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Post by Topend on Aug 10, 2010 18:23:48 GMT -5
Basically the UMC-1 is able to do what the SMS can do, but for multichannel use only. The big hitch is that its basically non functional for 2 channel use. The UMC-1 is not able to do what the SMS-1 does, as far as I know. The SMS-1 is a parametric equalizer and the UMC-1 does not have that feature, does it? Also, why would the UMC-1 have multichannel adjustment but not be able to do the same thing in 2 channels? Wouldn't you just do the same thing as you do for multichannels but for only the two? Correct.
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 10, 2010 22:04:31 GMT -5
Lonnie...
This has been very helpful in understanding why you feel that bass management is working fine and some of us who do understand room EQ's, parametric equalizers, automatic equalizer capability and target curves have voiced a concern about the UMC-1's bass management.
Emotiva made the business and design decisions to make the device user friendly for a user who didn't have the knowledge or perhaps equipment to take advantage of more function. Indeed, too much function can be intimidating and can give a user the opportunity to really foul things up.
For what it's worth, I have no problem with that design point and Emotiva has produced an excellent sounding processor that meets your design point and meets the needs of a large number of users.
There are other solutions in the market for those of us who want more function or control of room equalization....and for those folks, which might include me, the extended 30 day return period has allowed us a welcome long evaluation period as you firm up the other software.
Perhaps after the XMC, Emotiva will offer a processor with the sound quality of the UMC-1 and the full tweaking capability including parametic EQ's, rerouting bass to eliminate the chance of comb filtering and maybe automated setup as well for those of us that want that function and from a business point of view are willing to pay for that function.
Thank you for clarifying the issue....
GH
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Post by dragonV on Aug 10, 2010 23:51:35 GMT -5
Hi,
This has probably been covered, but didn't fancy searching the numerous threads around about the XMC-1.........sorry lazy I know:)
Given the amount of av receivers that have now gone this way, is there any chance the XMC-1 will feature front width and height surround processing, or has this been mentioned for any future emotiva processor release???
I didnt put much weight on height and width processing, until I heard a friends 9.2 setup. AWESOME!!!!
regards
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Post by Topend on Aug 11, 2010 0:06:58 GMT -5
Hi, This has probably been covered, but didn't fancy searching the numerous threads around about the XMC-1.........sorry lazy I know:) Given the amount of av receivers that have now gone this way, is there any chance the XMC-1 will feature front width and height surround processing, or has this been mentioned for any future emotiva processor release??? I didnt put much weight on height and width processing, until I heard a friends 9.2 setup. AWESOME!!!! regards I doubt it. The XMC design was decided on a while ago and there has been no mention of widths or heights. Dave.
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Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,262
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 11, 2010 2:24:40 GMT -5
If you want bells and whistles, the Yamaha. I have a RX-V2700. But you will only have 60 - 70 real Watts per channel. If you want zero Watts messing up the processing, take the XMC. Just add the amp of choice. XPR-7 maybe? Only like 6 x more... I just wrote this sort of scathing response to this, then I realized, are you saying 6x more cost, or by using the XPR-7 you'd get 6x more power? Power ;DPower ;DPower ;DPower ;DPower ;DPower ;D
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Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,262
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 11, 2010 2:54:44 GMT -5
"Hello from Germany . Whats better Yamaha RX-A3000 www.yamaha.com/yec/AVENTAGE.html or Emotiva XMC-1? ?? best regards" (1). One is a receiver and the other is a pre/pro. (2). One is an actual product (RX-A3000), the other is a concept (XMC-1). In order to have a honest comparison and discussion based on merit, you'll need 2 similar, in production products. Otherwise, you'll just have useless, endless, subjective and even dishonest speculation! jamrock I thought that the tone of my post made that clear already. ;D We shall dispose with the pleasantries (Just makes me think of Darth Vader recording for TomTom!) Now, to our German friend: go to AreaDVD (EDIT: I can't find it, maybe some other German site) and look up the review about the Onkyo 5507 processor. That is the kind of sound quality you can aspect (unless Lonnie chips in and swears the XMC will be miles better ;D) (sorry, a little joke to go with the flow). Biggest difference is the Onkyo has 9 channels DSX, vs only 7 for the XMC-1. Similar are the XLR connections: read how the XLR provide the best sound quality. To be honest, active pro speakers are used in this situation and the distance to the 5507 obviously is beneficial for XLR vs RCA.
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Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,262
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 11, 2010 3:01:46 GMT -5
Hi, This has probably been covered, but didn't fancy searching the numerous threads around about the XMC-1.........sorry lazy I know:) Given the amount of av receivers that have now gone this way, is there any chance the XMC-1 will feature front width and height surround processing, or has this been mentioned for any future emotiva processor release??? I didnt put much weight on height and width processing, until I heard a friends 9.2 setup. AWESOME!!!! regards You lazy sod! The XMC- is basically a UMC-1 but with "hot-rodded analogue section", say better output stages and XLR connections. Don't count on DSX. You need the Onkyo 5508 if you want Wide + Height simultaneously, the 5507 can only do Back Surround + Wide or Back Surround + Height. A Denon can do all, but it's a AVR. A AVR has amps, just to make clear to the hard heads.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 11, 2010 4:20:41 GMT -5
Lonnie... This has been very helpful in understanding why you feel that bass management is working fine and some of us who do understand room EQ's, parametric equalizers, automatic equalizer capability and target curves have voiced a concern about the UMC-1's bass management. Emotiva made the business and design decisions to make the device user friendly for a user who didn't have the knowledge or perhaps equipment to take advantage of more function. Indeed, too much function can be intimidating and can give a user the opportunity to really foul things up. For what it's worth, I have no problem with that design point and Emotiva has produced an excellent sounding processor that meets your design point and meets the needs of a large number of users. There are other solutions in the market for those of us who want more function or control of room equalization....and for those folks, which might include me, the extended 30 day return period has allowed us a welcome long evaluation period as you firm up the other software. Perhaps after the XMC, Emotiva will offer a processor with the sound quality of the UMC-1 and the full tweaking capability including parametic EQ's, rerouting bass to eliminate the chance of comb filtering and maybe automated setup as well for those of us that want that function and from a business point of view are willing to pay for that function. Thank you for clarifying the issue.... GH For Lonnie: What is the situation for international returns? I may be more interested in the XMC or another pre/pro but the price already paid for shipping plus the additional to send it back probably makes it not worth while - selling locally or keeping it until something better comes along and then use in another room might be the best option. Clarification on international returns would help with the decision. Will the 40% future discount vouchers be sent out once the return clock is ticking? Thanks.
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Post by Topend on Aug 11, 2010 4:30:42 GMT -5
^ The return policy is for those that believe the UMC does not perform to their expectations because it has a fault. It it not a means to offload your UMC so you can upgrade to an XMC.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 11, 2010 4:33:13 GMT -5
Absolutely - but it is looking like the UMC-1 may not be the unit for me and DEPENDING ON THE FEATURES OF THE XMC-1 that unit may be. So I think this is perfectly valid. Plus other international customers may want to return for other reasons so would probably like to know the situation too.
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Post by Topend on Aug 11, 2010 4:40:36 GMT -5
I'm an international customer too so would be interested in knowing the policy.
As my UMC has been excellent in every way I won't be returning it. I will sell it to get the XMC.
Dave.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 11, 2010 4:54:03 GMT -5
Agreed - I am mostly happy with the UMC-1 and will reserve final judgement until I have played with the next FW, the above posts were looking for general policy and trying to reflect various return scenarios.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2010 5:19:42 GMT -5
Lonnie wrote:
".....Think about this for moment. 31, 63 and 125 are set at 1 octave intervals. The Q on the EQ bands for the bass is 1, which means it affects 1 ocatave above and below the center frequency. So those three bands will actually affect and control frequencies from 15.5 to 250hz. So the entire band is covered......"
".....A narrow band EQ is virtually useless to the majority......"
".....we looked at it from the start as being overly complicated for the majority of end users and decided to keep it simple....."
I have always thought Emotiva's product design and execution was superb. I have waited very patiently for the top of the line XMC-1, due to its including a phono preamp, headphone output, XLR, and other upscale specs and features. I want to keep my component rack down to the lowest number of separate machines as possible while still having state of the art audio and video. I do not want to have separate phone preamp and Sub EQ if possible.
If there is one area where most audio/HT enthusiasts miss the boat, it is in the attention to detail in the performance of the sub. I want a sub that goes low and loud while still being musical and is FLAT. Yes, I do own the Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ. However, I was hoping the XMC-1 would have a sophisticated parametric sub EQ. Most people need a sub EQ as very few subs are reasonable flat in the typical room. There are usually one, two or occasionally more, significant peaks (more than +3dB's) in the critical 15-80Hz range. A pre-pro as sophisticated as the future XMC-1 without some accurate sub EQ is a big disappointment to me. Yes I will have to keep my SMS-1. However, I worry about those who will just hook up the XMC-1 with what I consider a mostly useless full octave EQ centered at 31 and 63 and a dangerous one at 125Hz.
As an example of the importance of a sub EQ, I owned a superb 8" Energy sub that was originally down -3dB's at 29Hz, up 8dB's at 40 Hz and flat at 60Hz in my small room. I flattened it out very nicely with a $115 ART 351 mono 31/band graphic EQ that had low points at 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 50, 60, 80, and 100Hz. It had high and low filters, a 6-12dB control and worked extremely well. I ended up with a measured response of 29-120 +/- 2dB's! I only used a frequency response CD, Radio Shack Analog Meter (with a correction chart) and a tripod. My son is a drummer and brought over his drum test CD. He said he had never heard a sub that was more musical or defined.
Clear directions of the why and how to use this system can be explained in only a few paragraphs in the owner's manual. It is very cheap, easy and effective for achieving relatively flat response in most rooms. Most people think an analog EQ is not modern enough but it works so well that even SVS sold it for their subs a few years back. Too many folks are spoiled and expect to turn on a mike hit a button and let the machine create a flat subwoofer response in their room. That is fine if they can afford an SMS-1 or other machine.
I don't agree that EQ points at 31, 63 and 125 are very effective because the peaks are usually more narrow. The average Joe with his hand on that 125Hz EQ with a boost is going to have a muddy mess in his upper bass/low midrange. A narrow band para-EQ IMO is much more useful. Most people would benefit from its use if it was clearly explained without scaring the user by talking about pro equipment like RTA's. Many good folks think it requires a sophisticated system like Audyssey, Velodyne SMS-1, Emo EQ or Super-Duper-Room-Correction-Godzilla XPSRT-IIz to properly EQ a sub. I disagree and would like to see in the XMC-1 or future Emo pre-pros a narrow band (adjustable 1/3, 1/6, 1/12 octave) manual EQ with 2 or 3 or more bands and no higher than 80-100Hz. Maybe 3 or so user custom pre-sets would be nice so I could EQ the sub for music, movies, etc and then choose the EQ as I desired. Offer or recommend an accessory package like SVS does ($80) that contains the RS analog meter, a frequency response CD and detailed instructions on its use. A note in the Emo pre-pro manual would recommend the user not use the sub EQ system without using a CD and meter to determine the settings. It's easy folks and it is actually lots of fun and very effective.
I totally agree with Ntrain's detailed comments above and those also of Ghstudio. I also want to be able to EQ my sub with both 5.1 and 2.1 music and movies. Another idea would be for Emo to design and sell their own separate sub Auto/EQ with mic and OSD. With a design size like the XDA-1 and blue lights it would sell like hotcakes.
I hope Lonnie will give it some serious thought.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 11, 2010 5:25:41 GMT -5
Excellent post CN!
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lancity
Emo VIPs
Go Green
Posts: 169
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Post by lancity on Aug 11, 2010 9:08:29 GMT -5
A 1RU sub eq would match the XDA-1 very nicely... it'll go great in my new apartment when my wife leaves me over the emotiva straw that inevitably breaks the camels back.
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Post by wizardofoz on Aug 11, 2010 10:25:02 GMT -5
My ONKYO 606 had active HDMI when the unit was in standby based on the last watched HDMI dvice...likewise when using a non HDMI source the last HDMI port would still pass video ie like when on TUNER.
It would be nice to be able to have a video selection output when on tuner for the UMC-1 as sometime I like to keep an eye on the TV while listening to the radio.
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Posts: 438
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Post by edrummereasye on Aug 11, 2010 12:38:07 GMT -5
Excellent post! Put me down as "me too".
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Post by julien on Aug 11, 2010 12:41:08 GMT -5
I have always thought Emotiva's product design and execution was superb. I have waited very patiently for the top of the line XMC-1...I do not want to have separate...Sub EQ if possible. If there is one area where most audio/HT enthusiasts miss the boat, it is in the attention to detail in the performance of the sub. I want a sub that goes low and loud while still being musical and is FLAT. Yes, I do own the Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ. However, I was hoping the XMC-1 would have a sophisticated parametric sub EQ. Most people need a sub EQ as very few subs are reasonable flat in the typical room. There are usually one, two or occasionally more, significant peaks (more than +3dB's) in the critical 15-80Hz range. A pre-pro as sophisticated as the future XMC-1 without some accurate sub EQ is a big disappointment to me. Yes I will have to keep my SMS-1. However, I worry about those who will just hook up the XMC-1 with what I consider a mostly useless full octave EQ centered at 31 and 63 and a dangerous one at 125Hz.... I don't agree that EQ points at 31, 63 and 125 are very effective because the peaks are usually more narrow.... I hope Lonnie will give it some serious thought. I just bought dual Epik Empires and was looking into a SMS-1. Just to reenforce chuckienut point I'm getting flat at 40Hz and +5db spike at 50Hz, but flat again at 60Hz-80Hz then -4db at 90Hz and flat agian at 100Hz. My Onkyo 905 receiver (used as preamp for my Emotive power amp) has a 5 band sub EQ but at fixed frequencies at 25, 40, 63, 100 and 160Hz (about 3/4 octave). There is no way I can accurately fix my subs with this. I'm on the original waiting list for the XMC and came over to see if there would be any improvement in sub EQ before I buy a SMS-1. Looks to be a little up in the air. I would love to see 4-8 band parametric EQ for the sub and not need to use a SMS-1 . 1 octave EQ is not even close to what I need.
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Post by Stevens on Aug 11, 2010 13:31:25 GMT -5
Subwoofer room correction doesn't have to built into your processor or receiver; there are many stand-alone solutions available. For all those who don't want to shell out $2500 for this ( link) or $750 for this ( link), there's always this one (link) at approx. $350. It offers parametric equalisation in up to 24 filters and I can attest to the fact that it works exactly as advertised. It is also idiot-proof and very simple to set up and use. I guess there is also this alternative ( link) at around $100, but I don't know first-hand how well it works. So, just saying, even if EmoQ can't do this, there are other ways. .
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 11, 2010 14:10:39 GMT -5
The behringer box works quite well for subs, but of course you have to use something like REW software and a microphone to set it up...it does not have any automatic eq.
The only problem with using the UMC-1 with these solutions is if the distance from your mains to your sub are significantly different, you either have to lie and say it's the same distance or move the sub so it actually is the same distance. This cancels out the comb filtering so you don't have to worry if it's audible or not.
I have the $2500 solution and it works exceptionally well (and it should for that price). In my case the sub and mains are the same distance so I'm not effected.
BTW, I have two of the behringers (which I'm not using..hint) and I tuned with REW...but the $2500 solution produces far far better sound in my difficult to tune audio room.
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