NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 22:05:08 GMT -5
Wait a second here! If you don't use a sub(s) in your system, then you reroute that LFE channel to the speakers that can handle it right? ...Which is usually your two front mains. Now, if you do use a sub(s) in your system, and that you set the LPF for the LFE Channel from your pre/pro let's say to 80 Hz, how do we know that the LFE information from 80 Hz to 120 Hz (if indeed contained in some movie audio soundtracks) will be rerouted to your main speakers? ...And to all of them? ...Even if you're using an 11.3-channel system setup? ...That's eleven (11) speakers! With LFE information! Am I dreaming? Am I correct? Is this what happens if I set my Onkyo pre/pro's LPF for the LFE Channel to 80 Hz? Is this the same with the UMC-1? XMC-1? Heck, I don't even know what's the feature's set on those Emo pre/pros! Maybe I'm just simply in the wrong thread or on the wrong track or out of my jurisdiction???
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 22:05:08 GMT -5
I'm not asking a crossover question.....I'm asking a sound mixing question. Generally, i think that sound over 80 hz is directional...you can hear where it comes from....and it doesn't matter if it's your sub, your mains or your rears. The sound folks who created the LFE track wanted that sound to come from somewhere....and my supposition is that they wanted it to come thru your sub. Dr Hsu is right, you don't want your sub to play over 90hz because it becomes directional.
There is a mismatch between 80hz and the LFE specs which call for up to 120hz. I believed that THX solved that dilemna by saying their .1 track would not go over 80hz.
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Post by billmac on Aug 13, 2010 22:05:33 GMT -5
In theory I agree with you. I would prefer to just open everything up and let the end user do whatever they want. I don't like the fact that auto manufacturers put limiters and lockouts on everything in the car. Give me an old car where I actually drive and where I do what I want with it. Unfortunately the reality we live in today is virtually no one wants to take responsability for their own actions. They want to blame everyone else and they want everyone else to pay for their mistakes. Now companies have to protect themselves and believe it or not, if a piece of our gear was to blow up someones speakers even though they may have set it up wrong. Someone would take it to the extreme. I can tell from speaking with so many of you that you feel the same way I do and like me, you would take responsability for your own actions. But it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. Lonnie, Are you saying your above thoughts (or Emotiva's) is the reasoning behind not offering a feature like the narrow band PEQ with the UMC-1? So the design of the UMC-1 is structured to keep it simple so no one will screw up and blame Emotiva? To design a prepro such as the UMC-1 with the mind set that the consumer is going to come after Emotiva for every little mistake they make seems a little odd to me to be quite honest. Bill
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 22:11:31 GMT -5
Bill....it's the american way. As lonnie said, no one takes any responsibility, it's someone else's fault and they call their favorite lawyer "make em pay.com" or equivalent. Trip on a sidewalk because you're talking on your cellphone....it's the stores fault that there was a rock on the sidewalk...pay up.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 22:11:42 GMT -5
I agree with jamrock, I've never heard of it going from sub to mains. It's always been passing the sound from the mains to the sub. Yeah, you're absolutely right, the info goes from your mains to your sub, and not the other way around!!! ...Unless you're not using any sub(s) in your system of course. * I got confused in my own jeopardy!!! ;D And who's fault it is? ...Well, Lonnie I guess! ;D Plus monkumonku also! ;D Just kidding; it's my own fault to not be as alert as I should be. But now I believe I'm back on track, so watch out! ;D
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 22:14:56 GMT -5
guys....it turns out that we've all learned something here. In some/many cases the Low Pass Filter is really a Low Pass Crossover and it does act in reverse. I didn't know this, but a quick check on the internet opened my eyes. It's quite possible that the UMC-1 has a sub crossover and not the low pass filter or low frequency cutoff that we all assumed.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 22:26:25 GMT -5
"Reverse crossover", hey I like it! ;D
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edrummereasye
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 13, 2010 22:27:07 GMT -5
I agree with jamrock, I've never heard of it going from sub to mains. It's always been passing the sound from the mains to the sub. Not directed at the Captain in particular, but the few posts up to and including that one... What does it matter? Or, put another way, we've heard of it now. And, frankly, why not? If you don't like it, or if I don't like it in a minute when I get downstairs, then set the LFE Crossover in your UMC to 120. I think it's a good thing that you can send it to the mains...especially as it's "directionally locatable"...the sub is for stuff that's not, right? And why is everyone acting like doing something innovative is a bad thing? Or is everyone? Also, Dr. Hsu had a heavy hand in designing my Outlaw LFM-1...and I'm pretty sure that the dial on the back goes higher than 90.
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Post by billmac on Aug 13, 2010 22:28:07 GMT -5
I have the LPF on my Onkyo 886 set to 120Hz due to a little research and suggestions from Chris at Audyssey as well as several other very knowledgable AVS members. Not being the most technical person the explanation was that using the 120Hz LPF setting assures that you will not lose any LFE information. I guess everyone will have a different take on this setting but from what I have read most suggest setting the LPF to 120Hz. If when using the 120Hz LPF setting you find your sub is more localized change the setting to 100Hz or 80Hz if really needed. Below is a link from a thread at AVS where member sdurani's posts explain the LPF setting very well (at least to me he does). It seems the only issue using the 120Hz setting for the LPF of the LFE is possible sub localization. www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=964791Since the LFE channel can contain information up to 120hz, that's where I would set the low pass filter. As mentioned before, the ONLY reason I would bring it back down to 100Hz or even 80Hz is if I started to localize the subwoofer. Otherwise, enjoy the entire contents of the LFE channel. Bill
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edrummereasye
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 13, 2010 22:30:11 GMT -5
Subwoofer sound is not directional unless you are sitting next to the sub. If you crossovers are set on the sub and the pre/pro, the bass will sound like it's coming from your main speakers. If you can hear the bass, you sub is too loud. Bass is something that you feel rather than hear. If your subwoofer is directional, it's set too loud. This is all assuming your crossovers are set correctly. If they are not, you will be missing sound in your system or you will have duplicate sound coming from your sub and your speakers. So if you want 60hz, 70hz or 80hz. You set speakers and sub identically. 60hz-60hz or 70hz-70hz or 80hz-80hz or even 90hz-90hz. If anything was useful above that range, Dr. Hsu would have included it. You can ask Dr. Hsu questions on his forum about crossovers. He's a really nice guy. The man is the bible of subs. My bass player feels that bass should be heard...as does my kick drum foot. Sometimes, if you can *feel* it, it's too loud. The reality is, too loud is subjective, and some frequencies are meant to be felt...but human hearing is generally considered to be down to 20Hz...so you should be hearing bass...if not, then you're missing something, regardless of your crossovers. And I say again, Dr. Hsu has made subs that go past 90... Edit: And where are my blue stars?
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 13, 2010 22:35:34 GMT -5
In theory I agree with you. I would prefer to just open everything up and let the end user do whatever they want. I don't like the fact that auto manufacturers put limiters and lockouts on everything in the car. Give me an old car where I actually drive and where I do what I want with it. Unfortunately the reality we live in today is virtually no one wants to take responsability for their own actions. They want to blame everyone else and they want everyone else to pay for their mistakes. Now companies have to protect themselves and believe it or not, if a piece of our gear was to blow up someones speakers even though they may have set it up wrong. Someone would take it to the extreme. I can tell from speaking with so many of you that you feel the same way I do and like me, you would take responsability for your own actions. But it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. Lonnie, Are you saying your above thoughts (or Emotiva's) is the reasoning behind not offering a feature like the narrow band PEQ with the UMC-1? So the design of the UMC-1 is structured to keep it simple so no one will screw up and blame Emotiva? To design a prepro such as the UMC-1 with the mind set that the consumer is going to come after Emotiva for every little mistake they make seems a little odd to me to be quite honest. Bill I never mentioned the PEQ, the reasoning behing the graphic is completely different. What I am referring too is a system setup to use the crossovers and it switching to full range when put in direct mode. Can you imagine the emails and post that would come from that? "I have my crossovers set so why did it go full range and blow my speakers?" I can see where that could get out of hand in a hurry.
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 22:36:36 GMT -5
I have the LPF on my Onkyo 886 set to 120Hz due to a little research and suggestions from Chris at Audyssey as well as several other very knowledgable AVS members. Not being the most technical person the explanation was that using the 120Hz LPF setting assures that you will not lose any LFE information. I guess everyone will have a different take on this setting but from what I have read most suggest setting the LPF to 120Hz. If when using the 120Hz LPF setting you find your sub is more localized change the setting to 100Hz or 80Hz if really needed. Below is a link from a thread at AVS where member sdurani's posts explain the LPF setting very well (at least to me he does). It seems the only issue using the 120Hz setting for the LPF of the LFE is possible sub localization. www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=964791Since the LFE channel can contain information up to 120hz, that's where I would set the low pass filter. As mentioned before, the ONLY reason I would bring it back down to 100Hz or even 80Hz is if I started to localize the subwoofer. Otherwise, enjoy the entire contents of the LFE channel. Bill You got it Bill, and it is also my long time understanding. * By the way I'm using the same pre/pro as you. Also, low frequencies directionality is submissive at best; I bet most people (90%+) cannot tell 100 Hz, or even 120 Hz audio frequencies from where they're coming from. Furthermore, with Audyssey MultEQ XT higher filtering capability in the low bass, it is highly desirable to even set all your speakers' crossovers at 100 Hz. ...Which Jeff (pepar) from AVS just did in his own setup, and which I also did myself. And Chris from Audyssey seems to be happy too; no objection, to the contrary, full endorsement! You gotta take advantage of those filters in the Low Bass! [The only true rule is in common sense, perfect understanding, real world listening experiment, and the correct settings.]
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 22:37:25 GMT -5
edrummer.... I don't think anyone is saying the "reverse crossover" is good or bad. For many of us, it's a new concept (call us dumb if you want) and I think we're all trying to just understand the options. I don't think there is one answer....I think Dr Hsu is right and I think that Chris at Audyssey (CTO) is also right.
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Post by billmac on Aug 13, 2010 22:40:23 GMT -5
Bill....it's the american way. As lonnie said, no one takes any responsibility, it's someone else's fault and they call their favorite lawyer "make em pay.com" or equivalent. Trip on a sidewalk because you're talking on your cellphone....it's the stores fault that there was a rock on the sidewalk...pay up. gh, Well I take responsibility for my actions so that to me is not everyone . I just find it odd that in this discussion of the design and features of the UMC-1/XMC-1 and the fact that people today do not accept responsibility is a factor in Emotiva's design process. But maybe I am misinterpreting what was said by Lonnie. Bill
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 13, 2010 22:42:48 GMT -5
Bill....it's the american way. As lonnie said, no one takes any responsibility, it's someone else's fault and they call their favorite lawyer "make em pay.com" or equivalent. Trip on a sidewalk because you're talking on your cellphone....it's the stores fault that there was a rock on the sidewalk...pay up. Well what do you expect from a country in which public places had to put up signs that warned people that the area may contain cigarette smoke (this was before the ban placed on smoking)? Or the pizza place I used to go to that had a sign up on the wall that warned customers not to carry the pizza box sideways? Our whole system is conducive to that sort of idiocy.
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 13, 2010 22:45:14 GMT -5
Wait a second here! If you don't use a sub(s) in your system, then you reroute that LFE channel to the speakers that can handle it right? ...Which is usually your two front mains. Now, if you do use a sub(s) in your system, and that you set the LPF for the LFE Channel from your pre/pro let's say to 80 Hz, how do we know that the LFE information from 80 Hz to 120 Hz (if indeed contained in some movie audio soundtracks) will be rerouted to your main speakers? ...And to all of them? ...Even if you're using an 11.3-channel system setup? ...That's eleven (11) speakers! With LFE information! Am I dreaming? Am I correct? Is this what happens if I set my Onkyo pre/pro's LPF for the LFE Channel to 80 Hz? Is this the same with the UMC-1? XMC-1? Heck, I don't even know what's the feature's set on those Emo pre/pros! Maybe I'm just simply in the wrong thread or on the wrong track or out of my jurisdiction??? Those are valid questions, but Lonnie said the UMC-1 in particular is designed so that the signals over 80 hz are rerouted to the main speakers. That may not be true for an Onkyo or any other brand. I suggest if you are that worried about it, you buy a Bose system and then you won't have to worry about low frequencies. ;D
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 13, 2010 22:46:21 GMT -5
I agree with jamrock, I've never heard of it going from sub to mains. It's always been passing the sound from the mains to the sub. That be true, but that doesn't mean it can't be done and it isn't being done. If I understand Lonnie's post correctly, that is exactly what is happening.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 13, 2010 22:46:28 GMT -5
"Since the LFE channel can contain information up to 120hz, that's where I would set the low pass filter. As mentioned before, the ONLY reason I would bring it back down to 100Hz or even 80Hz is if I started to localize the subwoofer. Otherwise, enjoy the entire contents of the LFE channel'
I repeat my post #199. I trust experts with credentials.
By the way, here is something to consider. If a bloated sound, let's say +3db, is created at the frequencies between 80Hz - 120Hz, how is it adjusted and at the same time, maintain signal integrity below 80Hz or above 120Hz?
jamrock
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 13, 2010 22:50:03 GMT -5
Take this from one who knows enough to be extremely dangerous: I've never seen a base management diagram with any signal routing that crosses over from the LFE to the mains. It's always the other way - from the mains to the subwoofer. This is totally confusing. jamrock I bet you have and you may not even realize it. Most if not all processors have an "Enhanced Bass" feature if you are running full range speaker for your mains. This "Enhanced Bass" feature is not an EQ or bass boost. It is a summation of the LFE to the low frequency information of the main left and right speakers. In this way the LFE is directed back to the mains. The thing to remember is the system is using crossovers and not just low pass and high pass filters. Which means that where ever you set the crossover point, frequencies below the cutoff are directed one way and frequencies above the cutoff are directed a different way. Trust me on this, if the LFE was just a low pass filter with no way to redirect out of band energy to another point. Dolby and DTS would have people going nuts and sending them nasty letters all day long about the sound effects they were missing. ;D
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:02:08 GMT -5
Wait a second here! If you don't use a sub(s) in your system, then you reroute that LFE channel to the speakers that can handle it right? ...Which is usually your two front mains. Now, if you do use a sub(s) in your system, and that you set the LPF for the LFE Channel from your pre/pro let's say to 80 Hz, how do we know that the LFE information from 80 Hz to 120 Hz (if indeed contained in some movie audio soundtracks) will be rerouted to your main speakers? ...And to all of them? ...Even if you're using an 11.3-channel system setup? ...That's eleven (11) speakers! With LFE information! Am I dreaming? Am I correct? Is this what happens if I set my Onkyo pre/pro's LPF for the LFE Channel to 80 Hz? Is this the same with the UMC-1? XMC-1? Heck, I don't even know what's the feature's set on those Emo pre/pros! Maybe I'm just simply in the wrong thread or on the wrong track or out of my jurisdiction??? Those are valid questions, but Lonnie said the UMC-1 in particular is designed so that the signals over 80 hz are rerouted to the main speakers. That may not be true for an Onkyo or any other brand. I suggest if you are that worried about it, you buy a Bose system and then you won't have to worry about low frequencies. ;D Okie dokie! ;D
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