Subwoofer test tone?

[billmac]

I'm curious to know if other UMC-1 owners are finding the sub test tone to not be very accurate? When I run the level calibration the sub test tone is very weak with hardly any low bass output. As suggested I tried calibrated all speakers with DVE. To get an accurate reference volume level when using DVE I set the master volume of the UMC-1 to 62.5.

I then ran through the 5.1 test tones of DVE and when I got to the sub tone it was very loud at the volume I had on my sub (3.5 on my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus). I lowered the volume of the sub to 2 and was able to get close to the 75dB as the SPL meter would indicate. The setting for the sub on the UMC-1 was -10.0 .

When I played Live Free or Die on BR with the DTS-MA the sub volume was non exsistent . I had to raise the volume of the sub back up to the original setting of 3.5 then raise the UMC-1 sub level back to where it was to get any LFE output from the sub.

So I decided to just recalibrate using the test tones with the UMC-1 with the volume of the UMC-1 set at 34. I use the volume at 34 as I found most settings of LCR and Surrounds was close to 0 so that I did not have to worry about the levels changing when powering down then back up. I do not understand why the sub test tone does not output a strong LFE low bass signal when I got it fine from the DVE test tone.

I have a few questions for other UMC-1 owners:

1. Is the sub test tone an issue that other UMC-1 owners are experiencing?

2. What volume level are other UMC-1 owners using when doing a level calibration?

3. This is more a question for Emotiva but why does the volume level play a factor when doing a level calibration? Every other AVR/prepro that I have used has the level calibration fixed at a specific volume.

4. Are other UMC-1 owners setting their subs volume more by ear than using the test tones?

Maybe my UMC-1 is defective regarding the sub test tone which I hope it is not as I was hoping it could be corrected in the next FW update. Any thoughts on this issue or advice would be appreciated .

Bill

[RayoVac]

Experienced the same exact thing. I had a post about the HOT sub issues here:
emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=preamps&thread=9699&page=1
I also detail how I ran the SPL measurements which I felt was the way most guys were doing them.

In the end... with the possibility of me being gone for 2 weeks out of every month... I could not wait for all the bugs to get worked out. Leaving my wife with a Proc that required input changes, resetting and other fiddling to get sound working properly was not an option. The center channel audio dropouts, total audio loss and weird changes in sound field (pausing or skipping forward on the DVR)... happened way to often.

The whole test tone sub level thing being screwed up and EmoQ Sub issues... just added frosting to the Stale Cake. It frustrates me because my DMC-1 ALSO had un-usable Sub Test Tones. (known problem, never addressed). The answer back then, was "Just use Avia".

On the UMC-1 I went to DVE/Avia to get the SPL right... but then as in my post... the Sub still seemed WAY to hot.

I figure at this point I will sit back and watch. Sold Mine. If they get the bugs ironed out, I may get another. Given the state of things at Emo lately... I may just wait for the XMC-1. Give the whole company time to settle down and determine a better way to do this all. (Please, Please Consider Oppo's model of testing and release.)

Rayo

[jimsfield]

Bill, I seem to recall there being some problems with the DVE subwoofer tones and that it did not handle the LFE correctly. If my memory is correct they may be off by 10dB. This is not to say that there are not problems with the UMC-1.

[hemster]

The sub running hot is a known issue and I believe addressed in the next upgrade.

That said, after running EmoQ to get a start, I finalized all my speakers using a sound meter at 75 dB.

[moodyman]

Mar 11, 2010 14:48:26 GMT -5 jimsfield said:

Bill, I seem to recall there being some problems with the DVE subwoofer tones and that it did not handle the LFE correctly.

From what I've read on other sites this is true.

[moe]

3. This is more a question for Emotiva but why does the volume level play a factor when doing a level calibration? Every other AVR/prepro that I have used has the level calibration fixed at a specific volume.

Actually most units I've owned operated this way,except Onkyo.I prefer this method as it's what I've always been used to.You can calibrate according to the volume you most often listen at.You dare not try to calibrate the Onkyo unless it's high noon.

I also don't use internal tones,avia etc..put out a tone as your listening to the player,pretty acurate.

[RadTech]

Mar 11, 2010 15:04:01 GMT -5 moe said:

3. This is more a question for Emotiva but why does the volume level play a factor when doing a level calibration? Every other AVR/prepro that I have used has the level calibration fixed at a specific volume.

Actually most units I've owned operated this way,except Onkyo.I prefer this method as it's what I've always been used to.You can calibrate according to the volume you most often listen at.You dare not try to calibrate the Onkyo unless it's high noon.

No doubt! I was level matching the subs on my Onkyo 805 and, my room mate thought the shuttle was going off.

[ratmice]

I agree, too. I had to readjust levels today as I was switching amps around. The test tones' amplitude varies with the master volume. The irritating fact is when you are in the speaker calibration screen, volume adjustments exit you out of it. So you have to trudge back in to observe the effect of the adjustments

Why on earth are the test tones volume dependent? I've never had a AV product where this is true (although, from the post above, the Onkyos do it, too). My previous components, would set the volume at "reference" level, for example 0 dB for my pioneer, then they would output the test tone that you should trim to 75 dB. With the Emo you have to adjust the volume to get a speaker to around 75 dB, then set all the trims relative to that. That's where the fact that the volume adjustment backs you out of the setup screen is a royal PITA.

I also did the sub today, the test tones are very soft, so that when you play stuff, you are blown out by the bass. This hopefully is getting fixed in the FW. I still think that the SW crossover are not working correctly, and may be the source of the excessive boominess.

[billmac]

Mar 11, 2010 15:04:01 GMT -5 moe said:

Actually most units I've owned operated this way,except Onkyo.I prefer this method as it's what I've always been used to.You can calibrate according to the volume you most often listen at.You dare not try to calibrate the Onkyo unless it's high noon.

I also don't use internal tones,avia etc..put out a tone as your listening to the player,pretty acurate.

I have owned Denons, Onkyos and Pioneers and the test tones were not volume dependent with any of those. I listen to my system at all different sound levels depending on the time of day or if family members are sleeping. I feel that the test tones should be at a set level (reference?). It would be good if Emotiva would add this fact to the UMC-1 manual that the test tones are volume dependent.

I do not find the Onkyo test tones that much louder than the Denon or the Pioneer units I have owned. If you have the sub volume cranked up when running an auto calibration of course it will be excessively loud . Can't see why the time of day matters for doing a calibration with an Onkyo or any other AVR/prepro. I try to do mine without anyone at home so whether it is 9am or 9pm it does not matter to me . Is it better at high noon due to the sun or something like that ?

Whether you chose to use a calibration disc or the internal test tones is a matter of choice. I have multiple sources TV/DVR, Bluray, HD/DVD and a CD player so I find the internal test tones to be my preference. I expect the internal test tones on whatever AVR/prepro I have to be accurate. The UMC-1s are not and hopefully that will be corrected with the upcoming FW update.

Bill

[billmac]

Mar 11, 2010 15:29:45 GMT -5 ratmice said:

The irritating fact is when you are in the speaker calibration screen, volume adjustments exit you out of it. So you have to trudge back in to observe the effect of the adjustments

I agree that this is a major PITA to have to keep bringing up the setup menu if you change the master volume.

Why on earth are the test tones volume dependent? I've never had a AV product where this is true (although, from the post above, the Onkyos do it, too).

The Onkyo test tones are not volume dependent same as the Pioneer and Denon. Maybe the volume levels on his subs was a little high .

I also did the sub today, the test tones are very soft, so that when you play stuff, you are blown out by the bass. This hopefully is getting fixed in the FW. I still think that the SW crossover are not working correctly, and may be the source of the excessive boominess.

I hope the new FW corrects this as well.

How is that new MPS-1? Having the one amp will free up some rack space. What will go in its place, something new maybe a XPA-2 maybe ;D.

Bill

[billmac]

Mar 11, 2010 14:48:26 GMT -5 jimsfield said:

Bill, I seem to recall there being some problems with the DVE subwoofer tones and that it did not handle the LFE correctly. If my memory is correct they may be off by 10dB. This is not to say that there are not problems with the UMC-1.

Jim,

Thanks for that information . I do recall reading that awhile back, I wonder if the new HD version of DVE corrected the sub level issue?

[monkumonku]

Mar 11, 2010 15:29:45 GMT -5 ratmice said:

I agree, too. I had to readjust levels today as I was switching amps around. The test tones' amplitude varies with the master volume. The irritating fact is when you are in the speaker calibration screen, volume adjustments exit you out of it. So you have to trudge back in to observe the effect of the adjustments

If you are talking about what I think you are, then what you have to do is use the big knob on the UMC-1 to adjust the volume instead of the volume control on the remote. By using the knob, it does not take you out of the level setting mode. But using the remote knocks you right out of there.. go figure.

[flamingeye]

Doesn`t that make it more flexible so people can decide where there reference level is relative to where the volume is set at ? I do not under stand why would it matter if you can control where your reference level can be set on the volume dial or not or am I missing something

[ratmice]

Mar 11, 2010 17:32:14 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Mar 11, 2010 15:29:45 GMT -5 ratmice said:

I agree, too. I had to readjust levels today as I was switching amps around. The test tones' amplitude varies with the master volume. The irritating fact is when you are in the speaker calibration screen, volume adjustments exit you out of it. So you have to trudge back in to observe the effect of the adjustments

If you are talking about what I think you are, then what you have to do is use the big knob on the UMC-1 to adjust the volume instead of the volume control on the remote. By using the knob, it does not take you out of the level setting mode. But using the remote knocks you right out of there.. go figure.

You mean I have to get off the couch? Never!

[ratmice]

Mar 11, 2010 18:03:41 GMT -5 flamingeye said:

Doesn`t that make it more flexible so people can decide where there reference level is relative to where the volume is set at ? I do not under stand why would it matter if you can control where your reference level can be set on the volume dial or not or am I missing something

Reference level is really not a subjective thing. It basically means that at some specified pre-out voltage your speakers should produce a certain SPL using a given source tone. Most AVR's define 0 dB on their volume scale as that volume that produces the said pre-out voltage. So if you play your source at 0 dB then you will get exactly what the sound engineers of the media source want you to hear at reference. And my reference will be the same as your reference. See, we all get to use the same frame of reference. Now that doesn't mean you have to play at reference levels all the time, or ever. But, that way everybody knows what reference is.

At least as I see it.

[billmac]

Mar 11, 2010 18:03:41 GMT -5 flamingeye said:

Doesn`t that make it more flexible so people can decide where there reference level is relative to where the volume is set at ? I do not under stand why would it matter if you can control where your reference level can be set on the volume dial or not or am I missing something

I'm not sure on this but I always like the fact that the test tone level was fixed taking any chance of me screwing up the results of the speaker level calibration .

I find setting my speaker levels at the master volume at 34 works best. Then my SPL meter indicates 75dB for my LCR are right around 0. My surrounds have to be lowered to about 2.5-3.5dB. Now if I did my calibration at the volume level of say 20 I would be maxing out the gains on the UMC-1 speaker levels. If I did the calibration at 60 it would be the reverse I would think. I will have to try this tommorow possibly at high noon ;D.

So with no indication in the UMC-1s manual that the speaker level calibration is volume dependent then some UMC-1 owners that do not visit the Lounge could be a bit confused .

Bill

[flamingeye]

OK thank`s I just really didn`t think much about it before I just started the pink noise and started my calibrations with my ratshack spl

[ratmice]

Mar 11, 2010 22:27:11 GMT -5 flamingeye said:

OK thank`s I just really didn`t think much about it before I just started the pink noise and started my calibrations with my ratshack spl

Which is exactly what you should be able to do, and aslo exactly how much effort I want to put in as well Not possible at the moment with the UMC as it is now.

[RayoVac]

Maybe I am off base here... but my complaint with getting the reference level right, affects the gain I apply to the different channels. Sure I end up with the same result... but depending on where you start... I am bumping my center for example +2.5 to get things right... next time if I don't get the same exact starting point... I may be going 0 or -1.0 etc. I have only owned the DMC-1 (Which the SUB test tone blew big chunks) and Yamahas with YPAO before that. None of them were Volume dependent with the test tones. (at least I don't remember ever having to screw with it like I did with the UMC-1).

And as other experienced... my EmoQ did NOT apply the sub. I tested with REW. Yes... other channels could be seen changing in REW along with easily hearing a difference with my ear. The Sub... nope... never changed no matter how far I screwed with the EQ, tried many different sound modes.

Of course I think all of this could EASILY be fixed with firmware updates. Does not seem to be a hardware related issue at all. So I guess that is the positive to it all.

[moodyman]

Mar 11, 2010 23:21:24 GMT -5 RayoVac said:

Maybe I am off base here... but my complaint with getting the reference level right, affects the gain I apply to the different channels. Sure I end up with the same result... but depending on where you start... I am bumping my center for example +2.5 to get things right... next time if I don't get the same exact starting point... I may be going 0 or -1.0 etc. I have only owned the DMC-1 (Which the SUB test tone blew big chunks) and Yamahas with YPAO before that. None of them were Volume dependent with the test tones. (at least I don't remember ever having to screw with it like I did with the UMC-1).

And as other experienced... my EmoQ did NOT apply the sub. I tested with REW. Yes... other channels could be seen changing in REW along with easily hearing a difference with my ear. The Sub... nope... never changed no matter how far I screwed with the EQ, tried many different sound modes.

Of course I think all of this could EASILY be fixed with firmware updates. Does not seem to be a hardware related issue at all. So I guess that is the positive to it all.

why don't you set your volume to say 35 or 40 for example and set it to that every time you run speaker cal...