NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:07:40 GMT -5
Can anyone point me to a professional article or white paper where it is stated that the LFE (.1) info as in a 5.1 or 7.1 signal is low passed at 120Hz? jamrock Jamrock, it is a fact. Just check at Dolby's own website, Audioholics, and tons of other places. Just google "LFE". LFE information can contain up to 120 Hz audio frequencies. And talking with some movie pro recording sound mixers, they do use it.
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 23:12:21 GMT -5
Can anyone point me to a professional article or white paper where it is stated that the LFE (.1) info as in a 5.1 or 7.1 signal is low passed at 120Hz? jamrock Jamrock, it is a fact. Just check at Dolby's own website, Audioholics, and tons of other places. Just google "LFE". LFE information can contain up to 120 Hz audio frequencies. And talking with some movie pro recording sound mixers, they do use it. and from a routing standpoint, they want it to come from the sub or the .1 speaker(s).
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 13, 2010 23:12:24 GMT -5
In all due respect, I dont know that I get or appreciate your explanation. In Enhanced Bass, the frequencies for the sub is panned out into the right & left channels (speakers). Not a portion of the signal. In this scenario, no cross over is involved. the entire frequency is panned
This is similar to what is done when you create a wide center by panning the center channel frequency into the right & left fronts.
What was described before is chopping off (crude) a portion of the LFE signal (80 Hz - 120Hz) and sending it to the mains (I guess FR & FL).
If my mains are X/Oed at 80 Hz, then you are doubling the energy of the 80Hz - 120Hz frequencies in the mains. Why would that sound good or correct? And, how could you adjust that narrow band without affecting the frequencies above 120Hz and below 80Hz?
Please have patience with my ignorance!
jamrock
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:14:23 GMT -5
"Since the LFE channel can contain information up to 120hz, that's where I would set the low pass filter. As mentioned before, the ONLY reason I would bring it back down to 100Hz or even 80Hz is if I started to localize the subwoofer. Otherwise, enjoy the entire contents of the LFE channel' I repeat my post #199. I trust experts with credentials. By the way, here is something to consider. If a bloated sound, let's say +3db, is created at the frequencies between 80Hz - 120Hz, how is it adjusted and at the same time, maintain signal integrity below 80Hz or above 120Hz?jamrock That would be a mistake originating from the Studio recording/mixing engineer. ...Don't fret it!
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:20:13 GMT -5
Take this from one who knows enough to be extremely dangerous: I've never seen a base management diagram with any signal routing that crosses over from the LFE to the mains. It's always the other way - from the mains to the subwoofer. This is totally confusing. jamrock I bet you have and you may not even realize it. Most if not all processors have an "Enhanced Bass" feature if you are running full range speaker for your mains. This "Enhanced Bass" feature is not an EQ or bass boost. It is a summation of the LFE to the low frequency information of the main left and right speakers. In this way the LFE is directed back to the mains. The thing to remember is the system is using crossovers and not just low pass and high pass filters. Which means that where ever you set the crossover point, frequencies below the cutoff are directed one way and frequencies above the cutoff are directed a different way. Trust me on this, if the LFE was just a low pass filter with no way to redirect out of band energy to another point. Dolby and DTS would have people going nuts and sending them nasty letters all day long about the sound effects they were missing. ;D "Bass Boost", "Double Bass", "Bad Ass Enhancer", "LFE + Main"...; those are all VERY BAD ideas Lonnie! I'm surprise you even mentioned it! That is far from ACCURATE Bass! Just sayin'.
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Post by Captain Stubing on Aug 13, 2010 23:22:38 GMT -5
A couple of things. I am axiously awaiting the xmc-1. My comments are in reference to my LMC-1. I have my LMC-1 crossover set to 80hz on the front and center. My surrounds are set to 90hz, they are inwalls with 8" woofers bit 80hz creates vibration in the walls and or speakers when pushed by the DTS or THX demo before movies. 90hz removes the vibration. The surround backs are inwalls in the ceiling with 8" woofers as well. On the LMC-1, the surrounds all have to be set the same including the surround backs. All of my speakers are set to small.
My sub is set to 80hz, should I change it to 90hz inthe LMC-1 as well as the sub, both are at 80hz?
If you want more bass, by all means crank up you sub if that's what you are after. So I guess that means more kick drum...
One more thing. My vtf3-mk2 is set to 20% on the power dial. When the movie requires deep bass down to 16hz, the HSU delivers the thunder.
My energy bipolars haved 6" woofers. When my friends hear the bass, they ask how big the woofers are in my mains. I answer with 6 massive inches. The bass feels like it must be coming from the front speakers.
Get those Blue stars if you have Emotiva gear and don't already have them. After all, you guys earned them. It helps members identify Emotiva gear owners without having to ask. We don't need you to list your gear if you don't want to.
I was just curious if there were some members here with massive posts who never bother picking up any gear.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 13, 2010 23:23:10 GMT -5
In all due respect, I dont know that I get or appreciate your explanation. In Enhanced Bass, the frequencies for the sub is panned out into the right & left channels (speakers). Not a portion of the signal. In this scenario, no cross over is involved. the entire frequency is panned This is similar to what is done when you create a wide center by panning the center channel frequency into the right & left fronts. What was described before is chopping off (crude) a portion of the LFE signal (80 Hz - 120Hz) and sending it to the mains (I guess FR & FL). If my mains are X/Oed at 80 Hz, then you are doubling the energy of the 80Hz - 120Hz frequencies in the mains. Why would that sound good or correct? And, how could you adjust that narrow band without affecting the frequencies above 120Hz and below 80Hz? Please have patience with my ignorance! jamrock jamrock no problem, let me see if I can explain it a little better (please be patient with me as well because I suck at writing). When inEnhanced Bass mode, the LFE is sent to the Sub as well as added to the LF and RF signals. It isn't panned, but summed. I was using this as an example of how the LFE can be directed to the LF and RF. When you apply a crossover to the LFE signal, whatever frequency you select becomes the cutoff (although it is not a brick wall but a slope). Now let's use 80hz as an example. If you have your main speakers set to crossover at 80Hz or lower, then any of the LFE signal that is above 80Hz will be directed to the LF and RF. It is not doubling the bass at those frequencies, it is just re-directing what is called out of band energy to the LF and RF and adding it to whatever signal is already there. In this way you do not loose any of the signal information. I hope this helps.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:25:11 GMT -5
Jamrock, it is a fact. Just check at Dolby's own website, Audioholics, and tons of other places. Just google "LFE". LFE information can contain up to 120 Hz audio frequencies. And talking with some movie pro recording sound mixers, they do use it. and from a routing standpoint, they want it to come from the sub or the .1 speaker(s). The .1 channel, or the LFE channel' information, is usually coming from the subwoofer. The exception being that you DON'T have a subwoofer in your system; so in that case you can reroute that info to the speakers that can handle it best in your system, usually your two front mains (Front L & R speakers).
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Post by Captain Stubing on Aug 13, 2010 23:26:43 GMT -5
How about my situation Lonnie. Should I set my sub and LMC-1 crossovers to 90hz on the low pass instead of my current 80hz? Will I gain anything in my sub if I do this?
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 13, 2010 23:28:34 GMT -5
How about my situation Lonnie. Should I set my sub and LMC-1 crossovers to 90hz on the low pass instead of my current 80hz? Will I gain anything in my sub if I do this? Honestly I wouldn't be concerned about the surrounds. The ideal setup would be the sub and the mains crossed over at the same frequency.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Aug 13, 2010 23:29:07 GMT -5
Get those Blue stars if you have Emotiva gear and don't already have them. After all, you guys earned them. It helps members identify Emotiva gear owners without having to ask. We don't need you to list your gear if you don't want to. I was just curious if there were some members here with massive posts who never bother picking up any gear. Ok, who do I see about getting them?
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 23:30:46 GMT -5
set your sub to 120hz......set your other speakers to 80hz. I think I said that about 47 pages ago in this thread. The only reason not to do this is if your sub can't handle up to 120hz....but even then, I would choose to lose the content then to have it routed to my mains....but that's my personal choice.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 13, 2010 23:32:20 GMT -5
I bet you have and you may not even realize it. Most if not all processors have an "Enhanced Bass" feature if you are running full range speaker for your mains. This "Enhanced Bass" feature is not an EQ or bass boost. It is a summation of the LFE to the low frequency information of the main left and right speakers. In this way the LFE is directed back to the mains. The thing to remember is the system is using crossovers and not just low pass and high pass filters. Which means that where ever you set the crossover point, frequencies below the cutoff are directed one way and frequencies above the cutoff are directed a different way. Trust me on this, if the LFE was just a low pass filter with no way to redirect out of band energy to another point. Dolby and DTS would have people going nuts and sending them nasty letters all day long about the sound effects they were missing. ;D "Bass Boost", "Double Bass", "Bad Ass Enhancer", "LFE + Main"...; those are all VERY BAD ideas Lonnie! I'm surprise you even mentioned it! That is far from ACCURATE Bass! Just sayin'. I never commented on accuracy ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That would be a personal preferrence. ;D ;D ;D
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:35:36 GMT -5
A couple of things. I am axiously awaiting the xmc-1. My comments are in reference to my LMC-1. I have my LMC-1 crossover set to 80hz on the front and center. My surrounds are set to 90hz, they are inwalls with 8" woofers bit 80hz creates vibration in the walls and or speakers when pushed by the DTS or THX demo before movies. 90hz removes the vibration. The surround backs are inwalls in the ceiling with 8" woofers as well. On the LMC-1, the surrounds all have to be set the same including the surround backs. All of my speakers are set to small. My sub is set to 80hz, should I change it to 90hz inthe LMC-1 as well as the sub, both are at 80hz?If you want more bass, by all means crank up you sub if that's what you are after. So I guess that means more kick drum... One more thing. My vtf3-mk2 is set to 20% on the power dial. When the movie requires deep bass down to 16hz, the HSU delivers the thunder. My energy bipolars haved 6" woofers. When my friends hear the bass, they ask how big the woofers are in my mains. I answer with 6 massive inches. The bass feels like it must be coming from the front speakers. Get those Blue stars if you have Emotiva gear and don't already have them. After all, you guys earned them. It helps members identify Emotiva gear owners without having to ask. We don't need you to list your gear if you don't want to. I was just curious if there were some members here with massive posts who never bother picking up any gear. Set your sub's Low pass Filter to "Bypass", or if not avail, to its Highest Position on the rotary knob. In your pre/pro, set the x-over at 90 Hz, that's mighty fine. What most likely is happening is that you are Cascading the x-overs; as doubling up the natural descent (slope) of your HSU sub's Low Pass Filter. Ie.; If your HSU sub has a low pass filter of 24 dB per octave, you now just made it a 48 dB per octave LPF. If it's an 18 dB LPF, it then becomes a 36 dB LPF, and so on. What that means? It could be bad, but it could also not be as bad as it seems. ...Too many variables are in play, and it would be tough to determine at the end. But usually, it's a NO NO recommendation. * And stop wondering about others' blue stars and all that crap!
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 23:37:42 GMT -5
The only time to use extended bass is when playing heavy rock to a room full of heavily inebriated folks who may or may not be on drugs.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:49:46 GMT -5
How about my situation Lonnie. Should I set my sub and LMC-1 crossovers to 90hz on the low pass instead of my current 80hz? Will I gain anything in my sub if I do this? Honestly I wouldn't be concerned about the surrounds. The ideal setup would be the sub and the mains crossed over at the same frequency. I disagree. Best is to set the LPF on your sub to "Bypass" or its highest position, and set the speakers' x-overs in the pre/pro to the natural in-room response to its -3 db point. But as a good general rule of thumb (with drivers having a 6" diameter cone or more), 80 Hz is the right x-over choice. With an 8" driver, 60 Hz is a nice x-over choice. With a smaller diameter driver like 5" for example, I would set the x-over at 100 Hz.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 13, 2010 23:50:39 GMT -5
Jamrock, it is a fact. Just check at Dolby's own website, Audioholics, and tons of other places. Just google "LFE".
LFE information can contain up to 120 Hz audio frequencies. And talking with some movie pro recording sound mixers, they do use it"
You are not addressing my question. I am fully aware that you can put any signal any where you want as long as the speaker can play that signal. I've read reviews where it was suggested to cross over the sub above 120Hz, because the mains were measured at more than -6db at 150Hz. However, in all scenarios, the sub and the mains were X/Oed at the same frequency.
Nevertheless, I'll take up your challenge and check the referrences you've cited. I peruse Audioholics site daily and can't recall such a pronouncement. ..................................................................................................................................................
"That would be a mistake originating from the Studio recording/mixing engineer. ...Don't fret it!"
What is mixed into a source material (recording) is completely different from how you manipulate that signal in your pre/pro. I am not aware of any technology that can "tell' a pre/pro to send a portion of a signal designated for a certsain channel, to go to another channel. It would have to mixed this way on the disc.
In other words, you're telling me that if a disc is encoded in DTS HD/MA (5.1) There is directives embedded in the signal to direct the pre/pro to send the frequency of 80Hz - 120Hz in the LFE to the mains, but retain 20Hz - 80Hz? Never heard of that! But I'll will be doing my research. Thanx for the response anyways.
jamrock
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:53:45 GMT -5
"Bass Boost", "Double Bass", "Bad Ass Enhancer", "LFE + Main"...; those are all VERY BAD ideas Lonnie! I'm surprise you even mentioned it! That is far from ACCURATE Bass! Just sayin'. I never commented on accuracy ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That would be a personal preferrence. ;D ;D ;D Gotcha!
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 13, 2010 23:56:15 GMT -5
The only time to use extended bass is when playing heavy rock to a room full of heavily inebriated folks who may or may not be on drugs. ...Or when you don't know better! ;D
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 0:18:24 GMT -5
Jamrock, it is a fact. Just check at Dolby's own website, Audioholics, and tons of other places. Just google "LFE". LFE information can contain up to 120 Hz audio frequencies. And talking with some movie pro recording sound mixers, they do use it" You are not addressing my question. I am fully aware that you can put any signal any where you want as long as the speaker can play that signal. I've read reviews where it was suggested to cross over the sub above 120Hz, because the mains were measured at more than -6db at 150Hz. However, in all scenarios, the sub and the mains were X/Oed at the same frequency. Nevertheless, I'll take up your challenge and check the referrences you've cited. I peruse Audioholics site daily and can't recall such a pronouncement. .................................................................................................................................................. "That would be a mistake originating from the Studio recording/mixing engineer. ...Don't fret it!" What is mixed into a source material (recording) is completely different from how you manipulate that signal in your pre/pro. I am not aware of any technology that can "tell' a pre/pro to send a portion of a signal designated for a certsain channel, to go to another channel. It would have to mixed this way on the disc. In other words, you're telling me that if a disc is encoded in DTS HD/MA (5.1) There is directives embedded in the signal to direct the pre/pro to send the frequency of 80Hz - 120Hz in the LFE to the mains, but retain 20Hz - 80Hz? Never heard of that! But I'll will be doing my research. Thanx for the response anyways. jamrock Sorry Jamrock, I might misunderstood your point. * Setting both your sub LPF (from the sub control itself on the back) and speakers' x-overs to the exact same frequency point, you'll end up with cascading x-overs. ...Doubling the already determined slope (dB per octave) from your subwoofer. So it will fall like a brick, straight down! - If you go to Audioholics, you'll have to check in past articles concerning the "Bass Management", "Subwoofers", and "LFE". Also, very good articles are at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity. Do a Search from the appropriate column. ................................................................................... All I really want is to have the same audio recording mix from the engineer into my own system at home without any added and extraneous or frivolous manipulations from my pre/pro. I WANT the EXACT same thing that the sound mixer heard when he was listening in his own studio from his own speakers. I wannit ALL! ;D I know it's impossible, but that's what I try to aim for.
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