NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 15:35:01 GMT -5
Of course, he just repeated what I've been saying for the last 48 hours or so! ;D I'm sorry, I never bother reading your posts. ;D ;D ;D But you did read that one though! ;D ___________________________ * I just finished reading this entire thread! ...I feel better than James Brown! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 15:40:19 GMT -5
There is NO X-overs in the Subwoofer itself, only a Low Pass Filter, and in some cases also a High Pass Filter. A Crossover and a Low Pass Filter are two different things, so was I told by the supposedly experts. I'm sorry. I'm sort of sloppy in my choice of terms I guess. I use the general word crossover many times when I should say low or high pass filter. Maybe I should say half crossover. I presumed folks knew what I meant. However, when one is using the sub to split the full range signal from the main left and right channels in a 2.1 system thru the high level in/outs I guess it would then be considered a crossover and some of the dials on the back of subs are actually marked as crossover or low pass crossover. Also, the original purpose of the LFE channel was for movies and was limited to 120Hz (as I have quoted from official sources). It was never intended for full range content. Yes, as I mentioned in one of my posts above, some recording engineers mistakenly add some full range signals to the LFE channel.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 15:43:57 GMT -5
^ That is absolutely fine Chuck, we all use these terms, all of us, and very often too. * The supposedly expert people were/are from AVS! As for the LFE channel, some studios (like Chesky for example) use it as a full range channel, but with a definite goal in mind for their multichannel SACDs. Also some other studios for some other reasons more or less valuable... Even DTS has in the past done that. Anyway, not important for us here in our actual main interest right?
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 15:54:20 GMT -5
To Lonnie and all the other very knowledgeable forum members who took the time and patience to educate me on base management, you have my deepest gratitude. Now that the tough stuff is well in hand, we can work on the simpler things: It's bass management. ;D Good one Roger! ;D * How's the management at Dolby Labs nowadays? ...Still in touch with them? You must I presume.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 16:00:03 GMT -5
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 16:21:39 GMT -5
Touche! ...But you also did bring it up, sooo... ...And ty for that link (could be very 'usefuelo'* for people like yourself)! * To fuel further useful discussions (works great in Mexico city, when speaking to people on the street in Spanish about proper bass management).
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 14, 2010 20:56:25 GMT -5
Think about this for moment. 31, 63 and 125 are set at 1 octave intervals. The Q on the EQ bands for the bass is 1, which means it affects 1 ocatave above and below the center frequency. So those three bands will actually affect and control frequencies from 15.5 to 250hz. So the entire band is covered. WoW! I'm surprise to read this! I've been using Graphic EQs since the 60s and I gave them up a long time ago as they do way more harm than good. Graphic EQs are now obsolete in my book. You want at the very least a digital Parametric one (PEQ) where you have narrower bands (more of them, like 30, and preferably 20 of them below 250 Hz) and with adjustable Q. But that's just my personal opinion. * Actually I much prefer FIR or IIR filters, or a combination of these two. ...And with Time domain (secondary acoustic reflections). FIR = Finite Impulse Response IIR = Infinite Impulse Response ~ About 3D Remapping (Trinnov)? ...Horizontal and Vertical axis. Also with Time domain (delayed sound from walls, floor(s) and ceiling(s)). By the time I took care of all those delayed sounds, I wonder if I'd ever get to listen to any music?
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 22:04:49 GMT -5
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 14, 2010 22:20:02 GMT -5
WoW! I'm surprise to read this! I've been using Graphic EQs since the 60s and I gave them up a long time ago as they do way more harm than good. Graphic EQs are now obsolete in my book. You want at the very least a digital Parametric one (PEQ) where you have narrower bands (more of them, like 30, and preferably 20 of them below 250 Hz) and with adjustable Q. But that's just my personal opinion. * Actually I much prefer FIR or IIR filters, or a combination of these two. ...And with Time domain (secondary acoustic reflections). FIR = Finite Impulse Response IIR = Infinite Impulse Response ~ About 3D Remapping (Trinnov)? ...Horizontal and Vertical axis. Also with Time domain (delayed sound from walls, floor(s) and ceiling(s)). By the time I took care of all those delayed sounds, I wonder if I'd ever get to listen to any music? Don't worry about it; just use some wall's diffusers, acoustic room' reflectors, bass traps, 4" thick foam around your speakers and front screen, sound absorptive & decorative panels spreaded across the front of your room, and in the back too for good measure, some anti-reflective sound material in the ceiling from the front of your room, and a good thick carpet on your floor; then get a Parametric Sub-EQ with at least two outputs, then run your Automatic Room Calibration and EQ system from your pre/pro or receiver with special attention on the microphone positions, try to use at least 48 mic positions to make sure you have a good coverage of the listening's positions, make sure too that your chairs or couches are reclyned with their headsets back down, stay away from the back wall and side walls, and you should be just fine. ...And if you have access to a PC that would help too as you can run a program like REW, with demonstratives colorful graphs that are very useful at analysing, remeasuring, calculating, adding, dividing, substracting, multiplying, remapping, and find out the root square of your room and even your own body, so you can compensate for its mass being present in the room when listening to the final results. Hope this put you on the right track! ...I know it did for me. And when you're all done, let's say in a year or two, come back right here for your second set of instructions. There are 16 sets of instructions all together! Oh! Almost forgot, when you're ready to listen to the final result, do it in the nude, as clothes can affect the sound results by absorbing it. Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer.
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topcat
Emo VIPs
A Dream Come True
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Post by topcat on Aug 15, 2010 10:22:23 GMT -5
I agree with jamrock, I've never heard of it going from sub to mains. It's always been passing the sound from the mains to the sub. Not directed at the Captain in particular, but the few posts up to and including that one... What does it matter? Or, put another way, we've heard of it now. And, frankly, why not? If you don't like it, or if I don't like it in a minute when I get downstairs, then set the LFE Crossover in your UMC to 120. I think it's a good thing that you can send it to the mains...especially as it's "directionally locatable"...the sub is for stuff that's not, right? And why is everyone acting like doing something innovative is a bad thing? Or is everyone? Also, Dr. Hsu had a heavy hand in designing my Outlaw LFM-1...and I'm pretty sure that the dial on the back goes higher than 90. I have the HSU VTF-3 MK3 and indeed the dial on the back goes only to 90 and does the printed spec in the manual. This does not, to me, show that Lonnie's explanation is wrong. Maybe something in his design of the UMC-1 base management is different than DR Hsu thinking.....whatever. My point is strictly to indicate that YES the crossover maxes out at 90. Thomas
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 15, 2010 11:34:12 GMT -5
So you set the control on the sub to 90, set your LFE XO at 80 or 90 in the UMC-1 and anything over that goes to the mains. Sorted.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Aug 15, 2010 18:58:07 GMT -5
Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer. I'll take the reduced audio quality as a trade off for the naked woman with smooth skin, thank you.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 15, 2010 19:09:49 GMT -5
Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer. I'll take the reduced audio quality as a trade off for the naked woman with smooth skin, thank you. Hey Mark, about time someone appreciate life from the bright side of the street!
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 15, 2010 21:36:47 GMT -5
Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer. I'll take the reduced audio quality as a trade off for the naked woman with smooth skin, thank you. You *so* read my mind... ;D
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 15, 2010 21:48:57 GMT -5
By the time I took care of all those delayed sounds, I wonder if I'd ever get to listen to any music? Don't worry about it; just use some wall's diffusers, acoustic room' reflectors, bass traps, 4" thick foam around your speakers and front screen, sound absorptive & decorative panels spreaded across the front of your room, and in the back too for good measure, some anti-reflective sound material in the ceiling from the front of your room, and a good thick carpet on your floor; then get a Parametric Sub-EQ with at least two outputs, then run your Automatic Room Calibration and EQ system from your pre/pro or receiver with special attention on the microphone positions, try to use at least 48 mic positions to make sure you have a good coverage of the listening's positions, make sure too that your chairs or couches are reclyned with their headsets back down, stay away from the back wall and side walls, and you should be just fine. ...And if you have access to a PC that would help too as you can run a program like REW, with demonstratives colorful graphs that are very useful at analysing, remeasuring, calculating, adding, dividing, substracting, multiplying, remapping, and find out the root square of your room and even your own body, so you can compensate for its mass being present in the room when listening to the final results. Hope this put you on the right track! ...I know it did for me. And when you're all done, let's say in a year or two, come back right here for your second set of instructions. There are 16 sets of instructions all together! Oh! Almost forgot, when you're ready to listen to the final result, do it in the nude, as clothes can affect the sound results by absorbing it. Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer. I did all that ages ago...the result was horrible!!! Then I realized, I left the speaker grilles on...silly wabbit. So I took them off, sat down again to listen...the dog walked into the room, and messed up my whole soundstage, what with that huge hole where her fur was absorbing the low end of the high end of the middle of the bottom of the top of the side of the middle of the high end of the low end of the mid-hi low frequencies. I was at a loss, so I cracked a beer and pondered my next step. One six-pack later, I had the mains 6" from each ear, which was a bit uncomfortable, doumbek-shaped synthetic marble beasts that they are, BUT... JERRY GARCIA WAS IN MY LIVING ROOM!!! Which was funny, because I had moved the speakers into the dining area by then, and that's where Bobby and the other guys were...well, Mickey Hart kept ducking out to make sandwiches, but all in all, I was happy! Couldn't really tell you how it sounded, but it was a great setlist, I remember that...
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 15, 2010 22:00:15 GMT -5
Not directed at the Captain in particular, but the few posts up to and including that one... What does it matter? Or, put another way, we've heard of it now. And, frankly, why not? If you don't like it, or if I don't like it in a minute when I get downstairs, then set the LFE Crossover in your UMC to 120. I think it's a good thing that you can send it to the mains...especially as it's "directionally locatable"...the sub is for stuff that's not, right? And why is everyone acting like doing something innovative is a bad thing? Or is everyone? Also, Dr. Hsu had a heavy hand in designing my Outlaw LFM-1...and I'm pretty sure that the dial on the back goes higher than 90. I have the HSU VTF-3 MK3 and indeed the dial on the back goes only to 90 and does the printed spec in the manual. This does not, to me, show that Lonnie's explanation is wrong. Maybe something in his design of the UMC-1 base management is different than DR Hsu thinking.....whatever. My point is strictly to indicate that YES the crossover maxes out at 90. Thomas I was extremely confused by your post at first...but I think I figured it out! In the post you quoted, I wasn't saying that I doubted the Captain's word that the dial on the back of his sub stopped at 90...not in the least...what I meant was, I was pretty sure the dial on my sub went past 90 (I was in my office at the time, which is upstairs...the sub in question was in the living room, downstairs...and I was too lazy to check while posting...but I since have, and it actually goes all the way to 160). The point being, that my sub is also a Hsu design, thus demonstrating that the upper limit of 90 wasn't a constant in his work. Sorry if I wasn't clear...I often can't figure out what I'm talking about myself, so being clear to others isn't a strong point ;D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 0:51:29 GMT -5
I suppose I should go back and read all the posts over again, but I'm too lazy.
It seems that all this talk about the HSU sub having a low pass filter max setting at 90Hz is not applicable in 95% of all cases. The only reason you would ever use it is if you don't have a bass management system in your preamp or pre-pro processor. Normally you would use the Low Pass sub setting in the processor and not on the HSU which has a crossover bypass setting, which HSU refers to as "OUT." Notice in the HSU manual it states:
"..........Crossover Frequency Range ... 30-90 Hz, bypassable.........."
It also states:
"..........Step 5: Crossover If you are using a controller with bass management capabilities, we generally recommend setting the crossover on the controller to 80 Hz for all channels, even if you have full range speakers. This gives the widest dynamic range - all the power of your main amp are reserved to handle only the mids and highs. Set the CROSSOVER on the subwoofer to OUT............"
HSU uses the term "OUT" for the crossover "bypass."
The only use for a low pass filter setting higher than 90dB's on the HSU VTF subs would be when using the speaker high level in/out connectors with very small bookshelf/satellite speakers and a processor with no bass management. I don't think Dr. HSU envisioned folks using the VTF series subs in the high level hookup with other than towers or bookshelf speakers that reproduced down to at least 90Hz or lower at -3dB's.
LOTR should note that HSU uses the term "crossover." (They probably picked that up from Chuckienut!) ;D
Again in most processor setups you would never use the crossover/low pass filter controls on the back of the sub. The bypass function on the sub would always be on.
That's all men!
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 16, 2010 2:26:27 GMT -5
Don't worry about it; just use some wall's diffusers, acoustic room' reflectors, bass traps, 4" thick foam around your speakers and front screen, sound absorptive & decorative panels spreaded across the front of your room, and in the back too for good measure, some anti-reflective sound material in the ceiling from the front of your room, and a good thick carpet on your floor; then get a Parametric Sub-EQ with at least two outputs, then run your Automatic Room Calibration and EQ system from your pre/pro or receiver with special attention on the microphone positions, try to use at least 48 mic positions to make sure you have a good coverage of the listening's positions, make sure too that your chairs or couches are reclyned with their headsets back down, stay away from the back wall and side walls, and you should be just fine. ...And if you have access to a PC that would help too as you can run a program like REW, with demonstratives colorful graphs that are very useful at analysing, remeasuring, calculating, adding, dividing, substracting, multiplying, remapping, and find out the root square of your room and even your own body, so you can compensate for its mass being present in the room when listening to the final results. Hope this put you on the right track! ...I know it did for me. And when you're all done, let's say in a year or two, come back right here for your second set of instructions. There are 16 sets of instructions all together! Oh! Almost forgot, when you're ready to listen to the final result, do it in the nude, as clothes can affect the sound results by absorbing it. Bare skin acts as a much better transparent medium, and the more leathery the better, because young smooth skins like in young women would bounce the sound right off, and you certainly don't want that. See, I told you not to worry about it. * When in doubt, simply crack open a can of beer. I did all that ages ago...the result was horrible!!! Then I realized, I left the speaker grilles on...silly wabbit. So I took them off, sat down again to listen...the dog walked into the room, and messed up my whole soundstage, what with that huge hole where her fur was absorbing the low end of the high end of the middle of the bottom of the top of the side of the middle of the high end of the low end of the mid-hi low frequencies. I was at a loss, so I cracked a beer and pondered my next step. One six-pack later, I had the mains 6" from each ear, which was a bit uncomfortable, doumbek-shaped synthetic marble beasts that they are, BUT... JERRY GARCIA WAS IN MY LIVING ROOM!!! Which was funny, because I had moved the speakers into the dining area by then, and that's where Bobby and the other guys were...well, Mickey Hart kept ducking out to make sandwiches, but all in all, I was happy! Couldn't really tell you how it sounded, but it was a great setlist, I remember that... Works great with headphones too. * By the way, the XMC-1 will have one of those right? ...A headphone jack?
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 16, 2010 2:48:54 GMT -5
I suppose I should go back and read all the posts over again, but I'm too lazy. It seems that all this talk about the HSU sub having a low pass filter max setting at 90dB's is not applicable in 95% of all cases. The only reason you would ever use it is if you don't have a bass management system in your preamp or pre-pro processor. Normally you would use the Low Pass sub setting in the processor and not on the HSU which has a crossover bypass setting, which HSU refers to as "OUT." Notice in the HSU manual it states: "..........Crossover Frequency Range ... 30-90 Hz, bypassable.........." It also states: "..........Step 5: Crossover If you are using a controller with bass management capabilities, we generally recommend setting the crossover on the controller to 80 Hz for all channels, even if you have full range speakers. This gives the widest dynamic range - all the power of your main amp are reserved to handle only the mids and highs. Set the CROSSOVER on the subwoofer to OUT............" HSU uses the term "OUT" for the crossover "bypass." The only use for a low pass filter setting higher than 90dB's on the HSU VTF subs would be when using the speaker high level in/out connectors with very small bookshelf/satellite speakers and a processor with no bass management. I don't think Dr. HSU envisioned folks using the VTF series subs in the high level hookup with other than towers or bookshelf speakers that reproduced down to at least 90Hz or lower at -3dB's. LOTR should note that HSU uses the term "crossover." (They probably picked that up from Chuckienut!) ;D Again in most processor setups you would never use the crossover/low pass filter controls on the back of the sub. The bypass function on the sub would always be on. That's all men! ^ That is an excellent post Chuckie! Ty for bringing that up. As for "crossover" term, like I said before, everyone's using it, even most subwoofer's manufacturers. But when it comes time to post at AVS, and have some discussions with the presumed 'big shots', some people there love to CORRECT you right away. That's their way to show their superiority, their supremacy, their well developed knowledge, their ego in full glory... I had many discussions over there in the past, and it made me sick sometimes to see at which point they were ready to go just for showing off their full of it outside tracks of life. Anyway, we all know here, at Emotiva, that when we refer to a x-over, we mean a combination of a Low Pass and High Pass Filter, right? So, now, that should clear things up once and for all. And what truly matters right in the now, is your excellent post here above that I just quoted, and nothing else, for now... And Happy Birthday again, even if it was yesterday. Your trusty friend, Bob
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Post by barryrobin on Aug 16, 2010 2:51:48 GMT -5
I'll take the reduced audio quality as a trade off for the naked woman with smooth skin, thank you. You *so* read my mind... ;D if we're being true to form on an audio forum, shouldn't the correct question be: " What's a naked woman?" -b
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