Kaleidescape?

[msimanyi]

I've been considering some changes to my system, and recently ordered an 83" Sony A90J, which hasn't yet been calibrated and delivered.  As part of that transaction I have an option to buy into the Kaleidescape system with a small discount.

I've researched the heck out of Kaleidescape and I'm ready to pull the trigger... BUT I first want to make sure there aren't any odd problems integrating with an RMC-1 and the latest firmware.

I found some older posts - 2020? - saying the two play well together, but just want to confirm that's still the case.  Anyone care to comment?

[KeithL]

It looks like an interesting option...

From what I've seen their hardware is essentially a video server.

Rather than stream the content you basically download it onto the server and then view it locally.

(And you don't have to worry about buffering or Internet speed because the movie is downloaded ahead of time and played from your local server.)

And you can both "rent" movies or "purchase" movies".

There also seems to be an option to "tell the system about discs you already own and have them be downloaded to and played from the system".

I only see one or two issues that may or may not be important or even "deal breakers".

1)

As far as I can tell they seem to have the same concept of "owning a movie" that the cable companies have.

In other words, even if you "purchase" a movie, UNLIKE A DISC, YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU IF YOU LEAVE KALEIDESCAPE OR THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS.

(In today's volatile market this is sort of an issue. If they go out of business, or suddenly double their prices, or their selection dwindles, you're kind of stuck.)

You also can't sell a disc you get tired of, lend it to your buddy, or take it to your friend's house and play it on his non-Kaleidescape system.

[ I personally consider this to be a misrepresentation bordering on fraud... you are NOT purchasing a copy of the movie but merely a perpetual license to watch it on their system. ]

2)

They say that you CAN "register" discs that you actually own - which will then enable you to download a copy of that movie onto their system (as if it had been "purchased" from them).

Yet they also warn that "not all content is available for this option".

I would wonder how good their "coverage" is - especially on more obscure titles.

(And, since your local storage is limited, how good their coverage is on titles that are simply a few years old.)

3)

I DID NOT see any actual pricing.

I would really like to know if their movies cost less than purchasing the disc or not.

(Since there are disadvantages to purchasing a movie from them compared to purchasing a disc I would like to see a price comparison.)

4)

I heard some very expansive claims about image and audio quality.

Are they REALLY saying that they will be providing you a higher quality version of the movie that is on a 4k disc?

(If so, then the questions of which companies are willing to license those high quality master copies to them becomes an interesting question.)

(if not then they are exaggerating the benefits of playing a movie from a hard disc rather than a 4k Blu-Ray disc.)

They are essentially asking you to make a major investment on what amounts to a very expensive rental property...

This would make me nervous.

Mar 8, 2022 16:18:46 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

I've been considering some changes to my system, and recently ordered an 83" Sony A90J, which hasn't yet been calibrated and delivered.  As part of that transaction I have an option to buy into the Kaleidescape system with a small discount.

I've researched the heck out of Kaleidescape and I'm ready to pull the trigger... BUT I first want to make sure there aren't any odd problems integrating with an RMC-1 and the latest firmware.

I found some older posts - 2020? - saying the two play well together, but just want to confirm that's still the case.  Anyone care to comment?

[msimanyi]

Thanks Keith.

Actually, I wasn't writing to inquire about the experience or the price. The philosophy and implementation are apparently highly polarizing, with lots of people saying K should sell the hardware and service for less and make it up in volume, while others say owning cloud licenses is absurd, and others say streaming is the future, and still others say they can't possibly be using anything other than the same master used for the discs so there's no improvement to be had. There are two ^ x sides to every story though, and I happen to like what I see in the service and function. Yes, it's a premium service and the hardware is foolishly expensive. I believe the movies are generally similarly priced to discs.

I just want to make sure there haven't been any odd issues between the Kaleidescape hardware and Emotiva processors. On the surface the two should work fine. But the same can be said for any other HDMI device and the processor, and we know people are discussing audio dropouts and other anomalies that are causing problems on the AppleTV device. (To be clear: I have an AppleTV 4k and have had some audio dropouts, but it's been good for a couple months now.)

[steelman1991]

When I had the RMC-1, there were no playback issues between the devices.

Just a quick comment, Kaleidescape get the same masters as the disc authoring companies. Difference is they do their own encoding and aren't restricted by disc sizes, so where they feel a specific title might benefit from extra bitrate, then they can provide it. Most titles are on a par with thier disc counterparts.

[drtrey3]

I had some music from Music Giants I think the name was. Full cd files loaded on my computer as flacs. There was a system that would check the legitimacy of the download to reduce piracy. It worked great until Music Giants went out of business. Then none of those files would play. I found a work around by re-ripping the hard copies I had made at the time of "purchase." Without those backups, I would not have some pretty great music I paid for. So yeah, I guess that is why I like physical media.

Trey

[housetech]

Beware
I looked at the Kaleidescape around 2008ish after buying two D&M Escient music server/player/recorders. Kaleidescapes are very nice and the design idea is great, expensive, but...
D&M shut down the proxy server for the Escients needed to get metadata for the music information. Two things occurred- could not add new music without manually inputting the data and made it impossible to replace a bad HDD, so they became very expensive bricks. I will never buy anything with custom designed industrial software that can't be altered or updated, nor anything that relies on the manufacturer's proxy server.

For the money, I would consider a custom built PC and if need be, have the software installed and set-up by a professional. At least you control ownership and can update any software or hardware as needed.
just sayin...

[msimanyi]

Thanks for all the comments folks. My question wasn't about the service or the product, in general. It was simply about compatibility between their hardware and an RMC-1.

Those of you who don't favor K, I get it. I disagree - for me - but for you that's the right decision.

[Lsc]

Mar 9, 2022 12:36:37 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

Thanks for all the comments folks. My question wasn't about the service or the product, in general. It was simply about compatibility between their hardware and an RMC-1.

Those of you who don't favor K, I get it. I disagree - for me - but for you that's the right decision.

I think the service looks amazing. I’d like to get it as well so I can get the highest quality movies right at my fingertips.

[KeithL]

Just to be fair here I don't specifically think that there's anything wrong with the concept itself, AS LONG AS THEY'RE HONEST ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE BUYING.

(You are buying a perpetual license to watch that content, as long as they remain in business, and as long as they don't somehow lose rights to that content.)

This essentially makes it an expensive, but excellent quality, "streaming alternative".

I personally would find it uncomfortable to "purchase" something I wish to own for a long time under those conditions.

I prefer to stream some things - but to actually own others that I wish to have permanent access to.

However, when viewed as an alternative to "lower quality regular streaming", and NOT as "true ownership", it seems like an excellent option.

And, from what I've heard, Kaleidescape has been in business for several years, so they don't seem to be an especially bad risk.

Services like NetFlix are limited to streaming movies at somewhere around 25% of the bandwidth of an actual 4k disc - at best.

Depending on the quality of the original video, and the actual amount of image detail required, this higher level of compression can quite often be visible. 

There are also obvious issues with dropouts caused by short outages and other such minor but annoying problems.

Therefore there IS a distinct advantage to being able to stream movies locally - and at the same quality as an actual disc.

There is, however, one thing which I think would be extremely useful to know...

ONCE YOU HAVE CHOSEN A MOVIE AND DOWNLOADED IT, can you then make a copy on a separate hard drive to keep?

(I suspect that you cannot... and that the copy you have locally is still "locked to your license"... but I do consider it problematic that they neglect to explain this up-front.)

Just to be clear...

The only real issue I have with their business model is that, if they were to go out of business tomorrow, everything you've "purchased" from them would magically vanish...

And, more to the point, they clearly neglect to warn you about this limitation...

It's technically no worse than any other product that will stop working if it loses access to some sort of "subscription"...

The only real catch is that, over time, many people may end up with a huge investment in not only hardware but movies, which is all contingent in this fashion.

(If they were to go out of business... it would be like having your house burn down... and taking your entire movie collection with it... and I suspect that your insurance wouldn't cover the loss.)

Mar 9, 2022 12:36:37 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

Thanks for all the comments folks. My question wasn't about the service or the product, in general. It was simply about compatibility between their hardware and an RMC-1.

Those of you who don't favor K, I get it. I disagree - for me - but for you that's the right decision.

[cheapthryl]

Mar 9, 2022 12:36:37 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

Thanks for all the comments folks. My question wasn't about the service or the product, in general. It was simply about compatibility between their hardware and an RMC-1.

Those of you who don't favor K, I get it. I disagree - for me - but for you that's the right decision.

Maybe by time this thread is 4 or 5 pages long you will get more than one DIRECT answer to your inquiry (standard operating procedure around here). Wish I had something more to contribute.
Good luck in finding the ACTUAL information you seek.

[steelman1991]

Mar 9, 2022 15:45:26 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The only real issue I have with their business model is that, if they were to go out of business tomorrow, everything you've "purchased" from them would magically vanish...

And, more to the point, they clearly neglect to warn you about this limitation...

It's technically no worse than any other product that will stop working if it loses access to some sort of "subscription"...

The only real catch is that, over time, many people may end up with a huge investment in not only hardware but movies, which is all contingent in this fashion.

(If they were to go out of business... it would be like having your house burn down... and taking your entire movie collection with it... and I suspect that your insurance wouldn't cover the loss.)

Mar 9, 2022 12:36:37 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

Thanks for all the comments folks. My question wasn't about the service or the product, in general. It was simply about compatibility between their hardware and an RMC-1.

Those of you who don't favor K, I get it. I disagree - for me - but for you that's the right decision.

It's a pity you didn't carry out a little more research, before you spread FUD about a product you clearly know little about - stick to Emotiva and their honest business practices. Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".

The files won't "magically vanish" - they are there on your server/player equipment and will be available so long as the hardware continues to function. How long that would be is for a different discussion., but the movies won't "vanish".

[KeithL]

Cool... so their local player DOESN'T check with their license server before playing movies that you have stored locally (and you've actually confirmed this)...

Please note that I did not say that this would definitely be an issue...

However, since many services do to some degree link locally stored content to your account, and it has been an issue with other services in the past, it is not an unreasonable concern.

And, since this is a serious concern TO ME, that would absolutely have been a potential deal-breaker.

My main issue with the way Kaleidescape does things is that they don't EXPLAIN details like this...

I would have no issue whatsoever if they were simply describing what they offer as "a super quality streaming solution".

(From that point of view it seems like an excellent choice.)

However, we all KNOW that, if we buy a 4k disc, and our current player breaks, that disc will play on another player.

And, for that matter, we will be able to take that disc to a friend's house to watch, or even sell it on eBay.

Since they are describing their offering as a direct alternative to that it seems reasonable that they should detail ALL of the significant differences...

Incidentally, what I said is still somewhat of an issue.

Your local storage server has some specific amount of storage capacity - which will eventually fill up.

And, once that space fills up, in order to watch any movie not stored locally, you must delete one local movie to make space, and then download the one you want from Kaleidescape.

I was going to go into more detail about my specific concerns... but I've decided not to.

Suffice it to say that what they're offering is a quite reasonable compromise between streaming and local storage.

I VERY MUCH LIKE the idea of downloading the entire movie before watching it - which frees you from several issues with connection bandwidth. 

But I find the fact that you are, to at least some degree, becoming dependent on them to be able to access your content.

Make no mistake that what you're buying is more like "a very high end streaming solution" than "actually purchasing movies".

If you decide next year that you just don't like Kaleidescape you can't take the movies you've "bought" and play them on something else.

[

I've decided to add a sort of editorial comment here...

From what I've read, Kaleidescape offers a very nice product, which I would absolutely consider purchasing if I was a serious consumer of streaming movies.

My ONLY issue with them, and with most cable companies as well, is that they describe what is effectively a perpetual license to stream content as if it were a "purchase".

For example, your cable company should be up-front and state that, if you move to a different provider, you will NOT be able to take the movies you "bought" with you.

(If you had actually bought that movie then you should get a license which would allow you to view it on whatever service provider you currently use at any given time.)

And, likewise, Kaleidescape should specifically mention that your ability to watch content you've "purchased" from them is tied in some ways to them and their hardware.

This is not really a big deal for most people - except for the fact that it is a mis-statement, by omission, of the facts.

(Imagine "buying" something in a store... only to be told that, "even though you bought it, and now own it, you can't leave the store with it" or "it will only play on their player".)

I also firmly suspect that they avoid doing so simply in order to avoid scaring off customers for whom those limitations really aren't a major issue.

I honestly do understand this motivation, and even sympathize with it, but I still find it misleading.

]

Mar 10, 2022 4:24:23 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

Mar 9, 2022 15:45:26 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The only real issue I have with their business model is that, if they were to go out of business tomorrow, everything you've "purchased" from them would magically vanish...

And, more to the point, they clearly neglect to warn you about this limitation...

It's technically no worse than any other product that will stop working if it loses access to some sort of "subscription"...

The only real catch is that, over time, many people may end up with a huge investment in not only hardware but movies, which is all contingent in this fashion.

(If they were to go out of business... it would be like having your house burn down... and taking your entire movie collection with it... and I suspect that your insurance wouldn't cover the loss.)

It's a pity you didn't carry out a little more research, before you spread FUD about a product you clearly know little about - stick to Emotiva and their honest business practices. Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".

The files won't "magically vanish" - they are there on your server/player equipment and will be available so long as the hardware continues to function. How long that would be is for a different discussion., but the movies won't "vanish".

[msimanyi]

Since this has gone so far sideways from my original inquiry, I'll just leave this here:

youtu.be/I-aw9-B3-XI

Edited to add that is a link to what I think is an interesting discussion about audio and video quality.

I'll add that the risk of Kaleidescape is that they go out of business. They hit a low point in 2016, where they temporarily shut down the servers. Since then there hasn't been a hiccup and they've expanded their management in the last couple years, to increase their "reach." To me, their momentum seems to be increasing.

In most cases, you can achieve materially similar results by buying the discs and retaining them for yourself, so K really isn't necessary by that standard. I've read that they do have 4k movies that aren't available on disc, though I doubt those are mainstream or in demand. They have concerts too, which appeals to me. If they edit their version to fix a problem, you get the benefit of that edit. If someone fixes a disc... you're buying it again.

There are tons of positives and negatives to their product, but we're all free to make our choices. If you want to save money - and please note, I have zero experience with this - I think you can set up a plex server and rip all your discs to storage, replaying from the server. Go to town with that! I won't criticize ya...

All I wanted to know was: is there a conflict between their hardware and an RMC-1 running firmware 2.5. Sadly, it seems nobody can answer that question. I'll post back in this thread if there's any trouble once I get things set up.

[doc1963]

msimanyi... I think that you're not getting a multitude of responses with the answer that you're seeking simply because there's obviously very few of us who own a Kaleidescape system.

If you're a member of the AVS Forum, they have a dedicated thread (although, not an "owners" thread) where you might receive a better response. You'll find that thread HERE.

Hope this helps...

[KeithL]

I may be able to offer some insight there...

We test our equipment pretty thoroughly to comply with the standards.

Most of the problems we have are with other gear that is somewhat less than totally standards compliant.

(I'm not naming any names but some companies who sell a huge number of units of a low cost product with a lot of features seem to think that

"because so many people buy their product, everybody else has to work with them, and so they don't have to worry about following standards"... )

Considering Kaleidescape's position in the market...

As a premium product intended to work seamlessly with other gear...

And deliver exceptional video and audio quality in a variety of high end systems...

I'm betting that they're very standards compliant... and that they won't have any problems working with our gear.

It's also worth noting that many mainstream movies still come out on streaming services before being available on disc - sometimes significantly sooner.

You are then faced with the decision of watching them right away, but potentially with reduced video or audio quality, or waiting for the disc to become available.

Therefore, Kaleidescape is offering you a significant benefit in that regard, by offering you "disc quality on a streaming timeline".

(And that's still true even if you end up buying a copy of a few of your favorites later on disc as a backup copy.)

And, obviously, we will be eagerly looking forward to hearing how this all works out for you.

Mar 10, 2022 15:31:30 GMT -5 msimanyi said:

Since this has gone so far sideways from my original inquiry, I'll just leave this here:

youtu.be/I-aw9-B3-XI

I'll add that the risk of Kaleidescape is that they go out of business. They hit a low point in 2016, where they temporarily shut down the servers. Since then there hasn't been a hiccup and they've expanded their management in the last couple years, to increase their "reach." To me, their momentum seems to be increasing.

In most cases, you can achieve materially similar results by buying the discs and retaining them for yourself, so K really isn't necessary by that standard. I've read that they do have 4k movies that aren't available on disc, though I doubt those are mainstream or in demand. They have concerts too, which appeals to me. If they edit their version to fix a problem, you get the benefit of that edit. If someone fixes a disc... you're buying it again.

There are tons of positives and negatives to their product, but we're all free to make our choices. If you want to save money - and please note, I have zero experience with this - I think you can set up a plex server and rip all your discs to storage, replaying from the server. Go to town with that! I won't criticize ya...

All I wanted to know was: is there a conflict between their hardware and an RMC-1 running firmware 2.5. Sadly, it seems nobody can answer that question. I'll post back in this thread if there's any trouble once I get things set up.

[KeithL]

It's also worth noting that Kaleidescape's current product offering is significantly different than it was originally.

They originally sold "music servers" designed to enable you to RIP discs that you already owned onto a server...

And, ten or fifteen years ago, this fell into a sort of grey area legally, which seems to be the source of many of their business problems back then...

Since it is now more or less universally agreed that making copies for your own use is clearly legal after all this means that their issues back then were more a sign of the times than a reflection on them...

Their current product line, which now includes the content itself, is really a very different product, with a very different business model.

Therefore I would therefore advise anyone considering their current products to look at recent reviews and comments...

(And ignore or discount really old reviews and comments that refer to their older "RIP your discs and serve them to you" products.)

Mar 10, 2022 15:47:41 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

msimanyi ... I think that you're not getting a multitude of responses with the answer that you're seeking simply because there's obviously very few of us who own a Kaleidescape system.

If you're a member of the AVS Forum, they have a dedicated thread (although, not an "owners" thread) where you might receive a better response. You'll find that thread HERE.

Hope this helps...

[msimanyi]

Thanks Keith! I appreciate this background on compatibility.

[steelman1991]

Mar 10, 2022 13:57:00 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Cool... so their local player DOESN'T check with their license server before playing movies that you have stored locally (and you've actually confirmed this)...

Please note that I did not say that this would definitely be an issue...

However, since many services do to some degree link locally stored content to your account, and it has been an issue with other services in the past, it is not an unreasonable concern.

And, since this is a serious concern TO ME, that would absolutely have been a potential deal-breaker.

My main issue with the way Kaleidescape does things is that they don't EXPLAIN details like this...

I would have no issue whatsoever if they were simply describing what they offer as "a super quality streaming solution".

(From that point of view it seems like an excellent choice.)

However, we all KNOW that, if we buy a 4k disc, and our current player breaks, that disc will play on another player.

And, for that matter, we will be able to take that disc to a friend's house to watch, or even sell it on eBay.

Since they are describing their offering as a direct alternative to that it seems reasonable that they should detail ALL of the significant differences...

Incidentally, what I said is still somewhat of an issue.

Your local storage server has some specific amount of storage capacity - which will eventually fill up.

And, once that space fills up, in order to watch any movie not stored locally, you must delete one local movie to make space, and then download the one you want from Kaleidescape.

I was going to go into more detail about my specific concerns... but I've decided not to.

Suffice it to say that what they're offering is a quite reasonable compromise between streaming and local storage.

I VERY MUCH LIKE the idea of downloading the entire movie before watching it - which frees you from several issues with connection bandwidth. 

But I find the fact that you are, to at least some degree, becoming dependent on them to be able to access your content.

Make no mistake that what you're buying is more like "a very high end streaming solution" than "actually purchasing movies".

If you decide next year that you just don't like Kaleidescape you can't take the movies you've "bought" and play them on something else.

[

I've decided to add a sort of editorial comment here...

From what I've read, Kaleidescape offers a very nice product, which I would absolutely consider purchasing if I was a serious consumer of streaming movies.

My ONLY issue with them, and with most cable companies as well, is that they describe what is effectively a perpetual license to stream content as if it were a "purchase".

For example, your cable company should be up-front and state that, if you move to a different provider, you will NOT be able to take the movies you "bought" with you.

(If you had actually bought that movie then you should get a license which would allow you to view it on whatever service provider you currently use at any given time.)

And, likewise, Kaleidescape should specifically mention that your ability to watch content you've "purchased" from them is tied in some ways to them and their hardware.

This is not really a big deal for most people - except for the fact that it is a mis-statement, by omission, of the facts.

(Imagine "buying" something in a store... only to be told that, "even though you bought it, and now own it, you can't leave the store with it" or "it will only play on their player".)

I also firmly suspect that they avoid doing so simply in order to avoid scaring off customers for whom those limitations really aren't a major issue.

I honestly do understand this motivation, and even sympathize with it, but I still find it misleading.

]

Mar 10, 2022 4:24:23 GMT -5 steelman1991 said:

It's a pity you didn't carry out a little more research, before you spread FUD about a product you clearly know little about - stick to Emotiva and their honest business practices. Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".

The files won't "magically vanish" - they are there on your server/player equipment and will be available so long as the hardware continues to function. How long that would be is for a different discussion., but the movies won't "vanish".

Yes the titles work without access to the internet (other than downloading) and do not require any checks. Yes I have had experience when I had no internet access for 3 weeks. A large part of their buisness is Marine Craft and many have no access to internet and rely on local playback.

All this and answers to your other questions and concerns are available at the Kaleidescape website and with a little google searching. I suggest you do some. They have AFAIA never suggested their titles can be shared between systems or played on anything other than their proprietary hardware.

Yes local storage will fill up - solution purchase more storage. That's their business model. If an individual chooses the route you suggest to consume their content, then they have to be prepared to lose titles should the worst happen and their servers go dark. You pick your poison.

[webmst007]

For anyone not familiar with this product - here's a review of their latest offering www.projectorreviews.com/kaleidescape/kaleidescape-compact-terra-6tb-movie-server-review/

Comments I thought of interest were:
Some 4k film releases are from studios not interested in 4k uhd disc releases and as a comment on quality some 4k films available can be up to 40% larger file sizes compared to 4k uhd discs.
Finally the rental options sounded interesting as well.

as a projector person - the K offering has been on my radar for a long time but the costs have always been prohibitive.

I've also considered Zidoo or Zapatti servers as an alternative
www.zidoo.tv/Product/os/model/NEO+X/target/jQxBO63RBpZKKmVViAFMcQ%3D%3D.html

www.zappiti.com/zappiti-experience

What I like about these offerings -and it goes to Keith's issues- is you can buy the 4k media ; copy and store a copy on your own disc drives ; then access the full library in a really good interface ( like the K offering). So not quite the ease of use or in some cases the quality of the K offering. But you do retain "ownership" of the media whilst operating with the speed and ease of a streaming service and digital library.

I don't think any of these devices or the K systems will have any issues with a RMC style device.


I should also disclose this has always been only an academic exercise for me here in Australia as the K catalogue is not available here due to legal restrictions. To clarify - the units can be used here but there is no access to the K library available.

[doc1963]

webmst007… I can’t speak for the others that you mentioned, but I can confirm that my Zidoo Z1000 Pro has no issues at all with my RMC-1L.