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Post by atczero on Mar 9, 2010 20:38:35 GMT -5
I have my PS3 (older 80Gb) hooked up via HDMI and set to multichannel PCM output to the UMC-1. All is working correctly, I believe.
What mode option do I have besides DIRECT to keep 5.1 or 7.1? I DO NOT want to bypass all of the settings in EMO-Q and bass management that I spent so long on tweaking.
The only work-around I can think of is to get a different player that will bit-stream the higher codecs and the UMC-1 can be set on the correct mode for DTSMA, DD+, etc. But I guess that would still leave Uncompressed 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks out in the cold.
I have always liked using DIRECT modes with my previous Denon receivers, because I could run 2 channel with a little help from the sub if needed. The implementation of DIRECT w/no bass management on the UMC-1 confuses me.
I appreciate your help.
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 21:48:03 GMT -5
Before the firmware update, the UMC had multi-channel stereo. When used in this mode the UMC could apply post-processing to multi-ch PCM encoded material. It worked great. However, due to "popular demand", multi-ch stereo was replaced with 2-ch stereo only with the firmware update. After that happened, the only options really are Direct, PLIIx, and I believe the DSP modes. I've tried all of these and would prefer to have a multi-ch PCM, or the old multi-ch stereo option along with 2-channel stereo. Or better yet, why not all of these? I posted my concerns on this on the UMC-1 Tracker Form, and I'm hoping that it will be addressed. We'll see what Dan has on the "current" issues list that is supposed to be posted in a few days. In any case, my two ways around this - which I just happened to do last night  - is I have my Oppo BDP-80 connected via the multi-ch analog inputs (previously I only had FL/FR/Sub connected). For multi-ch PCM blu-rays, I can just switch the UMC audio settings for the relative input from HDMI to EXT 7.1 CH, and the Oppo takes care of the bass management from there. The other option, I also have the BDP-80 connected via component, and have configured an additional input on the UMC to use Component and EXT 7.1 CH analog. Note that the UMC will let you set EXT 7.1 CH analog on at least two inputs as this is how I have it. It's just a simple input switch from there if I choose. Of course these options will require that you have a player that supports multi-ch analog out and decodes the latest codecs if you want HD audio. |
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Post by atczero on Mar 9, 2010 22:32:40 GMT -5
red5...thanks, I posted to the tracker form and saw where you had too. I'm sure this is a big deal to many and will hopefully be dealt with in firmware releases. Sounds like bringing back the multi-channel stereo functionality would take care of everything. I would want the 2 channel DIRECT as it is now to remain though. Thanks again.
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Post by mysterymachine on Mar 16, 2010 11:47:50 GMT -5
I'm confused by this... so if a blu-ray is encoded with lossless multi-channel PCM and you play on the UMC you have to be in direct mode which will not apply any of the bass management??
The problem with many earlier HDMI devises is they didn't have the horsepower to apply bass management etc to bitstreamed HD audio so you were forced to use PCM (think the marantzes and their audessey). So we've come full circle and can only apply bass management to bitstreamed not 5.1 PCM?
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 16, 2010 12:08:17 GMT -5
I'm confused by this... so if a blu-ray is encoded with lossless multi-channel PCM and you play on the UMC you have to be in direct mode which will not apply any of the bass management?? The problem with many earlier HDMI devises is they didn't have the horsepower to apply bass management etc to bitstreamed HD audio so you were forced to use PCM (think the marantzes and their audessey). So we've come full circle and can only apply bass management to bitstreamed not 5.1 PCM? You should be able to use either and have full processing. This is not multi-ch stereo which is designed to take 2Ch and make it come out all speakers, also known as party mode. Doing this with a MCh track will alter spatial information of the original track. The UMC-1 should have a mode that accepts the PCM as is and applies EMO-Q, bass management, etc., without altering the track. Every AVR out there now does this, typically calling it "Direct" mode. |
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Post by hogweed75 on Mar 16, 2010 12:12:08 GMT -5
Not being able to use the processing really sucks on LPCM. The worst thing I really hate with LPCM on the UMC-1 is that it's constantly losing lock and I have to select stereo and then click back to direct. Some movies are worse then others. Bondock Saints II I had to give up on Lossless LPCM and switch the HTPC to convert everything to DTS and then the Emotiva works fine. I've noticed this with any LPCM that I've tried to play and this is with either of the two HTPC's that I have. I've noticed that it's always happens on the layer change of the disc's where there is a slight glitch and then, no sound. Grab the remote, click stereo, let it lock then click direct, opps, no sub working, click stereo, then back to direct, OK there's the sub. Finally! Now the wife's saying "I thought this is new equipment that should be working. Wind it back so we can hear what they said". Geez!
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Post by mysterymachine on Mar 16, 2010 12:31:03 GMT -5
You should be able to use either and have full processing. This is not multi-ch stereo which is designed to take 2Ch and make it come out all speakers, also known as party mode. Doing this with a MCh track will alter spatial information of the original track. The UMC-1 should have a mode that accepts the PCM as is and applies EMO-Q, bass management, etc., without altering the track. Every AVR out there now does this, typically calling it "Direct" mode. thanks, I keep getting different reports... can you confirm that direct mode keeps emoq crossovers etc? Not being able to use the processing really sucks on LPCM. The worst thing I really hate with LPCM on the UMC-1 is that it's constantly losing lock and I have to select stereo and then click back to direct. Some movies are worse then others. Bondock Saints II I had to give up on Lossless LPCM and switch the HTPC to convert everything to DTS and then the Emotiva works fine. I've noticed this with any LPCM that I've tried to play and this is with either of the two HTPC's that I have. I've noticed that it's always happens on the layer change of the disc's where there is a slight glitch and then, no sound. Grab the remote, click stereo, let it lock then click direct, opps, no sub working, click stereo, then back to direct, OK there's the sub. Finally! Now the wife's saying "I thought this is new equipment that should be working. Wind it back so we can hear what they said". Geez! I don't know what to say but OUCH. One of my goals in getting the UMC was to make it simpler for other family members than my current setup with switches and a scaler. |
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 16, 2010 12:42:52 GMT -5
You should be able to use either and have full processing. This is not multi-ch stereo which is designed to take 2Ch and make it come out all speakers, also known as party mode. Doing this with a MCh track will alter spatial information of the original track. The UMC-1 should have a mode that accepts the PCM as is and applies EMO-Q, bass management, etc., without altering the track. Every AVR out there now does this, typically calling it "Direct" mode. thanks, I keep getting different reports... can you confirm that direct mode keeps emoq crossovers etc? Th reports coming in indicate it does not. |
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Post by moovtune on Mar 16, 2010 14:36:15 GMT -5
On my Onkyo 886, selecting MCH PCM mode keeps the bass management, EQ etc. - selecting DIRECT mode bypasses those features - hence the name DIRECT. I don't have a UMC-1, but I would think DIRECT would bypass DSP features.
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Post by mysterymachine on Mar 16, 2010 14:49:39 GMT -5
thanks, I keep getting different reports... can you confirm that direct mode keeps emoq crossovers etc? Th reports coming in indicate it does not. That matches other receivers I have had. How most everything else I have used operates is if it gets a signal of type X it defaults to just decoding X and doing the bass management etc but then you can apply things like DTS Neo6 on top. Using direct essentially turned off all processing - I never use direct except on the multi-channel analog from the blu-ray becuase direct in digital means no timing, bass mgmt etc. For analog you can set those things in the blu-ray player so direct makes sense to avoid doubling up the accounting for distance etc. It sounds like it was a simple oversight that there is no plain mode for M-CH PCM - anyone talk to someone at Emo about this? I don't have my UMC yet. Also... anyone with a UMC care to comment on the PLIIx being poor? Several people have said it is - anyone compare to other units? (for example on your prior onkyo was the PLIIx any different?) I thought PLIIx decoding would be the same algorithm regardless if its a UMC or an onkyo etc. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 16, 2010 14:55:15 GMT -5
I have my Advanced Playback modes set to PLIIx Movies for both PCM and Multichannel PCM input types. It sounds great to me, but then again mine is mostly dedicated to TV and movies and I do not care to listen to music through my surrounds.
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Post by mysterymachine on Mar 16, 2010 15:02:25 GMT -5
I have my Advanced Playback modes set to PLIIx Movies for both PCM and Multichannel PCM input types. It sounds great to me, but then again mine is mostly dedicated to TV and movies and I do not care to listen to music through my surrounds. Thanks dyohn, in my experience running PLII on a 5+ channel source in my 5.1 setup does not seem to change the sound. I thought the goal of the PL modes is to fill channels that are not present in the source signals - what does it do if the source number of channels matches your output? I would hope the answer is nothing, but I don't know enough about how PLII works to answer that. If indeed it does nothing then its not a big deal for me to use it for M.Ch PCM FYI I just now finally got an email on my UMC order (preordered mid nov).... looks like I am most likely in the big batch going out after the update. |
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Post by littlesaint on Mar 16, 2010 15:28:19 GMT -5
My mistake. Direct would be bypass. On my Yammy, the mode I use for everything is called "Straight" which is whatever it gets, it uses. If I send it MCh PCM, it does nothing but the usual processing. If it gets DTS or DD, it decodes them. Stereo is stereo, etc. This is the mode I would want for the UMC-1, but it sounds like no such thing exists. PLIIx would be OK most of the time as it should leave 5.1 untouched, but I wouldn't like it for stereo stuff I wanted to stay stereo.
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Post by moovtune on Mar 16, 2010 15:28:52 GMT -5
PLIIx (the X is important, PLII is different, PLIIz is the newest) applied to a 5.1 source shouldn't do much of anything to change the sound. If the source is 5.1 but you have a 7.1 setup, then it should affect the surrounds sound somewhat as it creates the additional back surround channels. For a stereo L/R or Lt/Rt source it should have the greatest change as it extracts center, surround (in stereo) and if a 7.1 system back surrounds (in stereo) and sub info (dependent on bass management setup)
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 16, 2010 15:31:40 GMT -5
The real reason I have mine setup this way is to deal with the 2-channel signals from DirecTV. Most of the time it's Dolby Digital, but frequently it switches back and forth from DD to Dolby 2.0 or PCM 2.0 and I want to maintain my center channel information.  |
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Post by bladerunner123 on Mar 16, 2010 15:39:53 GMT -5
PLIIx (the X is important, PLII is different, PLIIz is the newest) applied to a 5.1 source shouldn't do much of anything to change the sound. If the source is 5.1 but you have a 7.1 setup, then it should affect the surrounds sound somewhat as it creates the additional back surround channels. For a stereo L/R or Lt/Rt source it should have the greatest change as it extracts center, surround (in stereo) and if a 7.1 system back surrounds (in stereo) and sub info (dependent on bass management setup) I have a 7.1 setup and use the PLIIx mode to fill my 2 back speakers for the lossless formats. Unfortunately it does seem to affect the sound. Minimally the volume is noticeably lowered from just running the lossless formats in 5.1. it's hard to say for sure that the quality is worse, because sometimes lower volume can be mistaken for lower quality. there's no way to be sure because switching back and forth changes the level. |
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Post by moovtune on Mar 16, 2010 15:40:02 GMT -5
I use PLIIx also for Direct TV watching and for 5.1 DD and True HD because I have a 7.1 setup and like the back channels active. And for the occasional older Dolby Stereo DVD title.
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Post by mick16 on Mar 16, 2010 17:59:04 GMT -5
So what's the deal if you're going via LPCM with the PS3 - if it says Direct does that mean that its not utilizing any of the EQ functions? Are the speaker levels still in effect?
I've just been letting it run when I saw the TrueHD or DTS-MA and aside from thinking the surrounds were weak, I didn't really give it much concern. Maybe I"m better just letting it go via HDMI and sticking with 5.1 DD or DTS?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 16, 2010 18:07:14 GMT -5
So what's the deal if you're going via LPCM with the PS3 - if it says Direct does that mean that its not utilizing any of the EQ functions? Are the speaker levels still in effect? I've just been letting it run when I saw the TrueHD or DTS-MA and aside from thinking the surrounds were weak, I didn't really give it much concern. Maybe I"m better just letting it go via HDMI and sticking with 5.1 DD or DTS? Yes, Direct in the UMC-1 means the DSP is not being utilized, so no EQ and no bass management. I don't know if the level controls are bypassed... |
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Post by mick16 on Mar 16, 2010 18:18:06 GMT -5
So my options are getting a PS3 slim (not going to happen as I like backward compatibility), getting a dedicated blu-ray player (don't want to spend another $150) , or a firmware fix, am I basically SOL?
This might be a deal breaker for me with this unit.
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- is I have my Oppo BDP-80 connected via the multi-ch analog inputs (previously I only had FL/FR/Sub connected). For multi-ch PCM blu-rays, I can just switch the UMC audio settings for the relative input from HDMI to EXT 7.1 CH, and the Oppo takes care of the bass management from there. 
