Ultra Sub 12 - short review

[barryg]

(shouldn't there be a separate Subwoofers review section?)

I've had my Ultra Sub 12 for about 8 weeks now. Ancillary equipment is Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR and Ascend Sierra-1 speakers. The sub is placed in a corner of a very large room with a very tall ceiling. I preferred a crossover setting of 50hz over 80hz for integration of the Ultra Sub 12 Sierra-1 speakers. The Pioneer's auto MCACC routine seemed to do a fine job with the setup.

I couldn't be more pleased with the performance of the Ultra Sub 12. Considering the purchase price, the US12 is an amazing overachiever for both music (tight low end) and HT. If I was harboring any doubts about the US12's ability to go low and loud, those doubts were totally vanquished after enjoying T4 Salvation with its VERY robust low end effects. I was pleasantly surprised at just how palpable the low end was. The US12 puts out A LOT of bass, as required and I never felt it was bloated, boomy, or distorted.

[saturnx]

I have a newbie question for ya...and I own an Ultra Sub 12. When you adjust the cross over what mark is 80hz? It starts at 50hz and runs to 150hz.

Thanks
Steve

[hemster]

Steve, Well I don't own an Ultra-12 but I do have the Ultra-10.

Anyway, for the crossover, most people are using their receivers/processors to achieve the crossover so you could set the control all the way up to 150Hz. The receivers/processor won't be sending anything over 8-Hz if that's where you set it.

[openreel]

Aug 15, 2010 16:43:11 GMT -5 saturnx said:

I have a newbie question for ya...and I own an Ultra Sub 12. When you adjust the cross over what mark is 80hz? It starts at 50hz and runs to 150hz.

Thanks
Steve

80Hz is the tick at the 11:00 position. Evidently the pot is logarithmic so other ticks aren't ID'd.

[saturnx]

Thanks for the replies..sorry I used your review for my question. I was hoping to point my question towards people who have had experience with Ultra Subs...So again Thanks.

It seems at the 11 oclock position the sub blends better with my 6.2's. Honestly If I couldnt see the sub I wouldn't know it was even being used. (except for the strong bass..lol) And to top it off I havent set up the phase because I don't know how to accurately set it up.

Steve

[SticknStones]

Yes, to be consistent with the other subject areas there should be a separate subwoofer section. I have made umpteen requests to no avail so it is all mixed in speakers. I have the U12 as well and have been enjoying it.

[jackfish]

I think it makes perfect sense that one should allow such excellent loudspeakers to handle as much of the audio spectrum they are capable of producing when integrating a subwoofer. I tried my Magnepan MMGs at 80 Hz and soon was back to 50 Hz as it was evident it sounded better. With loudspeakers having a bass extension of 40-50 Hz all one wants to do is have the subwoofer pick up the next lower octave below what the loudspeakers are capable of producing.

[monkumonku]

Aug 16, 2010 10:54:41 GMT -5 jackfish said:

I think it makes perfect sense that one should allow such excellent loudspeakers to handle as much of the audio spectrum they are capable of producing when integrating a subwoofer. I tried my Magnepan MMGs at 80 Hz and soon was back to 50 Hz as it was evident it sounded better. With loudspeakers having a bass extension of 40-50 Hz all one wants to do is have the subwoofer pick up the next lower octave below what the loudspeakers are capable of producing.

That makes sense but then that made me think about the way the UMC-1 handles bass management for multi-channel applications. Any frequencies above the LFE low pass cutoff are routed to the left and right speakers. There is no separate cutoff for the bass derived from the regular channels versus the .1 channel so you can't have one cutoff for the 5.0 and another for the .1 channel.

Even if your speakers are capable of handling material lower than the usual or standard 80 hz cutoff in most HT setups, I am wondering if you want that material in the LFE channel going to your main speakers instead of a sub? First it would increase the load on the amp driving the main speakers and second, would it have the same sensory impact coming through the mains that it would with a dedicated subwoofer?

I just got a set of Mirage speakers with towers for the mains that can handle lower octaves than the bookshelf speakers I had before so I am wondering where I should set the bass cutoff. I haven't had time to do any adjustments between the sub and other speakers yet. I guess the answer really is set them where it sounds the best, right?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2010 10:54:41 GMT -5 jackfish said:

I think it makes perfect sense that one should allow such excellent loudspeakers to handle as much of the audio spectrum they are capable of producing when integrating a subwoofer. I tried my Magnepan MMGs at 80 Hz and soon was back to 50 Hz as it was evident it sounded better. With loudspeakers having a bass extension of 40-50 Hz all one wants to do is have the subwoofer pick up the next lower octave below what the loudspeakers are capable of producing.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. If both the main speakers and the sub are both of excellent quality and design then it seems that what makes perfect sense is to send the low bass to the speaker/sub that can best handle the particular frequency reproduction in question. There are a number of reasons to send the bass below 80Hz to the sub instead of the main speakers. Those include the fact that the sub has its own dedicated amp, less problems with phase issues and room issues such as standing waves (and sitting waves ... ) as well as many times being able to reproduce the range in question, 40-80Hz, louder and with less distortion than the main speakers. Of course it should be recommended to actually test out the two alternatives in each persons room and situation to find ones personal preference. Many speakers are on their "last legs" as far as clean flat output at low distortion when approaching the bottom of their low end frequency response range. This is in no way meant to disparage either the Sierra's, the Maggies or any other Speaker, but only to acknowledge that the sub is a dedicated speaker specifically designed to maximize the reproduction of the 80Hz range and lower.

Audioholics comments in their review of the Sierra's:

"..........Bass is definitely a strong point for these speakers with a 3dB point in the upper 40Hz region. Though don’t expect to get high SPL’s at these frequencies as you are limited by the cone excursion of such a small woofer. We still recommend crossing these speakers over at 80Hz and letting a good sub or two handle the bass duties below that region..........."

Obviously we have two members here who prefer that the mains handle the area below 80Hz in their case. However, to make a general statement that the mains are better able to handle the octave from 40-80Hz does not necessarily make perfect sense IMO. In fact, I believe it makes better sense in most cases to let the quality sub handle from 80Hz and below.

[jackfish]

monkumonku, I guess I don't get what you are saying. With the correct setting of the high pass filter for the mains there would be little true LFE material going to the speakers. If frequencies below 120 Hz are truly non directional then it really doesn't matter if some of that is coming from the main loudspeakers (which in my proposition can handle it) or from the subwoofer. And if the threshold is 50 Hz then the subwoofer is certainly handling all of the LFE material of consequence. I actually think there is greater impact with the mains producing bass material they can handle rather than let the subwoofer do it. And again, I'm positing this for loudspeakers with low frequency extensions of 40-50 Hz -3 dB. Integration of a subwoofer for the best sound quality should trump just trying to obtain the greatest SPLs, particularly for mostly music listening. But, i also have to agree with the idea that an individual should explore this for themselves and see what sounds best to them.

Emotiva UMC-1
From the webpage:
•Quadruple bass manager with independently selectable high and low pass frequencies from 40hz – 250hz, in 5 or 10Hz increments (depending on frequency)
From the manual:
•You can set the L/R Front and Center from FULL to 200Hz.
•You can set the L/R Surround and L/R Back from NONE to 250Hz. When the L/R Back is set to anything except NONE you can choose 2CH or 1Ch depending on the if you have 1 or 2 surround back speakers.
•You can set the Subwoofer from 40Hz to 250Hz. (All speaker crossovers can be set to the following; 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 110, 120, 140, 160, 200)��

Why can't the high pass filter for the mains be set to 50 Hz while the low pass filter for the subwoofer is also set to 50 Hz?

[monkumonku]

Aug 16, 2010 13:01:29 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Aug 16, 2010 10:54:41 GMT -5 jackfish said:

I think it makes perfect sense that one should allow such excellent loudspeakers to handle as much of the audio spectrum they are capable of producing when integrating a subwoofer. I tried my Magnepan MMGs at 80 Hz and soon was back to 50 Hz as it was evident it sounded better. With loudspeakers having a bass extension of 40-50 Hz all one wants to do is have the subwoofer pick up the next lower octave below what the loudspeakers are capable of producing.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. If both the main speakers and the sub are both of excellent quality and design then it seems that what makes perfect sense is to send the low bass to the speaker/sub that can best handle the particular frequency reproduction in question. There are a number of reasons to send the bass below 80Hz to the sub instead of the main speakers. Those include the fact that the sub has its own dedicated amp, less problems with phase issues and room issues such as standing waves (and sitting waves ... ) as well as many times being able to reproduce the range in question, 40-80Hz, louder and with less distortion than the main speakers. Of course it should be recommended to actually test out the two alternatives in each persons room and situation to find ones personal preference. Many speakers are on their "last legs" as far as clean flat output at low distortion when approaching the bottom of their low end frequency response range. This is in no way meant to disparage either the Sierra's, the Maggies or any other Speaker, but only to acknowledge that the sub is a dedicated speaker specifically designed to maximize the reproduction of the 80Hz range and lower.

Audioholics comments in their review of the Sierra's:

"..........Bass is definitely a strong point for these speakers with a 3dB point in the upper 40Hz region. Though don’t expect to get high SPL’s at these frequencies as you are limited by the cone excursion of such a small woofer. We still recommend crossing these speakers over at 80Hz and letting a good sub or two handle the bass duties below that region..........."

Obviously we have two members here who prefer that the mains handle the area below 80Hz in their case. However, to make a general statement that the mains are better able to handle the octave from 40-80Hz does not necessarily make perfect sense IMO. In fact, I believe it makes better sense in most cases to let the quality sub handle from 80Hz and below.

What you say makes sense (and so does the opposite view as well). My question is about the blending between the sub and the mains. I know we are talking about the lower frequencies so maybe there isn't as much difference in timbre between the bass register as there is when listening to vocals or piano or other instruments between two different speakers, but nevertheless there is going to be that difference. So something to consider is what blends better - keeping as much of the lower frequencies with the same speaker so that it remains tonally consistent, or moving the lower frequencies to the sub for better efficiencies and problems with positioning, etc.

[monkumonku]

Aug 16, 2010 13:26:42 GMT -5 jackfish said:

monkumonku, I guess I don't get what you are saying. With the correct setting of the high pass filter for the mains there would be little true LFE material going to the speakers. If frequencies below 120 Hz are truly non directional then it really doesn't matter if some of that is coming from the main loudspeakers (which in my proposition can handle it) or from the subwoofer. And if the threshold is 50 Hz then the subwoofer is certainly handling all of the LFE material of consequence. I actually think there is greater impact with the mains producing bass material they can handle rather than let the subwoofer do it. And again, I'm positing this for loudspeakers with low frequency extensions of 40-50 Hz -3 dB. Integration of a subwoofer for the best sound quality should trump just trying to obtain the greatest SPLs, particularly for mostly music listening. But, i also have to agree with the idea that an individual should explore this for themselves and see what sounds best to them.

Emotiva UMC-1
From the webpage:
•Quadruple bass manager with independently selectable high and low pass frequencies from 40hz – 250hz, in 5 or 10Hz increments (depending on frequency)
From the manual:
•You can set the L/R Front and Center from FULL to 200Hz.
•You can set the L/R Surround and L/R Back from NONE to 250Hz. When the L/R Back is set to anything except NONE you can choose 2CH or 1Ch depending on the if you have 1 or 2 surround back speakers.
•You can set the Subwoofer from 40Hz to 250Hz. (All speaker crossovers can be set to the following; 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 100, 110, 120, 140, 160, 200)��

Why can't the high pass filter for the mains be set to 50 Hz while the low pass filter for the subwoofer is also set to 50 Hz?

Oh most definitely you can set the high pass and low pass filters each to 50 hz. My point was whether or not you'd get better sound and less strain on the system by making the cutoff higher. I guess you just have to listen and see which one sounds better.

[roadrunner]

If you are using your Ultra-12 sub with a typical HT pre/pro you should set the "Low Pass Filter" to the BYPASS position and allow the pre/pro to select the crossover point. Not all sub woofers have a switch to enable or bypass the low pass filter; and in that case you would set the "Crossover Point" to 150 Hz to allow the pre/pro to take control.

One of the primary reasons for allowing the sub woofer to handle the frequencies at say 50 to 80 Hz (vs allowing the mains to do it) is the placement flexibility to counter nulls and other placement sensitive problems. Quite frequently, the optimal spot to place the mains is a poor spot for optimal bass response. Blending the sound between the Mains and the subs is usually much easier to achieve if you have the flexibility to move the sub to other locations in the room away from the Mains.

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2010 13:26:42 GMT -5 jackfish said:

If frequencies below 120 Hz are truly non directional

It is generally accepted that frequencies below 80Hz are non directional and frequencies from 80-120Hz and above are directional.

[jackfish]

I wouldn't necessarily say generally accepted as there doesn't seem to be agreement in the literature I've seen. Certainly, 80 Hz is accepted as a standard according to THX. But, what about the directional cues for some low frequency material like the mallet striking the bass drum?
"Low frequency information below 120Hz is, for the most part, non-directional..."
"...the non-directional parts of the bass below 100 Hz (approximately)..."
"...bass below 80 Hz is non directional..."
"All frequencies have "directional" cues."
"non-directional bass refers to the increasing difficulty for a person to spatially locate the source of a sound as the frequency gets lower and lower. At what frequency is not cut and dried as that can depend on the person and the circumstances and environment in which sound is generated."
Its likely there are differences in application suggested for home theater systems and 2.1 music systems. There is the possibility of stereo imaging smearing with higher subwoofer crossovers.
In any event, one could replace 120 Hz with 80 Hz in that statement I made earlier and it does not affect the original premise. If a loudspeaker is "specifically designed" to reproduce frequencies down to 50 Hz, in some cases it is possible that taking away frequencies below 80 Hz could adversely affect the sound. My suggestion was only to allow a well-designed loudspeaker do what it was designed to do and let the subwoofer pick up the rest below that.

As far as allowing a subwoofer to always take duty below 80 Hz to better address peaks and nulls in room bass response, one has to consider where most of those drastic peaks and nulls occur... above about 80 Hz! This suggests that room treatments could be more important than speaker and subwoofer placement in some cases.

[Deleted]

....."All frequencies have "directional" cues.".....

I think you are confused between the fundamental frequency and its harmonics. 80Hz is in general considered the cut off for being able to determine the location off low bass tones. However, you can determine the location of a particular bass source due to its 2nd, 3rd, etc. harmonic overtones. For example, the fundamental tone of 70Hz is not directional from the sub it is reproduced from but does give directional clues due to the 140Hz harmonic that is played thru the right channel speaker (one example here ... only the fundamental 70Hz tone comes from the sub in a setup that crosses over at 80Hz). That is why you are be able to determine where the original source or instrument of a particular low bass tone at a 80Hz or lower fundamental might be located.

.....If a loudspeaker is "specifically designed" to reproduce frequencies down to 50 Hz, in some cases it is possible that taking away frequencies below 80 Hz could adversely affect the sound. My suggestion was only to allow a well-designed loudspeaker do what it was designed to do and let the subwoofer pick up the rest below that......

Two points here. First, you are not taking away any frequency, (in the case of the 70Hz tone above) it has simply been re-directed to the sub by the crossover and the upper harmonics are still reproduced thru your main speakers. Since it is below 80Hz, one cannot determine that the sub might be off to the left of the left speaker while the harmonics and the actual location of the source are on the right side of the soundstage.

Perhaps it will help understand my point on crossing over to a sub in my example of 80Hz instead of 40-50Hz if you could consider the sub and the main full range speaker as essentially one speaker that has been split into two sections by necessity. Understand that I'm talking about speakers in general here including the more common dynamic speakers. They include a crossover that sends the frequencies to the specific driver "what it was designed to do." Those are your words but of course mean exactly the same as I'm trying to explain. The specific tweeter, midrange and woofer (as an example) in a particular speaker all have a frequency that they are most ideally suited to reproduce. One wouldn't let the midrange driver reproduce frequencies at the low end of its capabilities that the woofer could better handle.

To continue on down the frequency range of the source material, we arrive at the frequencies in modern music and movie soundtracks that stretch the lower limit of the main speakers. Some speaker manufacturers have in the past thus decided to add a second woofer that handles the frequencies below the capability of the regular woofer. I used to own such a speaker. The crossover again decided what frequencies at which to assign lower bass to the internal "lower" or "sub" woofer. It was determined by many that this put an extra strain on the main amps to drive the lower sub. Some speakers brands then included their own dedicated internal powered subwoofer (and still do even after the advent of high quality external powered subs). It was found by most that having the powered sub in both the actual left and right main speaker at and below 80Hz caused numerous phase and room acoustic problems. That is why in modern full range sound speakers which might in general include four drivers; tweeter, midrange, woofer and subwoofer; they decided to separate the lowest frequencies below 80Hz into a separate dedicated powered sub. In many such systems with both a high quality main speaker and equally high quality sub the crossover is recommended at 80Hz. One reason, of course, is that this is exactly the frequency that we can no longer locate the sub and thus we can use a single sub and place it other than at the exact front/center of the room without affecting the original placement/soundstage of the sound source.

The typical high quality sub as a general example is very strong at reproducing the frequencies between 40-50Hz and 80Hz (which is the range we have been discussing) because that is right in the main section of its total range at +/- 3dB's of about 15-20Hz to 125-150Hz. On the other hand the main speaker that is down about 3dB's in the 40-60Hz range or so is actually at the absolute bottom of its capability to reproduce those lowest frequencies. The sub can do the job much better (louder, lower and with considerable less distortion) and thus IMO an obvious conclusion.

Some folks seem to consider the sub as an afterthought or simply as a reinforcement to the lower end of their main full range or bookshelf speakers. This is in no way to disrespect the low bass capabilities of their main speaker but to understand that a sub of equal quality can do the job better. To me that makes good sense. Forgive the many generalizations here but I didn't want to put anyone to sleep by going on in too much detail.

I'll leave you folks to argue this more but in my senile mind it is quite clear (I think ;D).

[barryg]

Aug 15, 2010 16:43:11 GMT -5 saturnx said:

I have a newbie question for ya...and I own an Ultra Sub 12. When you adjust the cross over what mark is 80hz? It starts at 50hz and runs to 150hz.

Sorry - I was offline for a while.

I am actually bypassing the internal xover in the US12 and using the dsp xover in my Pioneer SC-07.

[barryg]

As far as the debate over 50hz vs 80hz - my experience was that the system sounded better when crossover was 50hz. I'm not ready to buy the argument that the US12 can "do the job much better" in the 50hz-80hz range than the Sierra-1. The AVR in use may also sway the crossover decision to optimize sub/satellite integration.

In any event, VERY happy with the system sound as currently set up.

[Deleted]

Sorry, I'm the one who got your thread off onto the crossover debate and I'm sure we can all agree to disagree. I won't beat the horse anymore. (I apologize for getting carried away on one of my pet subjects.)

The good news is your positive report on the Ultra 12 sub. Glad to hear you are so pleased.

[saturnx]

How well would The Ultra 12 sub match with the Ert-8.3 for 2 channel music. I'm talking about sending full range to the 8.3's and setting the sub at 80hz? My family room is huge and 6.2's just dont get the extention I need to satisfy me in my kitchen which is basically one large room. My 6.2's are great for singers like James Taylor, John Mayer..etc..But the heavy metal I like, they seem to fall on their face.....any replies would be greatly appreciated.

Steve