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Post by Topend on Apr 17, 2010 13:21:08 GMT -5
To add, a good rule of thumb is if your main speakers feature a 6" driver or a pair of 5" drivers then you will probably have good extension down to just under 80hz without distortion issues at moderatly high volumes. A few speakers with just a single 5" midrange/midbass driver can hit this goal as well, but its not the norm. Thanks for the responses. My mains and center have four 5" bass drivers, one 5" midrange driver and a single tweeter. They have a frequency range of 30-40000hz in room resonse. I will look at getting the Rythmik 15" downward firing sub. Thanks
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 17, 2010 15:15:24 GMT -5
Downward firing vs front firing subs come in all kinds of flavors and is hard to generalize about which is best for what. Having said that, over the years of listening to both types I would say, rule of thumb would be down firing for HT and front firing for music applications. Specific subs of both type will run counter to the rule, but for my 2-channel listening I have had better integration with the front firing units. ;D
In addition, ported subs vs sealed subs, the general rule is ported for HT and sealed for music -- the same caveats from above apply to this as well.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 17, 2010 16:46:45 GMT -5
Downward firing vs front firing subs come in all kinds of flavors and is hard to generalize about which is best for what. Having said that, over the years of listening to both types I would say, rule of thumb would be down firing for HT and front firing for music applications. Specific subs of both type will run counter to the rule, but for my 2-channel listening I have had better integration with the front firing units. ;D In addition, ported subs vs sealed subs, the general rule is ported for HT and sealed for music -- the same caveats from above apply to this as well. Downfiring works just as well if not better for music, again it all depends on your mains and how low they can extend down to. If they can reach down to and below 80hz then a downfiring sub solution is best because you now dont have to worry about localization from the subs. For music this is especially important, because you dont want sounds emulating from your sub. As for ported vs. sealed, Im just not a fan of ports period. The best subs for smooth frequency response and linear detail have always been sealed models(or IB for that matter). Ports are just the poor mans way of adding extra output at the tuning point. If you need more output, best thing to do is add another identical subwoofer.
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Post by ralmaneih on Apr 19, 2010 15:12:12 GMT -5
I am very interested in the ultra 12 and was wondering if there are any forum or professional reviews on the product? Also is there a scheduled date for the two sub solution with the separate amp?
Any help would be great appreciated.
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Post by combos99 on Apr 19, 2010 21:43:30 GMT -5
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Apr 20, 2010 4:26:29 GMT -5
As for ported vs. sealed, Im just not a fan of ports period. The best subs for smooth frequency response and linear detail have always been sealed models(or IB for that matter). Ports are just the poor mans way of adding extra output at the tuning point. If you need more output, best thing to do is add another identical subwoofer. I am building my own, so I will have to see how they perform. But I learned from Hometheatershack.com that ported is the way to go if you use an enclosure that's really large. I am talking about 550 liters (20 cubic feet) for the Maelstrom 18" I bought. It's tuned to 13 Hz. It should perform reference level from 13 Hz to well over 80 Hz. It should not matter whether you use it for music or movie. Like with all speakers. Only difference is that for 99.99% of music, 30 Hz is all you need down there. Except for pipe organ or the Japanese Kodo (or what's it called) Agreed that a port is very cheap and is mostly used to disguise the fact that the enclosure was to small to begin with. I am preparing to build main speakers also, but want to see how the SW build goes before that. For these speakers, I will use aperiodic vents for the 80 liter woofer enclosure. In this case, the bass extension is reduced somewhat (but improved and flatter response) to 50 Hz, where the ported 60 liter solution would reach to 40 Hz, but I will cut of @ 60 or 80 Hz anyway for the HT set-up.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 20, 2010 8:40:02 GMT -5
As for ported vs. sealed, Im just not a fan of ports period. The best subs for smooth frequency response and linear detail have always been sealed models(or IB for that matter). Ports are just the poor mans way of adding extra output at the tuning point. If you need more output, best thing to do is add another identical subwoofer. I am building my own, so I will have to see how they perform. But I learned from Hometheatershack.com that ported is the way to go if you use an enclosure that's really large. I am talking about 550 liters (20 cubic feet) for the Maelstrom 18" I bought. It's tuned to 13 Hz. It should perform reference level from 13 Hz to well over 80 Hz. It should not matter whether you use it for music or movie. Like with all speakers. Only difference is that for 99.99% of music, 30 Hz is all you need down there. Except for pipe organ or the Japanese Kodo (or what's it called) Agreed that a port is very cheap and is mostly used to disguise the fact that the enclosure was to small to begin with. I am preparing to build main speakers also, but want to see how the SW build goes before that. For these speakers, I will use aperiodic vents for the 80 liter woofer enclosure. In this case, the bass extension is reduced somewhat (but improved and flatter response) to 50 Hz, where the ported 60 liter solution would reach to 40 Hz, but I will cut of @ 60 or 80 Hz anyway for the HT set-up. Simply put you could save yourself 4 cubic feet and do 2 Maelstrom 18"s(Or a single 21" with less space), and get more output at the same time. Tuning below the fs point is a good way to kick the cr@p out of your driver and do damage at moderate to high output levels.
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 20, 2010 9:34:43 GMT -5
I am building my own, so I will have to see how they perform. But I learned from Hometheatershack.com that ported is the way to go if you use an enclosure that's really large. I am talking about 550 liters (20 cubic feet) for the Maelstrom 18" I bought. It's tuned to 13 Hz. It should perform reference level from 13 Hz to well over 80 Hz. It should not matter whether you use it for music or movie. Like with all speakers. Only difference is that for 99.99% of music, 30 Hz is all you need down there. Except for pipe organ or the Japanese Kodo (or what's it called) Agreed that a port is very cheap and is mostly used to disguise the fact that the enclosure was to small to begin with. I am preparing to build main speakers also, but want to see how the SW build goes before that. For these speakers, I will use aperiodic vents for the 80 liter woofer enclosure. In this case, the bass extension is reduced somewhat (but improved and flatter response) to 50 Hz, where the ported 60 liter solution would reach to 40 Hz, but I will cut of @ 60 or 80 Hz anyway for the HT set-up. You seem very contradictory. In one instance you quote Hometheatershack and state that ported is the way to go for large enclosures. Then you say that ports are a cheap way to disguise the fact that the enclosure is too small. Which is it?? Here's a sub, ported by design in a relatively large enclosure.... W - 26.00", H - 49.5", D - 27.25" (2) 18 inch drivers, total weight 395lbs FR=16-100Hz +/-3dB @110db In Room I decided to show their new wood finish. And this puppy ain't cheap!!!
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 20, 2010 10:17:39 GMT -5
I am building my own, so I will have to see how they perform. But I learned from Hometheatershack.com that ported is the way to go if you use an enclosure that's really large. I am talking about 550 liters (20 cubic feet) for the Maelstrom 18" I bought. It's tuned to 13 Hz. It should perform reference level from 13 Hz to well over 80 Hz. It should not matter whether you use it for music or movie. Like with all speakers. Only difference is that for 99.99% of music, 30 Hz is all you need down there. Except for pipe organ or the Japanese Kodo (or what's it called) Agreed that a port is very cheap and is mostly used to disguise the fact that the enclosure was to small to begin with. I am preparing to build main speakers also, but want to see how the SW build goes before that. For these speakers, I will use aperiodic vents for the 80 liter woofer enclosure. In this case, the bass extension is reduced somewhat (but improved and flatter response) to 50 Hz, where the ported 60 liter solution would reach to 40 Hz, but I will cut of @ 60 or 80 Hz anyway for the HT set-up. You seem very contradictory. In one instance you quote Hometheatershack and state that ported is the way to go for large enclosures. Then you say that ports are a cheap way to disguise the fact that the enclosure is too small. Which is it?? Here's a sub, ported by design in a relatively large enclosure.... W - 26.00", H - 49.5", D - 27.25" (2) 18 inch drivers, total weight 395lbs FR=16-100Hz +/-3dB @110db In Room I decided to show their new wood finish. And this puppy ain't cheap!!! If it aint cheap they should be using real wood veneer instead of vinyl laminate, LOL! Exactly what does 2 18" drivers and an LT1300(900)plate amp set you back?
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moookie1051
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Post by moookie1051 on Apr 20, 2010 10:54:48 GMT -5
You seem very contradictory. In one instance you quote Hometheatershack and state that ported is the way to go for large enclosures. Then you say that ports are a cheap way to disguise the fact that the enclosure is too small. Which is it?? Here's a sub, ported by design in a relatively large enclosure.... W - 26.00", H - 49.5", D - 27.25" (2) 18 inch drivers, total weight 395lbs FR=16-100Hz +/-3dB @110db In Room I decided to show their new wood finish. And this puppy ain't cheap!!! If it aint cheap they should be using real wood veneer instead of vinyl laminate, LOL! Exactly what does 2 18" drivers and an LT1300(900)plate amp set you back? $2500 + $450(Walnut,Cherry, or Maple) or + $650(Bamboo)
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 20, 2010 12:36:00 GMT -5
$3000? I'll pass, thats a RIPOFF compared to their other products, I mean for $1600 you can get 2 A7S-450's with 2 900 watt plate amps instead of one, eD's price structure is poor, Ive always thought that, it seems with them that the more you spend, in reality the LESS you get..........but at LEAST your getting twin 18" drivers in this setup for HT...........better bargain than those single driver, small box high wattage sub assemblies the the JL f series and other similiar subs....................regardless, Id save a few grand though, buy the 18" drivers and amp seperately and DIY. With the amount of money saved you could literally buy yourself a nice lil woodworking shop for many more DIY projects.
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Post by rygher3 on Apr 20, 2010 13:14:52 GMT -5
$3000? I'll pass, thats a RIPOFF compared to their other products, I mean for $1600 you can get 2 A7S-450's with 2 900 watt plate amps instead of one, eD's price structure is poor, Ive always thought that, it seems with them that the more you spend, in reality the LESS you get..........but at LEAST your getting twin 18" drivers in this setup for HT...........better bargain than those single driver, small box high wattage sub assemblies the the JL f series and other similiar subs....................regardless, Id save a few grand though, buy the 18" drivers and amp seperately and DIY. With the amount of money saved you could literally buy yourself a nice lil woodworking shop for many more DIY projects. Totally have to agree about their price structure. I got them to do some custom subs when they were trying to clear out the 16Ov.2 D4s. They put together 2 cabinets with dual woofers along with a EP2500 and the total was around 1300. Better yet when I asked them how it would compare against the A7-900, they stated very comparable. They still do make quality products though, and it would be interesting to hear how their small sealed subs compare with the Ultras....better yet just a review of the Ultras would be amazing!
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 20, 2010 13:27:29 GMT -5
$3000? I'll pass, thats a RIPOFF compared to their other products, I mean for $1600 you can get 2 A7S-450's with 2 900 watt plate amps instead of one, eD's price structure is poor, Ive always thought that, it seems with them that the more you spend, in reality the LESS you get..........but at LEAST your getting twin 18" drivers in this setup for HT...........better bargain than those single driver, small box high wattage sub assemblies the the JL f series and other similiar subs....................regardless, Id save a few grand though, buy the 18" drivers and amp seperately and DIY. With the amount of money saved you could literally buy yourself a nice lil woodworking shop for many more DIY projects. After building the A7s-650 kit, for roughly half of retail, DIY is the only way I would go. The A7-900 however, is a labor intensive build. There is a massive amount of internal bracing, and a lot of material being used. That is where half of the money would go...into labor and paint. The A7s-450, happens to come with the same LT/1300 as my sub, so a pair of 450's would have 2600 watts between them..
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 20, 2010 14:04:14 GMT -5
$3000? I'll pass, thats a RIPOFF compared to their other products, I mean for $1600 you can get 2 A7S-450's with 2 900 watt plate amps instead of one, eD's price structure is poor, Ive always thought that, it seems with them that the more you spend, in reality the LESS you get..........but at LEAST your getting twin 18" drivers in this setup for HT...........better bargain than those single driver, small box high wattage sub assemblies the the JL f series and other similiar subs....................regardless, Id save a few grand though, buy the 18" drivers and amp seperately and DIY. With the amount of money saved you could literally buy yourself a nice lil woodworking shop for many more DIY projects. After building the A7s-650 kit, for roughly half of retail, DIY is the only way I would go. The A7-900 however, is a labor intensive build. There is a massive amount of internal bracing, and a lot of material being used. That is where half of the money would go...into labor and paint. The A7s-450, happens to come with the same LT/1300 as my sub, so a pair of 450's would have 2600 watts between them.. Actually there is no more material in the 900 kit than there is in a pair of 450's. And their "earth friendly" MDF material is dirt cheap. All their cuts are done by computer controlled machine. Final assembly is done by hand, but again, there isnt much too any of those subs, your talking an hour or so in reality of labor per sub unit. And even if there was a bit more organic MDF material used in the 900........do you realize a full sheet at their cost is only a fraction of the price of an additional 900 watt plate amp? Again, their price structuring is kind of absurd........... And a quick bit of info, those arent 1300 watt amps(that rating is with distortion well over 1%. They are true 900 watt plate amps(rated at .1% distortion). But numbers sell...............
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Post by Animo on Apr 20, 2010 17:33:02 GMT -5
Actually there is no more material in the 900 kit than there is in a pair of 450's. And their "earth friendly" MDF material is dirt cheap. All their cuts are done by computer controlled machine. Final assembly is done by hand, but again, there isnt much too any of those subs, your talking an hour or so in reality of labor per sub unit. And even if there was a bit more organic MDF material used in the 900........do you realize a full sheet at their cost is only a fraction of the price of an additional 900 watt plate amp? Again, their price structuring is kind of absurd........... And a quick bit of info, those arent 1300 watt amps(that rating is with distortion well over 1%. They are true 900 watt plate amps(rated at .1% distortion). But numbers sell............... Truth is there is more material in the 900. One inch thick cabinets and baffles, and 2 inch bracing, twice what's in the 450. Their EFS is environmentally friendly, has no harmful additives like formaldehyde, which is in MDF, and the EFS costs roughly twice per sheet what MDF costs. Also, the EFS will hold up to moisture better than MDF, not that there should be moisture problems, but it just happens to be a fact. As far as the amps are concerned, anybody can go to the Keiga or Madisound pages and get the generic product information. The eD amps are made in conjunction with Keiga, and are then modified in house to eD's specs. None of their amps will pass QC if they don't put out the rated power.
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Post by Animo on Apr 20, 2010 17:38:10 GMT -5
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 20, 2010 17:56:42 GMT -5
Actually there is no more material in the 900 kit than there is in a pair of 450's. And their "earth friendly" MDF material is dirt cheap. All their cuts are done by computer controlled machine. Final assembly is done by hand, but again, there isnt much too any of those subs, your talking an hour or so in reality of labor per sub unit. And even if there was a bit more organic MDF material used in the 900........do you realize a full sheet at their cost is only a fraction of the price of an additional 900 watt plate amp? Again, their price structuring is kind of absurd........... And a quick bit of info, those arent 1300 watt amps(that rating is with distortion well over 1%. They are true 900 watt plate amps(rated at .1% distortion). But numbers sell............... Truth is there is more material in the 900. One inch thick cabinets and baffles, and 2 inch bracing, twice what's in the 450. Their EFS is environmentally friendly, has no harmful additives like formaldehyde, which is in MDF, and the EFS costs roughly twice per sheet what MDF costs. Also, the EFS will hold up to moisture better than MDF, not that there should be moisture problems, but it just happens to be a fact. As far as the amps are concerned, anybody can go to the Keiga or Madisound pages and get the generic product information. The eD amps are made in conjunction with Keiga, and are then modified in house to eD's specs. None of their amps will pass QC if they don't perform to rated specs. With an enclosure twice the size, it probably does have thicker bracing and sides, but its needed too. The Single A7's have literally 6 solid sides...........PER driver. So I don't think adverse resonation is an issue with either of the models. Regardless even if EFS is twice the amount of MDF, at wholesale cost that would put it around $20-40 per 4x8' sheet tops depending on thickness. You can get 1" thick MDF wholesale bulk skids for about $15-20 per sheet. 3/4" for about $10-15. And regardless of how eD modifies their amps in house, out of their own mouths when I enquired last Xmas about the distortion number at their rated 1300watts @4ohms, they stated between 1-10%(I was actually generous by stating the low % number).............which is pretty much inline with a true 900 watts with .1% distortion. Be nice if they display more detailed specs on their in house "ratings" under the specifications tab.............regardless the difference between clean output at 900 watts and distorted output at 1300 watts is only about 1.5 db............so in reality, not a big deal, but I wanted to mention what the true clean RMS output really is. Because alot of sub mfg's INFLATE their numbers to help sell products, and 1300watts sounds more enticing to many vs. 900watts.
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 20, 2010 18:37:23 GMT -5
I totally agree that many manufacturers may indeed inflate their numbers. This isn't something confined to the electronics industry either. And again, 1.5db is not much to squabble over.
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Post by rick240 on Apr 20, 2010 21:40:44 GMT -5
I too would love to see a review of the Ultras. +1 and an ETA on the Ultra10
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Post by ralmaneih on Apr 22, 2010 9:07:41 GMT -5
Well, I have decided to go into another direction with my sub selection. I am going to get the Rythmik F15. It is sad because this is the second time, I have wanted to buy an Emotiva product, but because of timing, have not. First the UMC-1, which I understand happens, and now the Subs.
I would like to suggest one idea to the masters at Emotiva, you may get more traction right up front when you introduce a product, if you guys who comment/manage the forum get together and provide some type of review yourself during the introductory period. For me if Lonnie would have talked about the Ultra 12 sub, said how he liked it and provided some feedback on it compared to other subs, I would have bought two. But then again maybe that is not worth his time. Not sure. Just my .02.
Regardless, I will eventually get one of the amps, just not sure which one.
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