XMC and Oppo BDP-83 vs. UMC and Oppo BDP-83SE

[kellys]

How would an XMC-1 DAC section compare to the Oppo BDP-83 SE DAC section? Consider the quality of the analog audio output from a bitstream into the XMC-1 versus an analogue 7.1 into the UMC-1. Has anyone considered the following combinations?

I am interested in a new processor and in search of the best DAC I can find. The ERC-1 has been considered, but I would prefer a single player for Blu-Ray and music.

This makes me want to consider the XMC-1 versus the UMC-1. However, as an audio player the BDP-83 SE is supposed to be very good. It also has an better video processor than the XMC-1. It seems like if the price difference between the UMC and XMC is greater than $400 than the BDP-83 SE becomes more cost effective. (Plus I want a high quality player soon and could live a little longer with my TV switching HDMI).


We still haven't heard the XMC-1 yet, or even what DAC it will use. Any comments?

[BillBauman]

Unless Emotiva throws us a Wolfson / Sabre / AKM curveball, I personally do not believe anything they release, from a DAC perspective, will even approach being on par with the BDP-83SE. The 83SE uses a Sabre DAC that is heralded as one of the finest DACs in the world. I can't argue with this, I've heard it in the little Peachtree and it is a fine, fine sounding DAC. I think the AD (Analog Devices) DAC that might end up in the XMC is a fine DAC, as well, but it's just not on par. The reason I list Wolfson and AKM is because AKM DACs are from a company that's famous in professional audio for AD Converters and I think their DACs can be just as good as their AD stuff (I've owned them, heard them, love them). I think Wolfson has always made some of the smoothest, finest sounding DACs, and you will find them in some of the finest CD-players made. Sabre, by spec alone, is a touch above everyone. By sound, they are certainly on par. Analog Devices makes some very nice DACs, as well, but I haven't experienced many of their products in critical listening. I'd be interested in listening to the ERC-1 some time, but I'm only mildly curious. So, to me, this is no question, if you're comparing DACs, UMC/83 both use some pretty low-end Cirrus stuff, unless it's 2-channel from the 83, it has a higher-end Cirrus DAC, but I'm not a fan of their sound. The XMC hopefully will not be relegated to Cirrus and will get a nice Analog Device DAC, in which case, it will certainly be a fine sounding piece and a high-quality contender. But, the 83SE has a Sabre DAC. Competition just ended. You could also consider one of the Peacthree devices, they start at $799. Peachtree Audio Decco²

[Mischief]

I have been debating this same set of combinations. I decided a USP-1, UMC-1 combined with the Oppo SE would be the way to go. It should deliver fantastic stereo for SACD and CD.

[jb5200]

I am sorta waiting for the XMC like the rest of the world. Here's my dilema I have a chance to get an Anthem D2 for a steal (lower than any price on agon) from an authorized dealer so I can update it to the D2v anytime as well. I have always loved the Anthem sound.

Would the D2 have a better DAC than the XMC, I know they use the AKM? Right now I use a PS Audio DL III dac with a Yamaha RXV1400 for Pre/Pro & a computer based system. If possible I would like to eliminate that and go straight from the computer to the Pre/Pro and use their dac. I use an M2tech converter so I don't use USB.

My other thought would be to get the Wyred4sound DAC when it comes out which uses the ESS Sabre DAC and use that.

Which option do you think would be the best:

Option 1
D2 for Pre/Pro and DAC

Option 2
XMC for Pre/Pro and DAC

Option 3
XMC Pre/Pro with W4S DAC

[kellys]

The Oppo BDP-83 SE uses a mid range Sabre Ultra DAC though, but I am not sure how much of a difference it would make. It is too bad they did not use the reference chip. Whereas, the AD1955 in the ERC is the top of the line DAC from Analog Devices. They actually have nearly identical specs with both having a -110 THD rating and a dynamic range well beyond that of any digital music. Both the ERC-1 and the SE are supposed to sound fantastic, but I have never had the chance to hear either.

Implementation is key to any DAC and a clean power supply and the correct I/V stage and analog components. Emotiva likely has the edge here.

I am currently using a HTPC with a Auzentech sound card (AKM AK4396 DAC). While it is great sounding, I have heard both the DACs listed above are better. I have also been getting high frequency noise coupled into my amp since I upgraded to Win 7 (very disappointing).

Anyways, with no pricing on the XMC-1 and no updates on the timeline or DAC, I have started to wonder if the SE is a quick fix.

[ntrain42]

Mar 27, 2010 18:10:19 GMT -5 BillBauman said:

Unless Emotiva throws us a Wolfson / Sabre / AKM curveball, I personally do not believe anything they release, from a DAC perspective, will even approach being on par with the BDP-83SE. The 83SE uses a Sabre DAC that is heralded as one of the finest DACs in the world. I can't argue with this, I've heard it in the little Peachtree and it is a fine, fine sounding DAC. I think the AD (Analog Devices) DAC that might end up in the XMC is a fine DAC, as well, but it's just not on par. The reason I list Wolfson and AKM is because AKM DACs are from a company that's famous in professional audio for AD Converters and I think their DACs can be just as good as their AD stuff (I've owned them, heard them, love them). I think Wolfson has always made some of the smoothest, finest sounding DACs, and you will find them in some of the finest CD-players made. Sabre, by spec alone, is a touch above everyone. By sound, they are certainly on par. Analog Devices makes some very nice DACs, as well, but I haven't experienced many of their products in critical listening. I'd be interested in listening to the ERC-1 some time, but I'm only mildly curious. So, to me, this is no question, if you're comparing DACs, UMC/83 both use some pretty low-end Cirrus stuff, unless it's 2-channel from the 83, it has a higher-end Cirrus DAC, but I'm not a fan of their sound. The XMC hopefully will not be relegated to Cirrus and will get a nice Analog Device DAC, in which case, it will certainly be a fine sounding piece and a high-quality contender. But, the 83SE has a Sabre DAC. Competition just ended. You could also consider one of the Peacthree devices, they start at $799. Peachtree Audio Decco²

Ive heard the differences between the 83SE and 83 using the analog outputs(thus using their internal DACs) and honestly there isnt really a big difference in SQ at all. It certainly does not warrent double the price. Sabre DACs are pretty good, but I would not call them the best at all. Not the ones put in the 83SE for sure. I wouldn't even put the 83SE on the same platform as some midgrade redbook players like Wadia's older 831, a few Arcam models or Adcom's GCD-700 changer or 750 single disc unit. No way.

[Mischief]

Ntrain, I have to disagree, I have both the 83 and SE and there is a huge difference in the front L/R sound stage. Better imaging, more presence, bass, and detail. The difference is immense on both CD and SACD.

I also took advantage of taking it head to head with the Adcom units at a local dealer, even with their less than perfect setup, the SE met or bested their units. Eleven of us attended and all of us were in agreement.

More than a few professional and non-professional reviewers say the same thing. As far as movie soundtracks, no, the difference is not as great or perhaps not as noticeable. Stereophile gave it an A rating this year which puts in pretty high end company.

[smackrabbit]

There are a couple things to consider here as well:

- The Class A rating from Stereophile is for the 2 channel outputs, which use a different DAC than the multichannel outputs. They said the difference on the multichannel outputs wasn't as large
- The Oppo is fairly limited in it's setup for speaker sizes, distances, and crossovers compared to most processors, and you'd lose all room correction benefits as well with multichannel analog inputs typically. With 2 channel, I like to run straight stereo with large fronts in my system, but find room correction is to important to give up on multichannel audio.

If I was after high end 2 channel, I might do the SE + UMC option, but for high end multichannel, I'd be more tempted to use the HDMI output over the analog outputs on the SE.

[ntrain42]

Mar 28, 2010 15:17:26 GMT -5 Mischief said:

Ntrain, I have to disagree, I have both the 83 and SE and there is a huge difference in the front L/R sound stage. Better imaging, more presence, bass, and detail. The difference is immense on both CD and SACD.

I also took advantage of taking it head to head with the Adcom units at a local dealer, even with their less than perfect setup, the SE met or bested their units. Eleven of us attended and all of us were in agreement.

More than a few professional and non-professional reviewers say the same thing. As far as movie soundtracks, no, the difference is not as great or perhaps not as noticeable. Stereophile gave it an A rating this year which puts in pretty high end company.

The difference was mild at best(between the 83 and 83SE)IMO and this was using a top quality pair of monoblocks(BAT VK SE series tube mono's and Aragon Palladium monoblocks)with a passive Adcom GFP 750 passive preamp and a ML #32 using good quality mastered redbook cd's there really wasnt a big difference. Again, not enough IMO to warrent a doubling of price over the 83. I personally think there was a placebo effect in place if you think there was really that big of a difference over the regular 83 using the analog L/R outputs. And there is no way I would put it on par with a redbook player(playing redboock cd's of course)like an 831 Wadia or a GCD 750, or something of similiar quality. Its a fine multi format player, dont get me wrong. But its analog section is not as good as you think. I would not take it over a good quality dedicated midrange cd player as mentioned before. For those who want a multiformat disc player, Id take the regular 83 run a bitstream out through HDMI and take the money saved($400) and put it towards a better processor with good high quality built in DACs(or put the money towards a good external DAC for that matter) myself. I could care less about what "professional" review sites say, as most of them are pretty much all driven by advertising of the same companies products they review in the first place, especially Stereophile Magazine.

[jb5200]

So no advice on the Anthem D2 DAC or the W4S DAC?

[Deleted]

I've heard the D2 several times in auditions, and it continues to impress me.

However, I would not pay the asking price, even used...It's already outdated with HDMI 1.1

just my nickel

[kellys]

The Statement D2 has very good reviews overall. With the ARC feature, it would have a very similar feature set as XMC-1, but the video processing section would blow away the video processing in the XMC-1. I wouldn't hesitate at all in purchasing the D2 if it was less than $1500. I would have to think long and hard between $1500 and $2000, and would wait for the XMC if it was over $2000. Thats more budget related...

The D2 uses an AKM DAC very similar to the one in my Soundcard (AK4395 vs AK4396), but it likely the D2 a better implementation. It appears they use an asynchronous upsampler that reclocks and removes jitter in the digital signal, which should really improve SQ. I would have no problems recommending the AKM DAC's. It was a huge step up in SQ from the DAC's in my Denon AVR.

PS - I also had the Yamaha RXV1700, but did not like its sound at all. I ended up returning it to keep the Denon AVR I was replacing. I thought the Yamaha was to cold and analytic, but I believe it was the amp section, and not the DACs, that I did not care for.

ntrain42 - There sure is a lot of hype over the Sabre DAC's. I think that I would also rather spend the extra $400 on an upgraded processor. I am still hoping that the XMC-1 will be available for $999 too...

[bigred7078]

Mar 28, 2010 18:22:16 GMT -5 jb5200 said:

So no advice on the Anthem D2 DAC or the W4S DAC?

A fine unit, but I would not buy since the D2v upgrade is ridiculously priced.

[kellys]

HDMI 1.1 would be fine if your Blu-Ray player can decode to LPCM, so the D2v upgrade probably isn't required. I think the upgrade is about the same price though as the XMC-1 is supposed to be. They may do a 3D upgrade in the future which I would wait for instead.

Also, if you are going with an outboard DAC for audio, the UMC is probably good enough for HT.

[jb5200]

Thanks, that helps a lot. Actually this is only for an audio only 2.1 channel system. I don't use it for video, I have a separate system that I use for that.

So it sounds like the D2 is out of the question. That'll save me a ton of dough, eventhough I love the Anthem sound. I think I will wait for the XMC and try it out and later get the Wyred4sound DAC later.

[Mischief]

Well, let me put it this way... My Macintosh MCD500, at a cost of $6,500 has been the pride of my system for the last 6 months, I sold it to a friend after I tried the SE(which I bought for the bedroom system) and bought a second one for my dedicated 2.0 system. The standard 83 wasn't good enough for my bedroom and went to my sons room.

I am not saying it is the best thing since sliced cheese, I am saying that it beats the pants off many, many players at many times the price. If you cannot hear a difference between the 83 and the SE on stereo redbook or SACD, I have to question your setup... that is my opinion, take it or leave it.

[jlafrenz]

Since the XMC-1 isn't even out yet, there is no way to tell. Even if we knew all the specs, that still doesn't answer the question. The design of the unit will matter and the sound of the DAC will be subjective.

[ntrain42]

Mar 28, 2010 20:43:05 GMT -5 Mischief said:

Well, let me put it this way... My Macintosh MCD500, at a cost of $6,500 has been the pride of my system for the last 6 months, I sold it to a friend after I tried the SE(which I bought for the bedroom system) and bought a second one for my dedicated 2.0 system. The standard 83 wasn't good enough for my bedroom and went to my sons room.

I am not saying it is the best thing since sliced cheese, I am saying that it beats the pants off many, many players at many times the price. If you cannot hear a difference between the 83 and the SE on stereo redbook or SACD, I have to question your setup... that is my opinion, take it or leave it.

Well, to be very honest, there are ALOT of expensive CD/SACD players that frankly really arent worth the price asked or thousands less even.

And I really wouldnt question my setup, which is literally tailored specifically to audio. You yourself though said you were doing direct comaprsons to a less than perfect room against "adcom" cd players. Hehe, Adcom has alot of cd players, most of them are more than a decade old.........most of them out there need reconditioning.

[ntrain42]

Mar 28, 2010 20:58:30 GMT -5 jlafrenz said:

Since the XMC-1 isn't even out yet, there is no way to tell. Even if we knew all the specs, that still doesn't answer the question. The design of the unit will matter and the sound of the DAC will be subjective.

Honestly all I would expect out of the XMC-1, would be features built literally on top of the UMC-1 platform. Like the XLR outputs, maybe a few more bands of EQ(hopefully), mildly better DACs(Expect AD DACs again), and a dual output HDMI switcher again with DCDi upscaling. Im not expecting much more than that........

[BillBauman]

Mar 29, 2010 10:53:08 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Mar 28, 2010 20:58:30 GMT -5 jlafrenz said:

Since the XMC-1 isn't even out yet, there is no way to tell. Even if we knew all the specs, that still doesn't answer the question. The design of the unit will matter and the sound of the DAC will be subjective.

Honestly all I would expect out of the XMC-1, would be features built literally on top of the UMC-1 platform. Like the XLR outputs, maybe a few more bands of EQ(hopefully), mildly better DACs(Expect AD DACs again), and a dual output HDMI switcher again with DCDi upscaling. Im not expecting much more than that........

For $999, I'd agree. I don't think that's what well see, though. I think we're going to see a unit in the $1400-$1500 range, maybe more, that will include features like networking and/or USB playback, extra sub outputs, significant improvement to the entire digital-to-analog conversion aspects, and more.