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Post by CrazyBlue on Apr 22, 2010 12:07:15 GMT -5
I would like to suggest one idea to the masters at Emotiva, you may get more traction right up front when you introduce a product, if you guys who comment/manage the forum get together and provide some type of review yourself during the introductory period. For me if Lonnie would have talked about the Ultra 12 sub, said how he liked it and provided some feedback on it compared to other subs, I would have bought two. +1 I sent Lonnie an e-mail asking for some personal impressions/feedback. I've been looking at used, bigger subs. But I want two and whatever I get will go for a second one next February. I want a sealed music sub that will go low enough for movies. But my budget is constrained at the moment. Anyone have an F-12 they want to sell? Epik Vanquish or Valor? ;D A guy posted a graph of the Ultra 12 in his room, but with less than optimal placement. Still, it gives some idea of what to expect. Just not sure if it'll be enough. C'mon you guys who bought U-12's! Where's the feedback?
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Post by alphaiii on Apr 22, 2010 18:17:23 GMT -5
There is an Epik Valor for sale @ Audiogon.
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Post by CrazyBlue on Apr 23, 2010 2:01:31 GMT -5
There is an Epik Valor for sale @ Audiogon. Yeah. I made an offer, declined his counter offer. Great as the few reviews of that sub I've been able to find are, I'm not sure I want to spend $500 on a 2 or 3 year-old sub with no warranty, no idea of how hard it's been pushed (the seller won't answer any of my e-mails). Communication is a beautiful thing. He does have excellent feedback though. I called Epik and spoke to Chad for about 20 minutes. Great guy, very helpful, answered all of my questions about the Valor. But I can now get a U-12 for the same money, shipped to my door, with Emo's awesome 5-year warranty (I assume it has the same warranty as the rest of their gear) and can send it back if I don't like it. That's kind of a no-brainer, I suppose. But I've gotten caught up in all the sub-20hz-@-100db-for-movies talk, lol. My main concern is music. We watch maybe 1 movie/month where a really low playing sub will make a big difference (action movies). So I have to decide whether an extra 3-4 hz extension (I'm sure either will have plenty of output for my tastes) is more important than the comfort and security of a new, warrantied sub from a company I already know makes awesome amps, which I own. Or I could go eD A5s-300 or Hsu VTF-2 Mk3 for around the same money (within $50). Or I can go hang myself before this becomes an incurable disease (too late, I think) that eats my brain and swallows all my money. ;D Decisions, decisions. I hate being on a budget.
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 23, 2010 3:00:52 GMT -5
SR71
With music being your key reason for purchasing a sub woofer, I think you would be extremely happy going with the Emotiva Ultra 12. I spent hours listening to the pre-production Ultra 10 over two days at last year's Emofest celebration. That was a very good sounding musical sub woofer that had a very tight bass response. The Ultra 10 was also used in the theater room and shocked most of us when Big Dan told us that the sub used during playback of the BD movie of IRONMAN. The little 10 incher filled the whole room with excellent, realistic sound effects you could feel kicking you in the chest when a bomg exploded -- WOW aptly describes the reactions of the viewers when Dan revealed we were listening to only a 10 inch sub.
Pull the trigger and start enjoying your new sub. You are going to be pleasantly surprised. ;D
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 23, 2010 8:38:12 GMT -5
If about $500 is the budget there is one very good option that seems to be overlooked......the eD A5s-300. True 500watt rms plate amp, very heavy and very well braced enclosure, and a very high quality 12" driver that is relatively efficient and will play down under 20hz without a sweat. I don't know if I'd take an Ultra 12 over it.......................
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Post by alphaiii on Apr 23, 2010 9:33:51 GMT -5
If about $500 is the budget there is one very good option that seems to be overlooked......the eD A5s-300. True 500watt rms plate amp, very heavy and very well braced enclosure, and a very high quality 12" driver that is relatively efficient and will play down under 20hz without a sweat. I don't know if I'd take an Ultra 12 over it....................... I've noticed a few posts lately across different forums with folks complaining about eD amp failures... so that's something to think about. Also, eD's sealed subs do not have any "built in" EQ in the amps. They were designed this way to allow users to custom tailor the in-room response with the eQ.2 or other (more advanced) EQ solutions. This of course adds expense, and needs to be factored in.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 23, 2010 12:28:14 GMT -5
If about $500 is the budget there is one very good option that seems to be overlooked......the eD A5s-300. True 500watt rms plate amp, very heavy and very well braced enclosure, and a very high quality 12" driver that is relatively efficient and will play down under 20hz without a sweat. I don't know if I'd take an Ultra 12 over it....................... I've noticed a few posts lately across different forums with folks complaining about eD amp failures... so that's something to think about. Also, eD's sealed subs do not have any "built in" EQ in the amps. They were designed this way to allow users to custom tailor the in-room response with the eQ.2 or other (more advanced) EQ solutions. This of course adds expense, and needs to be factored in. Most decent AVR's or HT processors will have a built in Sub channel EQ already. ANd last I knew, not many(if any in fact as I can think of one off the top of my head) quality subs at the $500 range have some type of EQ function built in(Including the Ultra 12). ED plate amps(Keiga) are actually pretty darn reliable overall. If one were to get a defective plate amp, I know ED is very good about shipping out a new one on their dime in a timely fashion.
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RadTech
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Post by RadTech on Apr 23, 2010 12:39:36 GMT -5
I 2nd the eD A5s-300 partially because I own two and, for $500 you can not go wrong. As many of you know or don't, I'm pretty tough on gear and, you can believe me when I say these subs hit hard. My subs have been great especially, after the beating I put them through on a daily basis.
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Post by CrazyBlue on Apr 23, 2010 12:52:45 GMT -5
SR71 With music being your key reason for purchasing a sub woofer, I think you would be extremely happy going with the Emotiva Ultra 12. I spent hours listening to the pre-production Ultra 10 over two days at last year's Emofest celebration. That was a very good sounding musical sub woofer that had a very tight bass response. The Ultra 10 was also used in the theater room and shocked most of us when Big Dan told us that the sub used during playback of the BD movie of IRONMAN. The little 10 incher filled the whole room with excellent, realistic sound effects you could feel kicking you in the chest when a bomg exploded -- WOW aptly describes the reactions of the viewers when Dan revealed we were listening to only a 10 inch sub. Pull the trigger and start enjoying your new sub. You are going to be pleasantly surprised. ;D So, you didn't feel the Ultra 10 was lacking for movies? Just curious, because my original plan was to get one U-10 now and another in a few months. Do you think it would be close to the 12 for music at high volumes? How big was the room you heard it in? ntrain, I listed the a5s-300 and the VTF-2 MK3 as additional possibilities. But I use an Emo MMC-1 for my preamp and it has pretty basic bass management capabilities, so I'd probably have to EQ the eD externally. I plan to get some kind of sub EQ when I add the second sub, but that won't help me right now.
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 23, 2010 13:26:43 GMT -5
eD is a very reputable company and their Customer Service is as good as any ID company out there. Expect a no hassle solution to any problem you may find. One other thing to consider is shipping cost is included for all their subwoofers.
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Post by alphaiii on Apr 23, 2010 14:01:42 GMT -5
I've noticed a few posts lately across different forums with folks complaining about eD amp failures... so that's something to think about. Also, eD's sealed subs do not have any "built in" EQ in the amps. They were designed this way to allow users to custom tailor the in-room response with the eQ.2 or other (more advanced) EQ solutions. This of course adds expense, and needs to be factored in. Most decent AVR's or HT processors will have a built in Sub channel EQ already. ANd last I knew, not many(if any in fact as I can think of one off the top of my head) quality subs at the $500 range have some type of EQ function built in(Including the Ultra 12). ED plate amps(Keiga) are actually pretty darn reliable overall. If one were to get a defective plate amp, I know ED is very good about shipping out a new one on their dime in a timely fashion. When I mention built in EQ, I'm not referring to an adjustable parametric EQ feature on the amp... I'm referring to a fixed boost at a certain frequency (usually somewhere around 25-30Hz) that is used to extend the woofers response in a sealed enclosure. If you model any driver (any that I've tried at least) in a sealed enclosure you'll see that the roll-off often begins as high as 40-50Hz...so boost (EQ) is added at the low end to extend the low end. I would think even the Emo Ultra subs have this built into their amps. My understanding from talking with eD (Alex and Ben) is that NO EQ (boost) is built into their amps...but I may have misunderstood them. Or perhaps they misunderstood my question, and their answers meant there was no parametric EQ feature on the amp...which is certainly not expected in that price range.
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Post by alphaiii on Apr 23, 2010 14:09:55 GMT -5
OK, here is my question posted in the eD owner's thread at AVS, followed by Alex's response. I don't believe I still have the email from Ben with his answer. "Can someone clear something up for me...
The A3S-250 and A5S-300 have specs stating -3dB at 25Hz and 19Hz, respectively.
Are these specs in-room or anechoic?....with or without EQ.2?
I ask because in any modeling I've done in WinISD of 10" and 12" drivers in sealed boxes, they certainly don't model with that kind of low end extension without adding EQ. And I'm not talking about low quality drivers here either.
And I seem to recall Alex from eD stating that the amps for the sealed subs don't have added EQ in order to allow use of the EQ.2 (or other EQ) to tailor the in-room response better.
So basically, if you plopped the 10" or 12" sealed sub into a room without any EQ, am I right to assume you will NOT get extension to 25Hz or 19Hz?" - alphaiii"The specifications on those models are with equalization. Without equalization and in room you should see around 22-25hz extension. The extension point is largely based on your room and placement." - alexlindemanwww.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18431791&postcount=9654In looking at the Keiga amps at Meniscus Audio, they do have a 4-5dB boost built in at 25Hz. Maybe the eD amps do have some sort of boost as well.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 23, 2010 14:23:24 GMT -5
SR71 With music being your key reason for purchasing a sub woofer, I think you would be extremely happy going with the Emotiva Ultra 12. I spent hours listening to the pre-production Ultra 10 over two days at last year's Emofest celebration. That was a very good sounding musical sub woofer that had a very tight bass response. The Ultra 10 was also used in the theater room and shocked most of us when Big Dan told us that the sub used during playback of the BD movie of IRONMAN. The little 10 incher filled the whole room with excellent, realistic sound effects you could feel kicking you in the chest when a bomg exploded -- WOW aptly describes the reactions of the viewers when Dan revealed we were listening to only a 10 inch sub. Pull the trigger and start enjoying your new sub. You are going to be pleasantly surprised. ;D So, you didn't feel the Ultra 10 was lacking for movies? Just curious, because my original plan was to get one U-10 now and another in a few months. Do you think it would be close to the 12 for music at high volumes? How big was the room you heard it in? ntrain, I listed the a5s-300 and the VTF-2 MK3 as additional possibilities. But I use an Emo MMC-1 for my preamp and it has pretty basic bass management capabilities, so I'd probably have to EQ the eD externally. I plan to get some kind of sub EQ when I add the second sub, but that won't help me right now. Sell off the MMC-1(not familiar with its abilities) for a UMC-1.......problem solved on the BASS EQ dept. You will probably break even in reality with some upgrades in the process, vs just buying a decent external bass management EQ system.........
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 23, 2010 14:32:31 GMT -5
Most decent AVR's or HT processors will have a built in Sub channel EQ already. ANd last I knew, not many(if any in fact as I can think of one off the top of my head) quality subs at the $500 range have some type of EQ function built in(Including the Ultra 12). ED plate amps(Keiga) are actually pretty darn reliable overall. If one were to get a defective plate amp, I know ED is very good about shipping out a new one on their dime in a timely fashion. When I mention built in EQ, I'm not referring to an adjustable parametric EQ feature on the amp... I'm referring to a fixed boost at a certain frequency (usually somewhere around 25-30Hz) that is used to extend the woofers response in a sealed enclosure. If you model any driver (any that I've tried at least) in a sealed enclosure you'll see that the roll-off often begins as high as 40-50Hz...so boost (EQ) is added at the low end to extend the low end. I would think even the Emo Ultra subs have this built into their amps. My understanding from talking with eD (Alex and Ben) is that NO EQ (boost) is built into their amps...but I may have misunderstood them. Or perhaps they misunderstood my question, and their answers meant there was no parametric EQ feature on the amp...which is certainly not expected in that price range. Yes, your right, sealed units will naturally roll off at their tuning point(in this case sealed volume), but room size/gain will also boost the low end up as well. Yes, there are a number of subs(Like my older KefPSW2500's) that have some type of low fz boost(Like a music/movie switch/bass boost etc as you mentioned). But many times this just overdrives the amp and driver at even moderate (remember just a 3db boost requires double the power)gain levels. Your better off to set the xover lowpass lower to help naturally smooth out the overall frequency response, because Im not a fan of these boost toggles at all. If with room gain/placement and the subs own natural output ability you cannot get the low frequency extension needed, then you need to add another subwoofer, or get one with a much bigger cone. Bass and low frequency extension is all about cone space and excursion.
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Post by alphaiii on Apr 23, 2010 14:47:50 GMT -5
Yes, your right, sealed units will naturally roll off at their tuning point(in this case sealed volume), but room size/gain will also boost the low end up as well. Yes, there are a number of subs(Like my older KefPSW2500's) that have some type of low fz boost(Like a music/movie switch/bass boost etc as you mentioned). But many times this just overdrives the amp and driver at even moderate (remember just a 3db boost requires double the power)gain levels. Your better off to set the xover lowpass lower to help naturally smooth out the overall frequency response, because Im not a fan of these boost toggles at all. If with room gain/placement and the subs own natural output ability you cannot get the low frequency extension needed, then you need to add another subwoofer, or get one with a much bigger cone. Bass and low frequency extension is all about cone space and excursion. In some cases, it isn't an option to set the lowpass xover lower b/c the mains can't play low enough. I don't mean a boost switch, but a boost that is built into the amp's preamp board (adjustable by changing resistor values in the pre-amp board) - although I imagine it essentially serves the same purpose. But you're right...a 4-5dB boost at 25Hz is going to demand alot of the amp. It'd be nice if manufacturers would provide ground plane measurements of their sealed subs to see how they perform without room gain.... as an rough idea of what type of performance to expect in room (although this can vary widely). The only one I can think of off the top of my head that has done so is Seaton with his Submersive.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Apr 23, 2010 15:38:19 GMT -5
Yes, your right, sealed units will naturally roll off at their tuning point(in this case sealed volume), but room size/gain will also boost the low end up as well. Yes, there are a number of subs(Like my older KefPSW2500's) that have some type of low fz boost(Like a music/movie switch/bass boost etc as you mentioned). But many times this just overdrives the amp and driver at even moderate (remember just a 3db boost requires double the power)gain levels. Your better off to set the xover lowpass lower to help naturally smooth out the overall frequency response, because Im not a fan of these boost toggles at all. If with room gain/placement and the subs own natural output ability you cannot get the low frequency extension needed, then you need to add another subwoofer, or get one with a much bigger cone. Bass and low frequency extension is all about cone space and excursion. In some cases, it isn't an option to set the lowpass xover lower b/c the mains can't play low enough. I don't mean a boost switch, but a boost that is built into the amp's preamp board (adjustable by changing resistor values in the pre-amp board) - although I imagine it essentially serves the same purpose. But you're right...a 4-5dB boost at 25Hz is going to demand alot of the amp. It'd be nice if manufacturers would provide ground plane measurements of their sealed subs to see how they perform without room gain.... as an rough idea of what type of performance to expect in room (although this can vary widely). The only one I can think of off the top of my head that has done so is Seaton with his Submersive. Honestly, ive been in the industry so long, I can honestly give you a good round number of how a sub will respond in your room, or what size sub you need for a given amount of space. A generic rule of thumb I use for good solid undistorted bass with low frequency extension is to have a sub(or subs)that equal in sd to a single 18" driver per 1800sq roughly.
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Post by tbro49 on Apr 23, 2010 17:06:12 GMT -5
I have an Ultra 12 and have been very happy with it. It replaced an old 6" Polk with a "50 watt" amp, so I can't give a comparison to a comparable quality sub, but I can say that on the first battle scene in "Master and Commander" it literally shook the walls and my couch with plenty of gain left on my XPA-2 and LPA-1 amps. I watched the Avatar blu-ray last night and it did the same thing; even had to tone it down a bit to satisfy WAF. On music, it has also been impressive. Bass on Beatles' Love DVD-A is very good. Much more low end than before and very articulate. Sheffield Drum Tracks are fantastic and clarity and punch of Dean Peer (all bass guitar) are outstanding. On both movies and music, it picks up the very low tones that just weren't there before. My room is 23 x 23 x 9 with one-half of the end opposite the sub open to another room. Based on what I have heard elsewhere, including Emofest and Axpona, the Ultra 12 appears to have plenty of volume for this size room. I am new to a real quality sub as I said, so I have not learned how to tune it in optimally yet, but I haven't felt a strong need to do so yet. I assume the performance can be improved with some experimentation with placement (currently in corner behind display). I hope this helps those who, like me, want a high quality sub in the $500 or below price range. I don't think many of those on this forum would be disappointed in the performance/price combination of this sub even if there are others out there that might equal of better it. It's not worth the effort to find out to me given my experience with Emo products.
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 23, 2010 18:51:09 GMT -5
SR71 With music being your key reason for purchasing a sub woofer, I think you would be extremely happy going with the Emotiva Ultra 12. I spent hours listening to the pre-production Ultra 10 over two days at last year's Emofest celebration. That was a very good sounding musical sub woofer that had a very tight bass response. The Ultra 10 was also used in the theater room and shocked most of us when Big Dan told us that the sub used during playback of the BD movie of IRONMAN. The little 10 incher filled the whole room with excellent, realistic sound effects you could feel kicking you in the chest when a bomb exploded -- WOW aptly describes the reactions of the viewers when Dan revealed we were listening to only a 10 inch sub. Pull the trigger and start enjoying your new sub. You are going to be pleasantly surprised. ;D So, you didn't feel the Ultra 10 was lacking for movies? Just curious, because my original plan was to get one U-10 now and another in a few months. Do you think it would be close to the 12 for music at high volumes? How big was the room you heard it in? ntrain, I listed the a5s-300 and the VTF-2 MK3 as additional possibilities. But I use an Emo MMC-1 for my preamp and it has pretty basic bass management capabilities, so I'd probably have to EQ the eD externally. I plan to get some kind of sub EQ when I add the second sub, but that won't help me right now. SR71 I truthfully must say that I did not think the Ultra 10 was lacking when listening to IRONMAN or when listening to CDs in the analog audio room. I was very surprised on how good they sounded. I have never heard the Ultra 12 subs so I cannot compare the two to each other. If you are planning of getting 2 of which ever one your decide on, I think the Ultra 10 would handle most residential sized rooms very well. I think the major difference between the 10 and 12 would be the SPL available. I guess you would have to think about how loud you will be playing your movies to determine whether the 10 would give you the output your looking for. The Movie Room at Emotiva's headquarters is medium sized. I am not sure about the dimensions, but my best guess is about 14 by 24. They had 2 ERT-8.3s, an ERM-6.3 and 4 ERD-1s powered by XPA-1s and XPA-2s. If I remember what Dan said, they had 5000 Watts of power amps driving the speakers in that room. The ERT-8.3 has pretty good bass all by itself. All I can tell you is that with the big Emotiva speakers and the Ultra 10 sub woofer I didn't hear a single person say anything negative about the sound of any of the speakers in the Movie Room. Giving you a simply yes or no is not possible. There are too many other variable that must be evaluated before you can answer that question. How big is your room? What are you viewing/listening habits? What type of movies/music do you like? Do you like to hear special effectives at realistic sound levels and do you like to be overwhelmed by them? What are the acoustical properties of your listening room? What are your other speakers' output levels like? Etc, Etc. I guess, if I had to make a simplistic response, I would say if you like to play your movies VERY loud and you have a medium sized room (or larger) get the Ultra 12. For most people, with normal sized rooms, I think they would be happy with the Ultra 10. If I were in your shoes, I would order an Ultra 10, live with it for 30-days and make a decision at that point as to whether it will do the job for your tastes. If not, Emotiva will allow you to return the 10 and get the 12 for just the cost difference. You will then know, first hand, that you have the best solution -- one way or the other. Choosing speakers is always such a subjective task no one else can choose the speakers for you. ;D
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Apr 23, 2010 20:20:41 GMT -5
OK, here is my question posted in the eD owner's thread at AVS, followed by Alex's response. I don't believe I still have the email from Ben with his answer. "Can someone clear something up for me...
The A3S-250 and A5S-300 have specs stating -3dB at 25Hz and 19Hz, respectively.
Are these specs in-room or anechoic?....with or without EQ.2?
I ask because in any modeling I've done in WinISD of 10" and 12" drivers in sealed boxes, they certainly don't model with that kind of low end extension without adding EQ. And I'm not talking about low quality drivers here either.
And I seem to recall Alex from eD stating that the amps for the sealed subs don't have added EQ in order to allow use of the EQ.2 (or other EQ) to tailor the in-room response better.
So basically, if you plopped the 10" or 12" sealed sub into a room without any EQ, am I right to assume you will NOT get extension to 25Hz or 19Hz?" - alphaiii"The specifications on those models are with equalization. Without equalization and in room you should see around 22-25hz extension. The extension point is largely based on your room and placement." - alexlindemanwww.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18431791&postcount=9654In looking at the Keiga amps at Meniscus Audio, they do have a 4-5dB boost built in at 25Hz. Maybe the eD amps do have some sort of boost as well. The amps sold by eD are Keiga amps, specifically modified for eD. I know for a fact that my LT/1300 does indeed have a 25Hz boost toggle. I never use it.
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Post by CrazyBlue on Apr 24, 2010 4:15:29 GMT -5
SR71 I truthfully must say that I did not think the Ultra 10 was lacking when listening to IRONMAN or when listening to CDs in the analog audio room. I was very surprised on how good they sounded. I have never heard the Ultra 12 subs so I cannot compare the two to each other. If you are planning of getting 2 of which ever one your decide on, I think the Ultra 10 would handle most residential sized rooms very well. I think the major difference between the 10 and 12 would be the SPL available. I guess you would have to think about how loud you will be playing your movies to determine whether the 10 would give you the output your looking for. ;D I know this is all subjective. But real world impressions help a lot when added to specs on a screen and I appreciate you sharing yours. My room is 13'x16'x8.25', with two permanent openings on the left (16') wall and the right-rear corner open to the stairwell. 1,716 cu ft. Seating is 12' from the front mains and I can put the sub in the right front corner, next to either one of the speakers, or maybe nearfield at the right end of the sofa, though that might prove to be a toe-breaker and hard on the sub when certain beer-to-blood ratios have been exceeded. Going by ntrain's rule of thumb, two 10's would be a bit over minimum requirements, for what it's worth. Music remains my primary concern. It will, at times, be played much louder than movies get watched. But one reason I really want a sub as my next component is that it will fill in the bass at lower volumes as well. My T-45's have surprisingly good bass response for their size, but there is a volume threshold below which the lower end falls off fast. The bass they have is very fast and tight, better, to my ears, than my buddy's T-65's. They have more, of course, but it's "boomier", for lack of a better word. My main goal is to fill in what the PSB's lack, down to an honest 25hz of fast, articulate bass. After that, if it's rolling off, I don't mind. One LFE effects (if that) movie a month doesn't warrant spending more on a sub that will belt out 15hz at 110db. I don't need it. Movies aren't really my thing. Music is. But I'm no purist either. I like multichannel music in all but the smallest of rooms. Maybe even then. I'm not sure there is such a thing as "too many speakers." ;D I want to thank everyone for their input and shared experience. I appreciate it. I'm familiar with audio basics, but this is my first foray into surround and subwoofers and my first decent setup in years. Got a lot of catching up to do.
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