Chris
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 8, 2020 18:06:40 GMT -5
Hi,
I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers.
I have a couple of questions.
I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc.
When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp.
I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture.
How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db?
When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly?
I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them.
Thanks.
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Post by megash0n on Aug 8, 2020 18:52:39 GMT -5
Hi, I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers. I have a couple of questions. I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc. When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp. I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture. How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db? When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly? I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them. Thanks. do some testing between surround mode and DTS N:X. Some of us think it sounds awful. You may want to stick with Surround mode which keeps the underlying codec intact. These units don't handle DTS stuff well so far. (In some of our opinion) |
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Post by markc on Aug 9, 2020 11:42:14 GMT -5
Hi, I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers. I have a couple of questions. I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc. When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp. I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture. How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db? When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly? I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them. Thanks. What is the gain of the separate 2Ch amp you are using for the sound bouncers? This is the root cause. |
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 12, 2020 18:10:59 GMT -5
Hi, I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers. I have a couple of questions. I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc. When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp. I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture. How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db? When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly? I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them. Thanks. What is the gain of the separate 2Ch amp you are using for the sound bouncers? This is the root cause. I swapped out the first two channel atmos amp for another one that has gain control so I am now able to get matching levels (75db) with the rest of the system. I just updated the XMC-2 firmware to the July 2020 code update. I am now noticing my Atmos speakers are active even with non Atmos specific soundtracks? I am runnning the Default DD Dolby Surround settings. On 5.1 tracks the Atmos speakers are active as well as when DD Surround 2.0 signals. I guess the Atmos audio is being synthesised in these situations? |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 12, 2020 19:34:44 GMT -5
Hi, I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers. I have a couple of questions. I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc. When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp. I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture. How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db? When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly? I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them. Thanks. It sounds like you’re doing it right. Don’t worry about your measured levels vs what test tone level you’re on, between different amp and speaker sensitivities they will rarely match up (are you using ‘medium’?) What’s important is that the relative levels are correct. Using your remote is a temporary setting so don’t count it. |
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Post by megash0n on Aug 12, 2020 20:32:21 GMT -5
do some testing between surround mode and DTS N:X. Some of us think it sounds awful. You may want to stick with Surround mode which keeps the underlying codec intact. These units don't handle DTS stuff well so far. (In some of our opinion) Really ... did he mention anything about DTS? He’s looking for setup help, can you hold off on the agenda just a bit and try to stick to a topic? he did actually. 1st post. He might have missed all the other comments about DTS due to them being deleted, so I thought it would be helpful to point it out in case he was chasing his tail on why DTS:x sounded weird. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 12, 2020 20:47:03 GMT -5
Really ... did he mention anything about DTS? He’s looking for setup help, can you hold off on the agenda just a bit and try to stick to a topic? he did actually. 1st post. He might have missed all the other comments about DTS due to them being deleted, so I thought it would be helpful to point it out in case he was chasing his tail on why DTS:x sounded weird. Sorry, you're right, I'll let you handle this. |
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Post by markc on Aug 13, 2020 0:47:45 GMT -5
Hi, I decided to buy some Martin Logan AFX dolby atmos enabled speakers. I have a couple of questions. I enabled the Front Height speakers in my XMC-2, setting my ceiling height, speaker height, distance, etc. When I got to the speaker levels I was only able to get to about 68db (12db boost) versus the standard 75db for all my other speakers. The two atmos speakers are running off a separate two channel amp. I know my setup is not to the letter atmos layout (speakers only 21 inches off floor) but I think I am close enough for testing? My ceiling is 7'8" and has popcorn texture. How critical is the 68db versus 75 db levels I am seeing? Edit: I used the height trim on the remote to add another 7db to get to 75db? When I play dolby atmos enabled movies, the XMC-2 displays Atmos so I believe I am setup correctly? I also see reference to DTS Neural X? When should I be enabling this? I am testing with Ready Player One movie. I can't say I am hearing alot of height at my seat but I can confirm there is sound coming from my Atmos speakers when standing above them. Thanks. It sounds like you’re doing it right. Don’t worry about your measured levels vs what test tone level you’re on, between different amp and speaker sensitivities they will rarely match up (are you using ‘medium’?) What’s important is that the relative levels are correct. Using your remote is a temporary setting so don’t count it. He wasn't talking simply about absolute volume. Despite maximum level trims (+12dB) he was unable to get the Atmos enabled speakers to deliver the same volume as the main channels, hence the amplifier did not output enough power to those speakers and amplifier gain difference is the usual cause. (Different speaker sensitivity is the other but this is unlikely to give such a big difference) (I have two Gen 1 XPA-5 and the gain is 32dB, vs 29dB for the generation 2 XPA-5. The generation one puts out more volume for any given pre-amp signal voltage so if I had one of each XPA-5 generation, each of the five channels going to the gen 1 would need trim volume trimmed down in the Processor) However, Chris, AudioHTIT picked up on something else which I didn't. It does sound like you are cutting and boosting every channel to get to exactly 75dB. This is not best practice. Speaker level trims in the setup menu should not be used to get the speaker test tones to match the "standard" 75dB Getting them all at the SAME volume with any given test tone is the aim. It is however true that a tone playing at 75 dB will be better than a tone playing at 55dB, but if your medium tone plays at 68dB that is fine (or consider using 78dB on the high tone) Listen to the Front left speaker first - if that is playing at 68dB then leave that trim at zero. Then cycle through all speakers and get all speakers playing at the same 68dB using the level adjustments (For the subwoofer, leave trim at zero and adjust the volume on the subwoofer). THEN, identify your HIGHEST boost. You do not want to have any positive boosts within the trims. If it is positive (e.g. +3.5db) then you should reduce that channel from +3.5dB back to +0db and ALSO decrease the trim on every other channel by the same 3.5dB. Now you will have level matched speakers at 64.5dB using the same test tone, with no boosts above zero (which could introduce clipping), only zero and negative values. You are right, Chris, that 75dB is the accepted "standard" for setting volume levels so in my example above, I would then select the next higher test tone volume on the XMC-2 (high instead of medium) which is 10dB louder. Now recheck every speaker to make sure that they are the same volume as each other (and they will probably all be 74.5dB) Finally, using hand held meters to measure dB volume, the low frequency channels are often poorly measured due to microphone insensitivity at low frequencies, so consider having your subwoofer target about 3dB above the main channels - aim for 67.5dB in the example above. Most people prefer this |
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 13, 2020 20:06:48 GMT -5
It sounds like you’re doing it right. Don’t worry about your measured levels vs what test tone level you’re on, between different amp and speaker sensitivities they will rarely match up (are you using ‘medium’?) What’s important is that the relative levels are correct. Using your remote is a temporary setting so don’t count it. He wasn't talking simply about absolute volume. Despite maximum level trims (+12dB) he was unable to get the Atmos enabled speakers to deliver the same volume as the main channels, hence the amplifier did not output enough power to those speakers and amplifier gain difference is the usual cause. (Different speaker sensitivity is the other but this is unlikely to give such a big difference) (I have two Gen 1 XPA-5 and the gain is 32dB, vs 29dB for the generation 2 XPA-5. The generation one puts out more volume for any given pre-amp signal voltage so if I had one of each XPA-5 generation, each of the five channels going to the gen 1 would need trim volume trimmed down in the Processor) However, Chris, AudioHTIT picked up on something else which I didn't. It does sound like you are cutting and boosting every channel to get to exactly 75dB. This is not best practice. Speaker level trims in the setup menu should not be used to get the speaker test tones to match the "standard" 75dB Getting them all at the SAME volume with any given test tone is the aim. It is however true that a tone playing at 75 dB will be better than a tone playing at 55dB, but if your medium tone plays at 68dB that is fine (or consider using 78dB on the high tone) Listen to the Front left speaker first - if that is playing at 68dB then leave that trim at zero. Then cycle through all speakers and get all speakers playing at the same 68dB using the level adjustments (For the subwoofer, leave trim at zero and adjust the volume on the subwoofer). THEN, identify your HIGHEST boost. You do not want to have any positive boosts within the trims. If it is positive (e.g. +3.5db) then you should reduce that channel from +3.5dB back to +0db and ALSO decrease the trim on every other channel by the same 3.5dB. Now you will have level matched speakers at 64.5dB using the same test tone, with no boosts above zero (which could introduce clipping), only zero and negative values. You are right, Chris, that 75dB is the accepted "standard" for setting volume levels so in my example above, I would then select the next higher test tone volume on the XMC-2 (high instead of medium) which is 10dB louder. Now recheck every speaker to make sure that they are the same volume as each other (and they will probably all be 74.5dB) Finally, using hand held meters to measure dB volume, the low frequency channels are often poorly measured due to microphone insensitivity at low frequencies, so consider having your subwoofer target about 3dB above the main channels - aim for 67.5dB in the example above. Most people prefer this I really appreciate your detailed instructions. I went back to my levels. I used the medium test tone and used a reference of 68db as you suggested. Here are the settings I ended up with: LF 1.5, C 2.5, RF 0.5, RS 0, LS 1.0, L Top Fr 3.0, R Top Fr 3.5, Sub 0. For the sub I only get 53db on my meter with the sub pot at max. When listening to a Movie, I set the XMC-2 to 10 which gives 85db Max peak with meter. I felt the sub might be a bit high so I backed it off a quarter turn. I know every system/room is different but do these numbers appear to be in the ball park? My only concern is that I have to turn the volume up fairly high on the XMC-2. I know that I can go beyond 0 with the gain. I guess my AMP (Cherry AMP 5 channel Class D) has lower gain? As you mentioned, my first gen Emovita XPA-5 amp did seem to have more gain. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 13, 2020 20:16:10 GMT -5
... I guess my AMP (Cherry AMP 5 channel Class D) has lower gain? That’s likely part of the issue, they don’t give a gain spec, but it takes a lot to get it to rated output: Input Sensitivity: 3.1VrmsSomething to be aware of is that you will lose more gain with Dirac. |
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Post by megash0n on Aug 13, 2020 20:18:08 GMT -5
... I guess my AMP (Cherry AMP 5 channel Class D) has lower gain? That’s likely part of the issue, they don’t give a gain spec, but it takes a lot to get it to rated output: Input Sensitivity: 3.1VrmsSomething to be aware of is that you will lose more gain with Dirac. wouldn't this be a situation where those channels need to be set, and then everything else turned down to match those during Dirac volume calibration prior to proceeding? |
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 13, 2020 20:23:02 GMT -5
... I guess my AMP (Cherry AMP 5 channel Class D) has lower gain? That’s likely part of the issue, they don’t give a gain spec, but it takes a lot to get it to rated output: Input Sensitivity: 3.1VrmsSomething to be aware of is that you will lose more gain with Dirac. I don't think I can afford to lose much more gain?  That's why I was previously boosting my levels more. Also, is it correct for the Atmos speakers to be active when listening to non-Atmos sources? The Atmos speakers are always on even when listening to the default Dolby Surround setting on the XMC-2 even when the source is 2.0. Is the Dolby Surround like the old Prologic II and synthesizing the Atmos content like the surround channels? |
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Post by megash0n on Aug 13, 2020 20:30:03 GMT -5
That’s likely part of the issue, they don’t give a gain spec, but it takes a lot to get it to rated output: Input Sensitivity: 3.1VrmsSomething to be aware of is that you will lose more gain with Dirac. I don't think I can afford to lose much more gain? That's why I was previously boosting my levels more. Also, is it correct for the Atmos speakers to be active when listening to non-Atmos sources? The Atmos speakers are always on even when listening to the default Dolby Surround setting on the XMC-2 even when the source is 2.0. Is the Dolby Surround like the old Prologic II and synthesizing the Atmos content like the surround channels? Dolby Surround should be upmixing the things Emotiva allows it to. So, if you can engage it, yes... You'll likely hear the immersive speakers. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 13, 2020 20:30:20 GMT -5
That’s likely part of the issue, they don’t give a gain spec, but it takes a lot to get it to rated output: Input Sensitivity: 3.1VrmsSomething to be aware of is that you will lose more gain with Dirac. I don't think I can afford to lose much more gain? That's why I was previously boosting my levels more. Also, is it correct for the Atmos speakers to be active when listening to non-Atmos sources? The Atmos speakers are always on even when listening to the default Dolby Surround setting on the XMC-2 even when the source is 2.0. Is the Dolby Surround like the old Prologic II and synthesizing the Atmos content like the surround channels? Yes, the DSU — Dolby Surround Upmixer — will try to use all of the speakers you have configured (some material lends itself to being unmixed more than others) and yes, it’s the latest evolution of PLII. |
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Chris
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Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 13, 2020 21:28:02 GMT -5
I probably won't use Dirac. I tried it with my XMC-1 and I didn't feel it worked well with my Martin Logan dipoles. Maybe I will revisit? I really am only interested in adjusting frequencies in the Schroeder/Transition Frequency and below. That is to say below about 300hz and under. My Martin Logan's have several controls/tapers to deal with this troublesome region below 300hz. I've got things pretty well tuned since I use my system for both Home Theater and direct two channel playback. Not sure Dirac would really improve things?
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 14, 2020 8:49:03 GMT -5
I've revisited my levels yet again. I just feel I need a bit more gain. So as a compromise, I am using 70db as my target with the medium test tone. My new levels are now: LF 2.0, C 4.5, RF 2.0, RS 2.5, LS 4.0, L Top Fr 5.5, R Top Fr 5.5, Sub 0.
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Post by markc on Aug 14, 2020 15:15:32 GMT -5
I really appreciate your detailed instructions. I went back to my levels. I used the medium test tone and used a reference of 68db as you suggested. Here are the settings I ended up with: LF 1.5, C 2.5, RF 0.5, RS 0, LS 1.0, L Top Fr 3.0, R Top Fr 3.5, Sub 0. For the sub I only get 53db on my meter with the sub pot at max. When listening to a Movie, I set the XMC-2 to 10 which gives 85db Max peak with meter. I felt the sub might be a bit high so I backed it off a quarter turn. I know every system/room is different but do these numbers appear to be in the ball park? My only concern is that I have to turn the volume up fairly high on the XMC-2. I know that I can go beyond 0 with the gain. I guess my AMP (Cherry AMP 5 channel Class D) has lower gain? As you mentioned, my first gen Emovita XPA-5 amp did seem to have more gain. Hi Chris. Firstly, as you are running a 5.1.2 setup, I would try your pair of Dolby Atmos enabled Martin Logan's setup as Top Middle versus Top Front, Dolby are not too specific when it comes to Dolby Enabled, but with other 5.1.2 setups, the Top Middle is specified (versus x.1.4 having Top Front and Top Rear) I tried my ceiling speakers and with Top Middle, there is a lot more output directed to them as Middle rather than Front (and even then the content is not massive) Are all those numbers positive values or LF -1.5, C -2.5, RF -0.5, RS 0, LS -1.0, L Top Fr -3.0, R Top Fr -3.5, Sub 0? If so, that is fine. If they are all boosts and positive values then you should take 3.5dB off them (as your highest reading is R Top Fr 3.5 I don't recall if you are using Dirac? The reason I ask is that Dirac filters with too much correction can really mute the volume of every channel. |
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Chris
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Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 14, 2020 17:16:05 GMT -5
Yes, all my level settings are positive. I have revised with a little more boost since my amp has less gain.
There is plenty of sound coming out of my Atmos speakers, especially in DD surround up mix mode. I'm not sure about your Top Middle setup. I specifically printed out the official Dolby 5.1.2 PDF and they show the speakers in the front on top of the Left and Right front speakers. I had to compromise because my Martin Logan ESL speakers don't have a top! I the Atmos speakers on stands right next to the front speakers. They are only about 25" in height so I'm a little low but still in the ball park. Raising them higer would block parts of my TV.
At this point I am not using Dirac and don't have plans to do so in the future.
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Post by markc on Aug 15, 2020 1:19:36 GMT -5
Yes, all my level settings are positive. I have revised with a little more boost since my amp has less gain. There is plenty of sound coming out of my Atmos speakers, especially in DD surround up mix mode. I'm not sure about your Top Middle setup. I specifically printed out the official Dolby 5.1.2 PDF and they show the speakers in the front on top of the Left and Right front speakers. I had to compromise because my Martin Logan ESL speakers don't have a top! I the Atmos speakers on stands right next to the front speakers. They are only about 25" in height so I'm a little low but still in the ball park. Raising them higer would block parts of my TV. At this point I am not using Dirac and don't have plans to do so in the future. Yes, the speakers should sit on top of the front speakers but your compromise will be ok.- the issue is how you configure them in the XMC-2 setup menu With 5.1.2 and 7.1.2 using ceiling mounted speakers (Dolby doesn't support direct firing wall mounted Atmos speakers) when there are just.2 Atmos speakers, they should be configured as Top Middle. This way they get some rear and front height sound directed to them. If they are configured as Top Front then they only get front sound direction. With Atmos Enabled speakers, Dolby doesn't actually specify anything at all for how they should be configured in the Processor! |
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Aug 15, 2020 12:09:08 GMT -5
Yes, all my level settings are positive. I have revised with a little more boost since my amp has less gain. There is plenty of sound coming out of my Atmos speakers, especially in DD surround up mix mode. I'm not sure about your Top Middle setup. I specifically printed out the official Dolby 5.1.2 PDF and they show the speakers in the front on top of the Left and Right front speakers. I had to compromise because my Martin Logan ESL speakers don't have a top! I the Atmos speakers on stands right next to the front speakers. They are only about 25" in height so I'm a little low but still in the ball park. Raising them higer would block parts of my TV. At this point I am not using Dirac and don't have plans to do so in the future. Yes, the speakers should sit on top of the front speakers but your compromise will be ok.- the issue is how you configure them in the XMC-2 setup menu With 5.1.2 and 7.1.2 using ceiling mounted speakers (Dolby doesn't support direct firing wall mounted Atmos speakers) when there are just.2 Atmos speakers, they should be configured as Top Middle. This way they get some rear and front height sound directed to them. If they are configured as Top Front then they only get front sound direction. With Atmos Enabled speakers, Dolby doesn't actually specify anything at all for how they should be configured in the Processor! Okay I am going to give your suggestion a try. I am confused about whether I should use "Sm Top Middle" as you seem to suggest versus "Dolby Enabled Middle" Again, I am using Martin Logan AFX speakers which are touted as being "Dolby Enabled" and usually meant to sit on top of a traditional floor stand speaker cabinet. |
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