RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Aug 12, 2010 17:01:19 GMT -5
I am sure in this case it does not matter if the SW is set to 120 Hz or not because he ain't getting anything above 80 Hz from the AVR... No? No LFE is a separate data stream that hasn't been subjected to the EQ from the rest of the channels. How many times does this have to be covered?
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Aug 12, 2010 17:02:35 GMT -5
It's not that easy because you have to add the narrow bands to the upper bands in the code and that's likely not trivial. You also have to do auto eq of them if you offer auto eq. So I suspect that given where the XMC is in the design process, this just is too late. (I'm not saying it's wrong....it's just too late) I would have to disagree with you that a majority of end users of either the UMC-1 or the XMC-1 would find the narrow band EQ overly complicated. I mean Emotiva has indicated that the UMC-1 and the XMC-1 will be audiophile grade prepros. So I can not see why Emotiva would not want to cater to those that have the capabilities. If one does not have those capabilities or the need to use a narrow band EQ do not have to use it. Emotiva went to great lengths to have an excellent analog section in the UMC-1 so why not have EQ functions to match? Bill This was an Emotiva design decision on what is important to what they believe is their target market segment. There are lots of things they could do if they wanted to appeal to more audio savy folks with deeper pockets, but they are designing to a price point. I suggested and continue to suggest that they consider a true audio processor as a follow on the XMC..if it makes financial sense. Um to get right to the simple point, since the UMC-1 already has an 11 band sub eq in the unit(limited to multichannel), it should be able to work for 2 channel audio as well(where many users actually need it), and in reality it wouldnt cost anything significantly more to mfg. so that it does work for 2 channel. I personally feel this is a BIG design flaw in the unit not being able to use the 11 band sub eq for stereo use, and it has nothing to do with mfg. cost. Hell there are ALOT of lower end budget AVR's that have a multiband sub eq that works for both multichannel and stereo.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 12, 2010 17:04:49 GMT -5
"jamrock, this response is to you and others that are assuming that the XMC-1 will have THX certification..........."
Topcat, thank you for your dilligence. But I am not hopeful for THX certification. We've just got to wait for the announcement at Emofest.
However, I would like you and all forum members to bite into this bit of nugget:
According to my 'electronic expert' the base management as deployed in the UMC-1 and now possibly, the XMC-1, can work perfectly. But, it depends how it is 'constructed'
According to this gin & tonic freak, if the X/O is applied to the incoming signal and combined with the LFE (.1) before being routed to their respective channel, it prevents lobing and works perfectly as no time delay is applied to the signal before it is X/Oed to the sub. In this iteration, it renders the boosting of the signal below the X/O as done by EMO-Q, useless, of no effect, and the bass is perfect.
Is this possible? And, is there a diagram out there of the base management for the UMC-1 or XMC-1. Experts chime in!
jamrock
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Post by Topend on Aug 12, 2010 17:12:51 GMT -5
There is no small or large setting as such with the UMC. As the XO can be set for each speaker group there is no need for a small/large setting as it is set by the UMC when selecting the XO.
The XO on the sub filters only high frequencies so has no bearing on directional sound from other speakers.
A lot of the comments here must be from non UMC owners that don't understand the XO flexibility of the UMC. It is not similar to a run of the mill AVR where you set small/large and the set a global XO.
Dave.
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 12, 2010 17:26:52 GMT -5
topend...some processors allow you to set large or small...and if you select small, then you get an option for the crossover point. (e.g. Lexicion DC-2,....).
A universal crossover only works if all of your speakers go down to 80hz cleanly.
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Post by rdaneel on Aug 12, 2010 17:27:07 GMT -5
What I wish is that Emo would make a $2000 version of the Tact TCS MkIII, which does full adaptive room correction (essentially super EQ) on the full range 12 channels (any combination of main and sub). That has to be absolutely amazing. I have the 2-channel Tact amp that does room correction, and it's jaw-dropping. The only problem with the Tact - it's $15,000. But Emo can do that for 90% less, right? I'll keep dreaming. Until then, I'll take an XMC-1 asap, please.
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Post by Topend on Aug 12, 2010 19:55:18 GMT -5
topend...some processors allow you to set large or small...and if you select small, then you get an option for the crossover point. (e.g. Lexicion DC-2,....). I am only talking about the UMC-1. I can only speculate the XMC will be the same when it comes to selecting XO frequencies. Cheers, Dave.
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tubby
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Post by tubby on Aug 12, 2010 20:20:56 GMT -5
With all this talk on crossovers I thought I would clear the air on some terminology. The crossover for the mains, center and surround speakers is a high pass filter (HPF). The crossover for the sub as it is in the UMC is a low pass filter (LPF). The HPF allows highs to get through and the LPF allows lows to get through. If the mains are set to 80hz, then the HPF will filter any sound below this freq and redirect it to the sub. If the sub is set to 120hz, then the LPF will filter any sound above this freq. I don't know if this sound (if there is any) gets redirected or discarded. Dave. This is not entirely accurate. The crossover for the mains, center and surround speakers is a high pass filter (HPF) and a low pass filter (LPF). It allows the highs to go to the mains and the lows to go to the sub. The crossover for the sub as it is in the UMC is a low pass filter (LPF). It is applied before the bass is summed and affects only the LFE channel.If the sub is set to 120, then the LPF will filter any sound above this for the LFE signal, it does not affect the signal redirected from the mains. To look at it another way if your mains are set at 250 setting a sub crossover of let say 80 the full 250 and below will still make it to the sub. The LFE will however be cut off at 80. I have the UMC and have tested the functionality with REW and a number of test discs. We should probably make a new thread to discuss this since it is not really on topic.
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Post by Topend on Aug 12, 2010 21:25:18 GMT -5
The crossover for the mains, center and surround speakers is a high pass filter (HPF) and a low pass filter (LPF). It allows the highs to go to the mains and the lows to go to the sub. The crossover for the sub as it is in the UMC is a low pass filter (LPF). It is applied before the bass is summed and affects only the LFE channel.If the sub is set to 120, then the LPF will filter any sound above this for the LFE signal, it does not affect the signal redirected from the mains. To look at it another way if your mains are set at 250 setting a sub crossover of let say 80 the full 250 and below will still make it to the sub. The LFE will however be cut off at 80. I have the UMC and have tested the functionality with REW and a number of test discs. We should probably make a new thread to discuss this since it is not really on topic. I don't disagree. I just tried to make it as simple as I could so it could be understood by all, including those that don't have the UMC. Dave.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 12, 2010 22:52:55 GMT -5
"In contrast to the main channels, the LFE channel delivers bass-only information (<120 Hz) and has no direct effect on the perceived directionality of the reproduced soundtrack..........." Guys, unless you have a SW for every main speaker plus each SW placed in the same respective position as their speaker or have miniature speakers, use the darn 80 Hz setting on the processor or AVR and select the "small" setting. From 80 Hz and above, the content becomes directional sensitive. I am sure in this case it does not matter if the SW is set to 120 Hz or not because he ain't getting anything above 80 Hz from the AVR... No? Yes! ...But I'd say up to 100 Hz you are fine. * And 120 Hz is the correct setting for the LPF (Low Pass Filter) of the LFE (Low Frequency Effect, or .1) channel only.
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 13, 2010 2:43:15 GMT -5
"In contrast to the main channels, the LFE channel delivers bass-only information (<120 Hz) and has no direct effect on the perceived directionality of the reproduced soundtrack..........." Guys, unless you have a SW for every main speaker plus each SW placed in the same respective position as their speaker or have miniature speakers, use the darn 80 Hz setting on the processor or AVR and select the "small" setting. From 80 Hz and above, the content becomes directional sensitive. I am sure in this case it does not matter if the SW is set to 120 Hz or not because he ain't getting anything above 80 Hz from the AVR... No? Yes! ...But I'd say up to 100 Hz you are fine. * And 120 Hz is the correct setting for the LPF (Low Pass Filter) of the LFE (Low Frequency Effect, or .1) channel only. Thank you for the non-aggressive reply! Unlike some.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 13, 2010 3:00:37 GMT -5
"jamrock, this response is to you and others that are assuming that the XMC-1 will have THX certification..........." Topcat, thank you for your dilligence. But I am not hopeful for THX certification. We've just got to wait for the announcement at Emofest. However, I would like you and all forum members to bite into this bit of nugget: According to my 'electronic expert' the base management as deployed in the UMC-1 and now possibly, the XMC-1, can work perfectly. But, it depends how it is 'constructed' According to this gin & tonic freak, if the X/O is applied to the incoming signal and combined with the LFE (.1) before being routed to their respective channel, it prevents lobing and works perfectly as no time delay is applied to the signal before it is X/Oed to the sub. In this iteration, it renders the boosting of the signal below the X/O as done by EMO-Q, useless, of no effect, and the bass is perfect. Is this possible? And, is there a diagram out there of the base management for the UMC-1 or XMC-1. Experts chime in! jamrock It would be great if Lonnie can comment on this. I think it depends where things are captured. It was my hope that all of the decoded data could be manipulated by the DSP before being sent on to the D/A section so anything should be possible. What is different about routing for 2 channel? Surely (especially if a digital source) the stream comes into the DSP from the input side so can be manipulated by it before anything else is done to it? So why couldn't below XO data be pulled off at this point and sent to the LFE channel for example? (which maybe it is). Likewise, can the DSP not do whatever summing is needed at any point between getting the input and sending it to the DACs? So indeed all these things could be done whatever way one likes, even differently for different sources/streams etc. My guess is that the limitations are mostly code storage space and developer time. The XMC should have more storage space as it is supposed to have per input video settings ...
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 9:33:06 GMT -5
I'm going to guess that Lonnie is getting a little tired of this topic. Many of us have been wandering around in bass management for a few months now and I think we've pretty much said everything that needs to be said on the topic. We are not the designers, we are not the folks who are trying to build and/or maintain a business, some of us, including me, are not even competent to make the design decisions which all interact...it's generally not just change a switch here or there. There's an assumption that all the cirrus support code actually works ... then...not now because the decisions had to be made quite a while ago and cirrus code might not have been stable enough.
Lonnie has stated that the UMC bass routing will not be changed...and I think he said that it will continue into the XMC. For some of us, that's a problem....for many other potential buyers, it's not a problem and it will improve their sound....and they are in the majority folks.
I won't buy a processor that has a global crossover point...just won't do it. You might not want to buy a box that has a bass management issue. That's life, that's business.
While I've been somewhat of a leader on the bass management questions, even I am willing to end the discussion, except to express a hope that there will be a "audio pro" model following the XMC, albeit at a higher price that does everything that we all want.....and that depends on the chips and software that's available and works! I want Trinnov processing in that box.....
So how about if we give bass management redesign and alternate design a rest.....
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Aug 13, 2010 9:57:55 GMT -5
So how about if we give bass management redesign and alternate design a rest..... WHAT?.....and waste a perfectly good dead horse? Surely you jest!
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Post by raylock on Aug 13, 2010 11:03:36 GMT -5
So how about if we give bass management redesign and alternate design a rest..... WHAT?.....and waste a perfectly good dead horse? Surely you jest! Well, I have found the discussion of this dead horse extremely educational. I have learned a lot, but unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to contribute. Before we go, do any of you have any good reference material on bass management that you could share (other than just Google it). thanks
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Post by Brian on Aug 13, 2010 13:16:36 GMT -5
for many other potential buyers, it's not a problem and it will improve their sound....and they are in the majority folks. How do you know this?
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 13:32:20 GMT -5
for many other potential buyers, it's not a problem and it will improve their sound....and they are in the majority folks. How do you know this? Know is a subjective word. 99% of the folks whose homes I visit have sound systems from walmart, target, sams or Best Buy...they bought on price and advertising and perhaps and unfortunately factual information from the salesman....or they bought BOSE at the local discount mall. Any room tuning will sound better than what they have. They like boomy bass.....they strive for it. They will never listen to a string quartet or clean acoustic guitar. They do not listen to acoustic music, do not spend $1000 on their speakers, let alone one speaker. Sorry...but that's the real world for audio...and if you had a business, you would probably try to appeal to that big world. So I don't know statistically...I just know based on my limited experience.
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Post by Captain Stubing on Aug 13, 2010 13:56:06 GMT -5
THX is not worth the licensing fee George Lucas charges. Emotiva can duplicate the specs of THX without certification for the XMC-1. When THX was introduced in the late 1980's for home theater electronic manufacturers were making poor gear. Today, THX certification is just a licensing fee. There is no guarantee the product is of good quality. They guarantee the manufacturer has followed THX specifications.
A quick question for those that do not have 3 blue stars or more. The 3 blue stars indicate that you are a owner of Emotiva gear. Lonnie changes your stars to blue once he has verification that you have purchased Emotiva gear. With that being said, how many of you with the yellow stars have not purchased Emotiva gear or did not know you can contact Lonnie to get your blue stars?
I have never seen 4 blue stars, maybe it can happen. I have seen 4,000 posts by "Lord Of The Rings SE" in 7-8 months. There seems to be forum members with 400+ posts as well, but no blue stars.
I'm a bit confused. I hate to think some people have spent countless hours posting on the forum without having Emo gear to enjoy.
Put my vote in for the Active HDMI input/pass through on the XMC-1.
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 13, 2010 14:23:49 GMT -5
I own a UMC-1....and I don't care if my stars are blue or yellow....
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Post by Captain Stubing on Aug 13, 2010 14:31:53 GMT -5
I own a UMC-1....and I don't care if my stars are blue or yellow.... Ok. So do you plan to keep your UMC-1? Don't you want your blue stars?
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