edrummereasye
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 0:40:15 GMT -5
In all due respect, I dont know that I get or appreciate your explanation. In Enhanced Bass, the frequencies for the sub is panned out into the right & left channels (speakers). Not a portion of the signal. In this scenario, no cross over is involved. the entire frequency is panned This is similar to what is done when you create a wide center by panning the center channel frequency into the right & left fronts. What was described before is chopping off (crude) a portion of the LFE signal (80 Hz - 120Hz) and sending it to the mains (I guess FR & FL). If my mains are X/Oed at 80 Hz, then you are doubling the energy of the 80Hz - 120Hz frequencies in the mains. Why would that sound good or correct? And, how could you adjust that narrow band without affecting the frequencies above 120Hz and below 80Hz? Please have patience with my ignorance! jamrock I don't think that's right...if your mains are crossed at 80, then the portion of the '5' in 5.1 that is below 80 goes to the sub, and the portion of the '5' that is above 80 goes to the mains (well, mains meaning front L/R/C and surround L/R). What Lonnie is talking about is the '.1'; when you set the Sub (really, 'LFE') crossover to 80, then the portion of the '.1' that is above 80 goes to the mains, and the portion of the '.1' channel that is below 80 goes to the sub. There's no doubling of 80-120 Hz, because the '.1' or LFE channel contains different information than the other channels.
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edrummereasye
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"This aggression will not stand, man!"
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 0:48:45 GMT -5
................................................................................... All I really want is to have the same audio recording mix from the engineer into my own system at home without any added and extraneous or frivolous manipulations from my pre/pro. I WANT the EXACT same thing that the sound mixer heard when he was listening in his own studio from his own speakers. I wannit ALL! ;D I know it's impossible, but that's what I try to aim for. LOL, you would have to re-create his room, with his studio monitors, listening position, and the exact temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure at the time, as well as adjust your ears to the same amount of hearing loss, and possibly smoke his weed as well!!! ;D
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 0:55:50 GMT -5
................................................................................... All I really want is to have the same audio recording mix from the engineer into my own system at home without any added and extraneous or frivolous manipulations from my pre/pro. I WANT the EXACT same thing that the sound mixer heard when he was listening in his own studio from his own speakers. I wannit ALL! ;D I know it's impossible, but that's what I try to aim for. LOL, you would have to re-create his room, with his studio monitors, listening position, and the exact temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure at the time, as well as adjust your ears to the same amount of hearing loss, and possibly smoke his weed as well!!! ;D That'd be cool to know, and experiment too! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 1:16:28 GMT -5
To clear up some confusion on previous posts.
..........There is no purpose for the crossover dial on the rear of a new sub model for an up to date 5.1 system. The crossover functions are now solely handled by the crossover controls on the AVR Receiver or Pre-Pro/HT Processor, period. A new single sub needs only a single RCA/LXR input, gain control and phase switch. Those that do have a crossover dial on the sub (as most still do for no reason in 95% of current setups) need to use either the bypass switch if included or otherwise set the crossover dial to its max setting. The sole purpose of the crossover functions on the rear of a sub are for old 5.1 systems or a 2.1 system with no bass management in the processor. In other words forget about the crossover on the back of the sub, we only use the crossover in a newer processor. For example, in using a sub with small bookshelf speakers that are down 3dB's at 100Hz (or higher) and no base management (crossovers) on the receiver or preamp, one would use the high level speaker in and outs to route the signal thru the sub and on to the bookshelf speakers. This is an example of why a sub would need a crossover dial that goes above the standard 80Hz setting. Thus most subs (unlike the HSU that Cpt Stubing mentions) have a crossover setting up to about 150Hz to accommodate very small satellite speakers. I see too many friends setting crossover controls on both the sub and the processor (called cascading filters). ..........The average human ear can only feel (not hear) bass from 20Hz and down. However, we can hear bass from 20Hz and up. 80Hz is the average frequency at which we can determine the location of the bass signal. From 80Hz and down we cannot determine the location of the bass. From 80Hz and up we can determine the location of the bass. Of course there are rare exceptions to these general rules such as Super-Canucks like LOTR. ;D Note that we are talking here about the pure fundamental frequency. One can hear or locate the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, etc. of bass notes if they are above 20Hz or 80Hz as applicable to the specific tones.
..........The official purpose of the LFE channel signal is to add special effects sounds to the soundtrack at 10dB's above the regular soundtrack. Normally this extra 10dB level is automatically added and not necessary for us folks to turn up the LFE setting on our processor even if it has this control as my Sony does. It is handled automatically in the processing of the signal by the source components. There is suppose to be a 120Hz brick wall for the LFE signal. (From my reading, I understand on rare occasions some recording engineers might exceed this). Thus it makes sense that this signal does not go up to 120Hz at full volume but would begin to roll off far before 120Hz. The ideal roll of point would most likely be at about 50-60Hz but no more than 80Hz or so to make the effect sound natural. Therefore it is likely that the sub would usually receive steeply diminishing signals above 80Hz in the LFE channel. Presuming your processor allows one to separately control the low pass of the LFE signal from the low pass from the main channels to the sub, setting the LFE at 120Hz and the low bass to the sub at 80Hz (lower or higher as appropriate for ones speakers) would be OK. However, my concern would be if there were LFE signals in the 80-120Hz range of significantly audible gain, that one might be able to locate from the sub, especially if one had a single sub other than at the front the room. My sub, by room space demands, is in the right rear corner of my room adjacent to the sofa. In my case (with the XMC-1), I'll probably keep the LFE low pass more in the 80Hz range. If what edrummereasye says: "..........What Lonnie is talking about is the '.1'; when you set the Sub (really, 'LFE') crossover to 80, then the portion of the '.1' that is above 80 goes to the mains, and the portion of the '.1' channel that is below 80 goes to the sub.........." is correct, then that should be perfect for those with the UMC-1, XMC-1 or the ZMC-1 (Oh whoops, I wasn't suppose to mention the ZMC-1).
Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep.
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edrummereasye
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"This aggression will not stand, man!"
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 1:17:35 GMT -5
If you want more bass, by all means crank up you sub if that's what you are after. So I guess that means more kick drum... I think you misunderstand...to me, you have to crank it up to "feel" it...less is more...don't have to crank it up to hear bass... All is subject to the limitations of one's hearing though...if my ears are down 3db at 22 Hz, and yours aren't, then yeah, I need 3 db more volume to hear a 22 Hz kick drum at the same level as you...but, I still think I hear it at a lower volume than I feel it, usually if I feel it, it's loud, or I'm at a concert...(though 22 Hz maybe a bad example, cause when you get below threshold of hearing, then all you can do is feel it). That's for kick drums, now explosions and such, if you're listening to a movie at or near reference volume, then it's a "hear and feel" type of thing. Again, subject to one's ears, I guess...and maybe one's butt ;D Now I'm going to have to get out the Test Tone CD and check my hearing...27 years behind a drumset, myriad Dead/Furthur shows, the local punk shows, my one guitarist who was half-deaf and used to put his amp on 12...oh, and that one Sisters of Mercy gig where I was WAY too close to the amps...this is going to be ugly...
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edrummereasye
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"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 1:27:23 GMT -5
LOL, you would have to re-create his room, with his studio monitors, listening position, and the exact temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure at the time, as well as adjust your ears to the same amount of hearing loss, and possibly smoke his weed as well!!! ;D That'd be cool to know, and experiment too! ;D LOL...one other thing, and I am by no means widely experienced...but, for music, every time I have been in the studio, we listened to it on the studio monitors, got a mix everyone was happy with, and then, often spent a few days listening to it at home, on boomboxes, and crappy car stereos, to get a feel for what the average person might hear, or the average person with a decent home and crappy car system, or vice versa...and if we were lucky, we had the $$$ to go back and tweak it a little. After that was done, we sent it out for mastering... ...and all in all, I don't know that I've ever heard it sound like it did in the studio monitors, though I admit, I could probably be trying a lot harder in terms of my equipment, room, calibration, etc. Or, maybe I just need to "experiment" more ;D
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edrummereasye
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"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 1:30:40 GMT -5
. . . Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep. Nope, good stuff there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 4:00:15 GMT -5
Now I'm going to have to get out the Test Tone CD and check my hearing...27 years behind a drumset, myriad Dead/Furthur shows, the local punk shows, my one guitarist who was half-deaf and used to put his amp on 12...oh, and that one Sisters of Mercy gig where I was WAY too close to the amps...this is going to be ugly... I wouldn't worry too much. Hell, I had to listen to my Mom yelling at concert levels for many years and later I could still clearly hear my mother-in-law. When I took a US ARMY flight physical the tester made me take the test a second time since he thought I might be somehow cheating. I re-tested the same and he said I had the best high frequency hearing he had ever tested. (I didn't tell him what planet I was from). I'm now 65 and can still hear the 16K tone on several of my test CD's. Unfortunately I am virtually tone deaf in the 165-255Hz range. (That is the fundamental frequency range of my ex-wife's voice).
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 4:45:32 GMT -5
. . . Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep. Nope, good stuff there. Of course, he just repeated what I've been saying for the last 48 hours or so! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 5:07:10 GMT -5
Of course, he just repeated what I've been saying for the last 48 hours or so! ;D I'm sorry, I never bother reading your posts. ;D ;D ;D
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 14, 2010 5:24:28 GMT -5
.... or the ZMC-1 (Oh whoops, I wasn't suppose to mention the ZMC-1). He! I saw that! ZMC-1! ZMC-1!Too late! My sig is adapted already!
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:03:12 GMT -5
True, but the fact remains that the LFE channel contains audio information up to 120 Hz, and to not set your pre/pro at that frequency for the LPF of the LFE is simply dismissing the info that some movie recording engineers had specially put on that channel, and up to that audio frequency! * By the way, on your subwoofer itself, the correct setting for the Low Pass Filter is "Bypass", or if not vailable, its highest position on its rotary knob. ~ It ain't a question of 'missing or not missing what's in there', it's simply the correct setting. ...And you won't miss a thing either! OK, I must first say that I have not had time to read through the entire thread, so if my response is off topic, I'm sorry. The algorithms that set the crossovers and signal routing are actually quite sofisticated. Let's say you set the low pass to 80hz and your mains to 80hz, it will take any of the LFE signal that is higher than the cutoff frequency and move it to the mains so you aren't missing anything. Setting the LFE crossover to a frequency below 120 is really not a problem. Great! So it does what I hoped - excellent. However, what about an option to have the LFE stuff that is sent to the mains sent to all fronts (including centre) and indeed to all speakers? LFE is only 1 channel that presumably is supposed to sound like it is coming from everywhere, so with suitably capable surrounds, I would think it would make sense to send it to all of the non-sub speakers?
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:17:50 GMT -5
"On a side note, is your name really jamrock? You sign jamrock at the end of every post. Just curious" Jamrock is my forum moniker. However, it represents who I am, 'Sweet but tough' I reserve the right to screw up my audio and video as much as I want. I don't look to anyone for validation. I listen with my own ears and see with my own eyes. If boomy bass sounds good to me, then my system will be tuned to produce boomy bass. If orange looks red to me, then orange is what it will be. I reserve the right to make myself as happy as I can, no matter how imperfectly that is accomplished. What I ask for, is that the audio manufacturers such as Emotiva, sells me a properly constructed product. Once I pay for it, I'll do whatever I want with it. Don't tell me that because you believe that I will screw it up or don't know how to get the best out of it, you will limit my options. This is totally not acceptable. By the way, I have a UPA-7, UPA-2, 2 Ultra 12 subs and interconnects waiting for the UMC-1. I want my blue stars! jamrock In theory I agree with you. I would prefer to just open everything up and let the end user do whatever they want. I don't like the fact that auto manufacturers put limiters and lockouts on everything in the car. Give me an old car where I actually drive and where I do what I want with it. Unfortunately the reality we live in today is virtually no one wants to take responsability for their own actions. They want to blame everyone else and they want everyone else to pay for their mistakes. Now companies have to protect themselves and believe it or not, if a piece of our gear was to blow up someones speakers even though they may have set it up wrong. Someone would take it to the extreme. I can tell from speaking with so many of you that you feel the same way I do and like me, you would take responsability for your own actions. But it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. I propose a "pro firmware". If we want more options opened up, we sign a waiver stating that we understand we have a "chainsaw" instead of "kiddies scissors" and if we blow something up due to silly settings it's our own problem. They do this in the computer world - if you choose to overclock, you lose the warranty on your CPU.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:24:41 GMT -5
I have a HSU VTF-3 MK2. The crossover only goes up to 90hz. At the time, the VTF-3 MK2 was the best sub HSU makes. The sub is known throughout the industry as pretty much the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's good for me because I will never need a new subwoofer until the amp dies. Considering all this and Dr. Hsu's Phd from MIT, I disagree with the thought of turning up the crossover to 120hz. Dr. Hsu's specialty has always been subs and if there was a benefit to higher hz, he would have it. HSU has some 2K subs now, I'm not sure how high the crossover goes but that my two cents. 90hz is all you could ever need. Correction, HSU has a $4,200 subwoofer. Bypassable 24 dB/Oct, continuously variable 30 - 90 Hz low pass filter. Dr. sub says 90hz is all you need. Indeed I started all this talk after setting my LFE XO to 90 and having it sound better as my sub (I thought, and at the time it was) only goes (nicely) to 90Hz. However, I was just reading the specs more closely on Rythmik's site and I dicsovered if I switch a switch on the sub it will extend the upper end out to 200Hz @ -3db. I am going to try that now. I just wish I had the new FW and I would then spend some time with REW, I don't want to do that twice, usually when I get out the mic/PC I spend the whole day testing so only want to do it once.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:27:56 GMT -5
Take this from one who knows enough to be extremely dangerous: I've never seen a base management diagram with any signal routing that crosses over from the LFE to the mains. It's always the other way - from the mains to the subwoofer. This is totally confusing. jamrock IMO I think this is a brilliant feature, the processor should do BOTH so you get all drivers playing what they do best. In fact, to take this further - you could have multiple sub outputs and both HP and LP filters for each - that way you could have e.g. 5 to 15Hz going to a transducer, 15 to 40Hz to a big-ass sub and 40 to 80 or 90 to a "mid bass" sub or whatever. ;D
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:32:30 GMT -5
hmmm....I've learned something new...I always though that the sound would be lost. Since 80-120hz is directionally locateable sound, one has to wonder what the audio engineer planned. Did he/she want the sound to come directionally from your sub, wherever it is....or did he/she want it to come from your mains? But if he/she wanted it to come directionally from your mains, why didn't he/she just mix it there in the first place. Which leads to the logical (and that may have little meaning) reason that LFE content is generally limited to 80hz, even though it's specified to 120hz. An audio purist really has a predicament....which speaker gets the 80-120hz LFE.....My vote would be give it to the sub, if it can handle it.....which coincidentally is what I do...and if my sub can't handle it, I just lose the content. Question: Do studios have a sub per other channel? If they did and those subs can do up to 120Hz, if they all play this "80 to 120Hz content" then it would still be pretty directionless - or indeed if the studio has a sub front and rear, each side or 4 walls etc. If you have a single sub fairly close to centre on the front wall, that 90-120 content would probably appear to be coming from the front and not be overly-locatable. The problem would be where you have a single sub in a corner or off to one side I think. I wonder if LCS or one of the other mods could maybe move this side-thread to its own topic if that would be useful?
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 6:35:25 GMT -5
hmmm....I've learned something new...I always though that the sound would be lost. Since 80-120hz is directionally locateable sound, one has to wonder what the audio engineer planned. Did he/she want the sound to come directionally from your sub, wherever it is....or did he/she want it to come from your mains? But if he/she wanted it to come directionally from your mains, why didn't he/she just mix it there in the first place. Which leads to the logical (and that may have little meaning) reason that LFE content is generally limited to 80hz, even though it's specified to 120hz. An audio purist really has a predicament....which speaker gets the 80-120hz LFE.....My vote would be give it to the sub, if it can handle it.....which coincidentally is what I do...and if my sub can't handle it, I just lose the content. For up to 120Hz I agree - however, we were also talking that the newer HD audio formats are specifying a full-range LFE channel (Well I suppose to should be renamed "DEC" (dedicated effects channel), so wouldn't it be nice to be ready for that? Perhaps it gives the audio engineers an easy way to add an overall effect without having to mix it into potentially 7 other channels? They can just encode e.g. a high-frequency lightning strike into the .1 and have it appear all-around? (Just thinking out loud here).
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 14, 2010 7:01:54 GMT -5
Sorry about the multiple posts in a row but there was so much to comment on - the fun of different time zones!
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 14, 2010 7:58:44 GMT -5
To Lonnie and all the other very knowledgeable forum members who took the time and patience to educate me on base management, you have my deepest gratitude. I hope that you were not offended by my obstinate insistence in getting everything explained as clearly as possible to my level of understanding. I truly learned something - Out Of Band Energy in the LFE and how it is handled.
One caveat. I'm a little bit more dangerous now. So, don't feel too comfortable.
jamrock
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Post by srrndhound on Aug 14, 2010 8:16:43 GMT -5
To Lonnie and all the other very knowledgeable forum members who took the time and patience to educate me on base management, you have my deepest gratitude. Now that the tough stuff is well in hand, we can work on the simpler things: It's bass management. ;D
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