had to be cranked up in volume to even be noticeable. Seemed like sound going to widths were based on a very poor bot mathematical algorithm ... seemed like widths were not on the sound director's intent radar for 3D immersion. Too bad. Not sure what to think about the quality of the ATMOS sound track ... not sure how to judge it. I'll have to watch the movie again to figure out what to say about it. Weird. Of course Dolby Atmos does not support wides except as possible objective sound sources. In fact Dolby has said that they do not support wide because of diffraction interference. I too watched this movie last night. The sound was O.K. but seemed a little compressed to me. Height effects were pretty good. My system is 7.2.4
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