ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 29, 2010 13:20:27 GMT -5
Honestly all I would expect out of the XMC-1, would be features built literally on top of the UMC-1 platform. Like the XLR outputs, maybe a few more bands of EQ(hopefully), mildly better DACs(Expect AD DACs again), and a dual output HDMI switcher again with DCDi upscaling. Im not expecting much more than that........ For $999, I'd agree. I don't think that's what well see, though. I think we're going to see a unit in the $1400-$1500 range, maybe more, that will include features like networking and/or USB playback, extra sub outputs, significant improvement to the entire digital-to-analog conversion aspects, and more. FOr a usb playback input, extra sub out and even a significant DAC improvement, I think $1500 is going to be too much honestly. At that pricepoint your looking at Onkyo's 5507 processor which already has dual sub outputs,XLR's, networking, Burr Brown DACs, Reon HQV upscaling, multiband EQ functions etc etc. IF the XMC-1 is going to be going up against a unit like that, Im going to expect ALOT more than the preliminary specs that have been given to it........... |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 29, 2010 15:16:36 GMT -5
Unless Emotiva throws us a Wolfson / Sabre / AKM curveball, I personally do not believe anything they release, from a DAC perspective, will even approach being on par with the BDP-83SE. The 83SE uses a Sabre DAC that is heralded as one of the finest DACs in the world. I can't argue with this, I've heard it in the little Peachtree and it is a fine, fine sounding DAC. I think the AD (Analog Devices) DAC that might end up in the XMC is a fine DAC, as well, but it's just not on par. The reason I list Wolfson and AKM is because AKM DACs are from a company that's famous in professional audio for AD Converters and I think their DACs can be just as good as their AD stuff (I've owned them, heard them, love them). I think Wolfson has always made some of the smoothest, finest sounding DACs, and you will find them in some of the finest CD-players made. Sabre, by spec alone, is a touch above everyone. By sound, they are certainly on par. Analog Devices makes some very nice DACs, as well, but I haven't experienced many of their products in critical listening. I'd be interested in listening to the ERC-1 some time, but I'm only mildly curious. So, to me, this is no question, if you're comparing DACs, UMC/83 both use some pretty low-end Cirrus stuff, unless it's 2-channel from the 83, it has a higher-end Cirrus DAC, but I'm not a fan of their sound. The XMC hopefully will not be relegated to Cirrus and will get a nice Analog Device DAC, in which case, it will certainly be a fine sounding piece and a high-quality contender. But, the 83SE has a Sabre DAC. Competition just ended. You could also consider one of the Peacthree devices, they start at $799. Peachtree Audio Decco2Ive heard the differences between the 83SE and 83 using the analog outputs(thus using their internal DACs) and honestly there isnt really a big difference in SQ at all. It certainly does not warrent double the price. Sabre DACs are pretty good, but I would not call them the best at all. Not the ones put in the 83SE for sure. I wouldn't even put the 83SE on the same platform as some midgrade redbook players like Wadia's older 831, a few Arcam models or Adcom's GCD-700 changer or 750 single disc unit. No way. I have to disagree with you on this.. IMO the SE is definately worth the $400 increase in price considering the cost of a good CD player. If you are already looking to buy the BDP-83 as a blu-ray, to have an excellent stereo CD player for an extra $400 is a no brainer.. I bought a Rotel RCD-1072 CD player a year ago and it has been sitting in the box since I got my 83SE. The Rotel is not a super high end CD player by any means, but it was more then $400. Now if only the OPPO looked as nice as the Rotel.. I have also seen a few comparisons of the 83SE to MacIntosh and other "high price" brands by people who own both.. The results are very interesting... Here is one: audioaficionado.org/general-audio-discussion/2991-oppo-bdp-83se-versus-mcintosh-mcd500.htmlCheers |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 29, 2010 15:55:53 GMT -5
Ive heard the differences between the 83SE and 83 using the analog outputs(thus using their internal DACs) and honestly there isnt really a big difference in SQ at all. It certainly does not warrent double the price. Sabre DACs are pretty good, but I would not call them the best at all. Not the ones put in the 83SE for sure. I wouldn't even put the 83SE on the same platform as some midgrade redbook players like Wadia's older 831, a few Arcam models or Adcom's GCD-700 changer or 750 single disc unit. No way. I have to disagree with you on this.. IMO the SE is definately worth the $400 increase in price considering the cost of a good CD player. If you are already looking to buy the BDP-83 as a blu-ray, to have an excellent stereo CD player for an extra $400 is a no brainer.. I bought a Rotel RCD-1072 CD player a year ago and it has been sitting in the box since I got my 83SE. The Rotel is not a super high end CD player by any means, but it was more then $400. Now if only the OPPO looked as nice as the Rotel.. I have also seen a few comparisons of the 83SE to MacIntosh and other "high price" brands by people who own both.. The results are very interesting... Here is one: audioaficionado.org/general-audio-discussion/2991-oppo-bdp-83se-versus-mcintosh-mcd500.htmlCheers Well, kind of a poor comparison in honesty, against a brand I sold and installed for many years that I honestly do not have a very high opinion of. Like I said, the Oppo is a SOLID multidisc player for the money, Im not arguing that at all. I just don't think the SE is necessarily worth the extra coin for the ESS DACs. Id rather bitstream out a regular 83 into a better processor with better onboard DACs for music and bypass one extra analog stage. As for the 1072, Id actually take a used one with a few simple mods done over the 83SE for cd playback. Again thats just me though, as I prefer the more neutral laid back sound. The 83SE definetly has a forward presentation in the midrange/treble compared to that rotel. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 29, 2010 16:21:35 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you on this.. IMO the SE is definately worth the $400 increase in price considering the cost of a good CD player. If you are already looking to buy the BDP-83 as a blu-ray, to have an excellent stereo CD player for an extra $400 is a no brainer.. I bought a Rotel RCD-1072 CD player a year ago and it has been sitting in the box since I got my 83SE. The Rotel is not a super high end CD player by any means, but it was more then $400. Now if only the OPPO looked as nice as the Rotel.. I have also seen a few comparisons of the 83SE to MacIntosh and other "high price" brands by people who own both.. The results are very interesting... Here is one: audioaficionado.org/general-audio-discussion/2991-oppo-bdp-83se-versus-mcintosh-mcd500.htmlCheers Well, kind of a poor comparison in honesty, against a brand I sold and installed for many years that I honestly do not have a very high opinion of. Like I said, the Oppo is a SOLID multidisc player for the money, Im not arguing that at all. I just don't think the SE is necessarily worth the extra coin for the ESS DACs. Id rather bitstream out a regular 83 into a better processor with better onboard DACs for music and bypass one extra analog stage. As for the 1072, Id actually take a used one with a few simple mods done over the 83SE for cd playback. Again thats just me though, as I prefer the more neutral laid back sound. The 83SE definetly has a forward presentation in the midrange/treble compared to that rotel. Which brand was it that you sold/installed (Rotel or McIntosh)? On a side note, what processor would you bitstream too that could outpeform the DAC/Analog section of the 83SE? I am sure there are some, but they can't be cheap. Also what mods are you referring to on the 1072? I intend to redeploy this player in my 2nd system once I finish the basement this summer. |
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Post by Spiky on Mar 29, 2010 16:46:58 GMT -5
Onkyo's 5507 processor which already has dual sub outputs,XLR's, networking, Burr Brown DACs, Reon HQV upscaling, .... You think the low-mid HQV is better than the top Genesis? I haven't seen either. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 29, 2010 17:04:39 GMT -5
Since the XMC-1 isn't even out yet, there is no way to tell. Even if we knew all the specs, that still doesn't answer the question. The design of the unit will matter and the sound of the DAC will be subjective. Judd, This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through this thread. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 29, 2010 17:24:52 GMT -5
Well, kind of a poor comparison in honesty, against a brand I sold and installed for many years that I honestly do not have a very high opinion of. Like I said, the Oppo is a SOLID multidisc player for the money, Im not arguing that at all. I just don't think the SE is necessarily worth the extra coin for the ESS DACs. Id rather bitstream out a regular 83 into a better processor with better onboard DACs for music and bypass one extra analog stage. As for the 1072, Id actually take a used one with a few simple mods done over the 83SE for cd playback. Again thats just me though, as I prefer the more neutral laid back sound. The 83SE definetly has a forward presentation in the midrange/treble compared to that rotel. Which brand was it that you sold/installed (Rotel or McIntosh)? On a side note, what processor would you bitstream too that could outpeform the DAC/Analog section of the 83SE? I am sure there are some, but they can't be cheap. Also what mods are you referring to on the 1072? I intend to redeploy this player in my 2nd system once I finish the basement this summer. Both actually. But regardless, I wasnt talking about Rotel. Rotel has always been very reliable, good sounding equipment for a relatively reasonable price point considering the markup on the product. As for DACs Id use the $400 saved towards? You can pick up a Naim, COnrad Johnson,Meridian DACs in mint condition used for about the same price as an 83SE or well below for example. A friend of mine picked up a Naim DAC for $575 on Audiogon last month. Hell of a stand alone DAC. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 29, 2010 19:23:15 GMT -5
Then what you are really saying doesn't have anything to do with the Oppo.. You are suggesting that a CD player with its own quality DAC and analog section are not worth it...
You might be right about that, however, if you do want a stand alone universal player that 99.9% of people have said sounds excellent then I think the Oppo 83SE presents excellent value..
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 29, 2010 21:50:45 GMT -5
Then what you are really saying doesn't have anything to do with the Oppo.. You are suggesting that a CD player with its own quality DAC and analog section are not worth it... You might be right about that, however, if you do want a stand alone universal player that 99.9% of people have said sounds excellent then I think the Oppo 83SE presents excellent value.. No, Im just saying that if the DAC in the Oppo83 doesnt sit well as a cd player on its own, then Id take the extra $400 and put it towards a processor with a much better DAC array or even a dedicated DAC for those who want a multiplayer source unit, because I really don't think there is a huge difference in SQ or presentation from the SE player over the regular 83. Again I think the Oppo players in general are good values, I would just go a different route than spend $400 more on the SE which basically only provides a marginal upgrade out of its analog circuits. Again, thats my opinion based on my experience with it. I personally wish they put the money into a better transport mechanism and the digital/hdmi output circuitry since it literally decodes all formats. That would have been nice. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 29, 2010 22:22:53 GMT -5
Then what you are really saying doesn't have anything to do with the Oppo.. You are suggesting that a CD player with its own quality DAC and analog section are not worth it... You might be right about that, however, if you do want a stand alone universal player that 99.9% of people have said sounds excellent then I think the Oppo 83SE presents excellent value.. No, Im just saying that if the DAC in the Oppo83 doesnt sit well as a cd player on its own, then Id take the extra $400 and put it towards a processor with a much better DAC array or even a dedicated DAC for those who want a multiplayer source unit, because I really don't think there is a huge difference in SQ or presentation from the SE player over the regular 83. Again I think the Oppo players in general are good values, I would just go a different route than spend $400 more on the SE which basically only provides a marginal upgrade out of its analog circuits. Again, thats my opinion based on my experience with it. I personally wish they put the money into a better transport mechanism and the digital/hdmi output circuitry since it literally decodes all formats. That would have been nice. Fair enough.. I think you represent an minority, however, when it comes to opinion on difference between the standard Oppo and the SE and also on quality of the DAC/analog section on the 83Se.. To each their own.. I guess thats why so many products exist... |
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 30, 2010 12:30:07 GMT -5
then Id take the extra $400 and put it towards a processor with a much better DAC array But, you never answered his question, and I'm curious, too. Which processor with a "much better DAC array" would you buy? |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 31, 2010 7:33:05 GMT -5
then Id take the extra $400 and put it towards a processor with a much better DAC array But, you never answered his question, and I'm curious, too. Which processor with a "much better DAC array" would you buy? Yeah.. I would kinda like to know this as well.. |
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Post by bluebogart on Mar 31, 2010 8:42:32 GMT -5
I just got my 83 SE, I've had it less than a week -- and all I can say is that I love it. By far, the best sounding cd player I've ever heard. For DVDs, the video upscaling is incredible. I never believed in upscaling before because it always looked so bad, not with this player -- watching Star Wars in 1080P was incredible. The player has surpassed my expectations. I'm using a cheap pre/pro (waiting like everyone else for something from Emotiva), and using the direct channel inputs -- this player ROCKS! To me, it was a no brainer to spend the extra and get the SE. Also, I'm a guy on a budget -- and I know I will be happy with it for a very long time. How would an XMC-1 DAC section compare to the Oppo BDP-83 SE DAC section? Consider the quality of the analog audio output from a bitstream into the XMC-1 versus an analogue 7.1 into the UMC-1. Has anyone considered the following combinations? I am interested in a new processor and in search of the best DAC I can find. The ERC-1 has been considered, but I would prefer a single player for Blu-Ray and music. This makes me want to consider the XMC-1 versus the UMC-1. However, as an audio player the BDP-83 SE is supposed to be very good. It also has an better video processor than the XMC-1. It seems like if the price difference between the UMC and XMC is greater than $400 than the BDP-83 SE becomes more cost effective. (Plus I want a high quality player soon and could live a little longer with my TV switching HDMI). We still haven't heard the XMC-1 yet, or even what DAC it will use. Any comments? |
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Post by teedub21 on Mar 31, 2010 17:05:48 GMT -5
There are a couple things to consider here as well: - The Class A rating from Stereophile is for the 2 channel outputs, which use a different DAC than the multichannel outputs. They said the difference on the multichannel outputs wasn't as large - The Oppo is fairly limited in it's setup for speaker sizes, distances, and crossovers compared to most processors, and you'd lose all room correction benefits as well with multichannel analog inputs typically. With 2 channel, I like to run straight stereo with large fronts in my system, but find room correction is to important to give up on multichannel audio. If I was after high end 2 channel, I might do the SE + UMC option, but for high end multichannel, I'd be more tempted to use the HDMI output over the analog outputs on the SE. That is why I feed the HDMI of my 83SE to my Integra DHC-9.9 for theater stuff and the analog 2 channel outs to my USP-1 for my 2 channel set up! Works great this way for me, since all my gear is located in one room and the wiring is distributed through the walls to the appropriate rooms/speakers. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 31, 2010 18:48:38 GMT -5
I just got my 83 SE, I've had it less than a week -- and all I can say is that I love it. By far, the best sounding cd player I've ever heard. For DVDs, the video upscaling is incredible. I never believed in upscaling before because it always looked so bad, not with this player -- watching Star Wars in 1080P was incredible. The player has surpassed my expectations. I'm using a cheap pre/pro (waiting like everyone else for something from Emotiva), and using the direct channel inputs -- this player ROCKS! To me, it was a no brainer to spend the extra and get the SE. Also, I'm a guy on a budget -- and I know I will be happy with it for a very long time. How would an XMC-1 DAC section compare to the Oppo BDP-83 SE DAC section? Consider the quality of the analog audio output from a bitstream into the XMC-1 versus an analogue 7.1 into the UMC-1. Has anyone considered the following combinations? I am interested in a new processor and in search of the best DAC I can find. The ERC-1 has been considered, but I would prefer a single player for Blu-Ray and music. This makes me want to consider the XMC-1 versus the UMC-1. However, as an audio player the BDP-83 SE is supposed to be very good. It also has an better video processor than the XMC-1. It seems like if the price difference between the UMC and XMC is greater than $400 than the BDP-83 SE becomes more cost effective. (Plus I want a high quality player soon and could live a little longer with my TV switching HDMI). We still haven't heard the XMC-1 yet, or even what DAC it will use. Any comments? Excellent!!!.... It is really a superb player... |
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Post by Spiky on Apr 2, 2010 0:36:58 GMT -5
Why don't you take the $400 and put it toward higher quality recordings instead of trying to make CD sound good?
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 2, 2010 11:57:12 GMT -5
Why don't you take the $400 and put it toward higher quality recordings instead of trying to make CD sound good? There are too many reasons to count. Time and cost, to name a few. Point me in the direction of all the Tori Amos, Postal Service, The Cure, David Gray, Guns N Roses, Alice In Chains, Big Pink and Metric albums on SACD/DVD-A for <$5 each. That's way over $400 and most of that content doesn't even exist. So, I'd prefer to make my existing content sound better / best. |
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Post by Mr. Ben on Apr 2, 2010 12:28:30 GMT -5
But, if you'll point me in the direction of all the Tori Amos, Postal Service, The Cure, David Gray, Guns N Roses, Alice In Chains, Big Pink and Metric albums on SACD/DVD-A for <$5 each, I would greatly appreciate it. I could finally put my $400 in the right place. The $5 each is a stretch in any format, but ignoring that, you need to get yourself a nice turntable. Tori AmosPostal ServiceThe CureDavid GrayGuns N RosesAlice In ChainsBig PinkMetric |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 2, 2010 12:32:13 GMT -5
But, if you'll point me in the direction of all the Tori Amos, Postal Service, The Cure, David Gray, Guns N Roses, Alice In Chains, Big Pink and Metric albums on SACD/DVD-A for <$5 each, I would greatly appreciate it. I could finally put my $400 in the right place. The $5 each is a stretch in any format, but ignoring that, you need to get yourself a nice turntable. Tori AmosPostal ServiceThe CureDavid GrayGuns N RosesAlice In ChainsBig PinkMetricBut I absolutely hate the sound of vinyl. I don't think it is in any way superior to digital, to my ears. Not because it isn't a high quality format, but because you will inevitably hear the needle against the record, and sometimes the pops. While I know many old-schoolers, and some new-schoolers can deal with it, and even like it, I can't. With a high-end redbook player, I can get a sound I much prefer to that of what I consider scratchy old vinyl. I'm looking forward to 96khz becoming the industry standard for recording / production / mastering. That will pretty much eliminate most of the current problems with digital and let me dump everything on a tiny little storage device to go everywhere with me. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Apr 2, 2010 16:55:58 GMT -5
Why don't you take the $400 and put it toward higher quality recordings instead of trying to make CD sound good? What mainstream format do you recommend? |
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