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Post by quattroll2 on Jan 24, 2024 17:03:04 GMT -5
Hi Lounge,
I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection.
Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful.
Thanks all.
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Post by adaboy on Jan 24, 2024 18:13:21 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection. Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful. Thanks all. I for max bitrate I chose Coax over Optical. Coaxial connection can support higher quality audio up to 24-bit/192kHz. Optical is usually restricted to 96kHz. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jan 25, 2024 9:47:36 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection. Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful. Thanks all. This was discussed recently here : emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/61078/coax-optical |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 25, 2024 10:00:19 GMT -5
The Emotiva XDA-3 can handle 24/192 on both optical and coax. The 24/96 limit on optical is generally on older products. I prefer optical, when available, for the isolation. I've never heard a difference between the two types, regardless of the limits.
Just use one or the other and forget about Reviewer hand wringing.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jan 25, 2024 10:46:16 GMT -5
Indeed... especially the comment about "reviewer hand wringing"... (After all, they do need to find something to talk about, or there would be no point in doing a review.) The realities are this: 0. The real bottom line is that, on most equipment, all of the various inputs sound about the same... But, on some gear, the inputs may sound slightly different, and for a wide variety of reasons. 1. ALL optical inputs provide total electrical isolation (sometimes referred to as "galvanic isolation"). Galvanic isolation eliminates the possibility of various sorts of "ground noise". Some Coax or USB inputs have galvanic isolation... but it is inherent with an optical connection. 2. In the past MANY optical inputs were limited, compared to other inputs, in terms of maximum speed... with 96k being common. You will still find that, on many products, the optical outputs and inputs have different limitations than the other inputs. 3. It is a widely accepted fact that optical connections USUALLY have far higher (worse) jitter than Coax inputs. And, if you read "audiophile discussions" it is generally agreed that "Coax is better than optical"... However, depending on the input circuitry in the DAC, this may or may not actually matter... and the difference may or may not be audible. 4. With many products there are a variety of other differences. The result is that, on a given device, they MAY sound different, or they may not (and, if they do sound a tiny bit different, you may prefer either one). 5. Coax connections can use quite long cables but it is generally recommended to "keep them as short as possible". The length over which optical connections will work varies - a lot. Note that MOST optical cables use a PLASTIC optical fiber. There's nothing wrong with this. However, if you need a relatively long optical cable, you can buy ones with GLASS fibers... and they tend to work better over longer distances. (They only cost a few dollars more, and you have to read the fine print to even find out, but sometimes it makes a difference.) (This is NOT "an active cable".... it is simply a passive optical cable with a glass rather than plastic fiber inside.) (Optical cables with glass fibers also tend to be thinner and more flexible... but they are also easier to damage.) 6. Optical cables, and especially glass ones, can be "broken"... if you kink the cable the fiber can actually break and stop working. So try to avoid sharp bends... and DO NOT slam them in doors... and avoid walking on them.) 7. There is a lot of variation in the connectors used on optical cables and inputs... The standard is simply not very "tight"... so different brands may have significant variation... So some cables may fit very tightly in some gear... while others have a tendency to fall out if you bump them... This is just sort of an accepted issue with optical cables and the mating connectors... but it does mean that other types of connections MAY be "more consistently reliable". The Emotiva XDA-3 can handle 24/192 on both optical and coax. The 24/96 limit on optical is generally on older products. I prefer optical, when available, for the isolation. I've never heard a difference between the two types, regardless of the limits. Just use one or the other and forget about Reviewer hand wringing. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 25, 2024 11:05:42 GMT -5
I posted a really long and exhaustive reply but here's the short version... Optical connections are inherently electrically isolated - which is a benefit. However, it is widely accepted that optical connections usually have far higher jitter than Coax connections - which can be a drawback. BUT, depending on the circuitry in the device at either end, this may not necessarily be true, and may or may not make any audible difference. ( IF the source has a lot of jitter on its optical output, and IF the DAC is especially sensitive to it, then you MAY hear a difference.) So, yes, on some gear, the Coax and optical connections MIGHT sound slightly different. And that WOULD be worth noting if you are shopping for a DAC that you plan to use with a device that only has an optical output. (This falls under the heading of "synergy between different equipment".) The Wiim Pro offers you more options than the regular Wiim - although I believe both use the same software... And it also might sound slightly better for other reasons... (I haven't personally listened to either but CheapAudioMan has extensive reviews on both.) And, yes, whether that's true or not may depend on the streaming service you're using... Also note that different streaming devices have different APPS... So, with a particular streaming SERVICE, you may get different quality, or even see different options, depending on what DEVICE you stream it with... Various devices may also offer improved performance over time... after a software update... so these details may change over time... (This is one of those things where good detailed and timely reviews can provide important details.) Hi Lounge, I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection. Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful. Thanks all. This was discussed recently here : emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/61078/coax-optical |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 25, 2024 11:06:09 GMT -5
Indeed... especially the comment about "reviewer hand wringing"... (After all, they do need to find something to talk about, or there would be no point in doing a review.) The realities are this: 0. The real bottom line is that, on most equipment, all of the various inputs sound about the same... But, on some gear, the inputs may sound slightly different, and for a wide variety of reasons. 1. ALL optical inputs provide total electrical isolation (sometimes referred to as "galvanic isolation"). Galvanic isolation eliminates the possibility of various sorts of "ground noise". Some Coax or USB inputs have galvanic isolation... but it is inherent with an optical connection. 2. In the past MANY optical inputs were limited, compared to other inputs, in terms of maximum speed... with 96k being common. You will still find that, on many products, the optical outputs and inputs have different limitations than the other inputs. 3. It is a widely accepted fact that optical connections USUALLY have far higher (worse) jitter than Coax inputs. And, if you read "audiophile discussions" it is generally agreed that "Coax is better than optical"... However, depending on the input circuitry in the DAC, this may or may not actually matter... and the difference may or may not be audible. 4. With many products there are a variety of other differences. The result is that, on a given device, they MAY sound different, or they may not (and, if they do sound a tiny bit different, you may prefer either one). 5. Coax connections can use quite long cables but it is generally recommended to "keep them as short as possible". The length over which optical connections will work varies - a lot. Note that MOST optical cables use a PLASTIC optical fiber. There's nothing wrong with this. However, if you need a relatively long optical cable, you can buy ones with GLASS fibers... and they tend to work better over longer distances. (They only cost a few dollars more, and you have to read the fine print to even find out, but sometimes it makes a difference.) (This is NOT "an active cable".... it is simply a passive optical cable with a glass rather than plastic fiber inside.) (Optical cables with glass fibers also tend to be thinner and more flexible... but they are also easier to damage.) 6. Optical cables, and especially glass ones, can be "broken"... if you kink the cable the fiber can actually break and stop working. So try to avoid sharp bends... and DO NOT slam them in doors... and avoid walking on them.) 7. There is a lot of variation in the connectors used on optical cables and inputs... The standard is simply not very "tight"... so different brands may have significant variation... So some cables may fit very tightly in some gear... while others have a tendency to fall out if you bump them... This is just sort of an accepted issue with optical cables and the mating connectors... but it does mean that other types of connections MAY be "more consistently reliable". The Emotiva XDA-3 can handle 24/192 on both optical and coax. The 24/96 limit on optical is generally on older products. I prefer optical, when available, for the isolation. I've never heard a difference between the two types, regardless of the limits. Just use one or the other and forget about Reviewer hand wringing. Nice detail. If Emotiva offers optical TOSLINK cables I'm sure they work fine. I've been using 2M lengths of these for a while: benchmarkmedia.com/collections/cables/products/toslink-optical-cable-with-metal-connectors?variant=527166925There ought to be lie detector and competency tests for Reviewers... |
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 25, 2024 12:52:47 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection. Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful. Thanks all. From what you wrote, it sounds like you have no reason other than curiosity to make any changes. I would just lay low until you have a real reason to do something different. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,951
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Post by KeithL on Jan 25, 2024 12:58:44 GMT -5
Hmmm... You mean a "reviewer meta-review" ("a review of reviewers")...  |
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Post by PaulBe on Jan 25, 2024 13:07:46 GMT -5
Hmmm... You mean a "reviewer meta-review" ("a review of reviewers")... Something like that... and then a Purge, with tar and feathers. Now I am remembering a short speech from Teddy Roosevelt about critics. Confession - I don't know what many of these smile emoji's mean. I use only a few. |
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Post by brubacca on Jan 25, 2024 21:01:27 GMT -5
I have always liked coax. Through like 6 DACs. Now on my latest DAC and I prefer Optical because it balances my system better.. You really have to try both and decide because synergy is key. One will sound better in your system and your room.
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Post by Cogito on Jan 26, 2024 20:09:43 GMT -5
Hi Lounge, I recently watched a review on a dac I own, the SMSL D1se, in which the reviewer puts down the optical input. This got me thinking about how this could be, and if this is somehow unique to this piece? My understanding is that the optical connection is usually a good one, as there is no electrical connection between devices. This presumes that the connection is solid and the cables themselves are in proper working order. Coax connections are nice in that I find them to be generally stronger, that is they are less susceptible to loosening and the dreaded integrated optical cover/door that can easily break, thus loosening the connection. Part of the reason I am asking is because so much of my listening is done with a Wiim basic, that only has optical out. It is convenient and inexpensive, but I might go for the Pro version for the coax output, if anything to satisfy my curiosity. Now I am using AppleMusic so I’m not entirely sure what resolution I am getting, or if I am truly “streaming”, so if anyone wants to comment on that, it would also be helpful. Thanks all. I for max bitrate I chose Coax over Optical. Coaxial connection can support higher quality audio up to 24-bit/192kHz. Optical is usually restricted to 96kHz. Strange thing. I have my Cambridge MXN10 hooked up to my XDA-2 Gen.2 via Toslink and I am streaming at 24/192 (depending on the Tidal track) using a cheapo $9.49 cable. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 27, 2024 9:08:43 GMT -5
I think that optical connections get a bad rap from their original implementation, years ago (high jitter, etc.). These days, TOSLINK seems much more reliable, lower in jitter, and without many (most?) of the original problems.
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Post by adaboy on Jan 27, 2024 14:39:29 GMT -5
I for max bitrate I chose Coax over Optical. Coaxial connection can support higher quality audio up to 24-bit/192kHz. Optical is usually restricted to 96kHz. Strange thing. I have my Cambridge MXN10 hooked up to my XDA-2 Gen.2 via Toslink and I am streaming at 24/192 (depending on the Tidal track) using a cheapo $9.49 cable. "Usually" not "always" Glad to hear you are getting great results from your system. Keep the audio pumping my friend. |
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