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Post by bobbyt on Jan 11, 2011 13:36:56 GMT -5
The idea that 6 feet of optical fiber is somehow too long is beyond silly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 14:02:11 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the "on paper" capabilities of one versus the other. All I know is that my ears hear a difference and a large one. I've notived that most people who tend to be skeptical about cables tend to have old ears. Frankly I think it is less old ears and more knowledge, frugality and good judgment. Of course maybe spending on cables is good for the economy. Most people who think cables make a difference know nothing about electricity. I bet your cables have a marker indicating which way to go? As if ac electricity would travel better in one direction  By the way, I saw a online ad that said the optical cables gold plating improved the signal quality. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 11, 2011 14:18:45 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the "on paper" capabilities of one versus the other. All I know is that my ears hear a difference and a large one. I've notived that most people who tend to be skeptical about cables tend to have old ears. Frankly I think it is less old ears and more knowledge, frugality and good judgment. Of course maybe spending on cables is good for the economy. Most people who think cables make a difference know nothing about electricity. I bet your cables have a marker indicating which way to go? As if ac electricity would travel better in one direction By the way, I saw a online ad that said the optical cables gold plating improved the signal quality. Well I plead guilty on both counts of being skeptical of sound differences among cables and also of having old ears. That said, I put the directional arrows inside of the cable jacket so the sound can see it, and also I make sure the optical cable jacket is opaque because that way the sound doesn't get distracted by looking around at my room as it travels through the cable and then gets lost or is late, etc. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 11, 2011 14:36:16 GMT -5
I've compared the coax and optical inputs on the XDA-1 and noticed a small difference in sound quality. I wonder if anyone else has a similar experience. The optical input has slightly less bass weight and impact than the coax input. Male vocals sound slightly less full and upright bass notes have less overhang. The difference is of a similar magnitude as when changing interconnects. Has anyone else had a similar experience? I have found there is quite a difference between the two. I am using a MacUltra Silver+ cable on the coax and versus the optical connection the coax connection has a lot more life to it, more upper end clarity and just a more pleasing sound. I'd wager you did not do a BLIND TEST comparison. |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 11, 2011 14:41:57 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the "on paper" capabilities of one versus the other. All I know is that my ears hear a difference and a large one. I've notived that most people who tend to be skeptical about cables tend to have old ears. Frankly I think it is less old ears and more knowledge, frugality and good judgment. Of course maybe spending on cables is good for the economy. Most people who think cables make a difference know nothing about electricity. I bet your cables have a marker indicating which way to go? As if ac electricity would travel better in one direction By the way, I saw a online ad that said the optical cables gold plating improved the signal quality. Gold plated light improves purity in the signal transfer. ;D * Electrical laser light is the way to go! ;D ~~~ I'm working on new cables: water transfer! ;D |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 11, 2011 14:51:17 GMT -5
Frankly I think it is less old ears and more knowledge, frugality and good judgment. Of course maybe spending on cables is good for the economy. Most people who think cables make a difference know nothing about electricity. I bet your cables have a marker indicating which way to go? As if ac electricity would travel better in one direction By the way, I saw a online ad that said the optical cables gold plating improved the signal quality. Gold plated light improves purity in the signal transfer. ;D * Electrical laser light is the way to go! ;D ~~~ I'm working on new cables: water transfer! ;D I use ELO cables (Electric Light Orchestra). |
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Post by jonsmith on Jan 11, 2011 15:00:33 GMT -5
Well, I will chime in on this...I used a coaxial cable, and recently purchased an optical cable from Emotiva with my Emo Bucks from Emofest.
Firstoff, I had show almost everybody how neat it was that the signal from the laser beam was being sent through the new cable. That's just plain cool.
Second, I noticed a distinct improvement in several areas with the optical cable. Much more "air" and artifacts such as noises, mic bleedover, etc.
My belief is that my player must create some sort of digital nonlinearity (e.g., jitter, distortion) through its coax output that it doesn't through its optical output. Since we all have different players, I guess YMMV. But with my pioneer universal player, it seemed to make a difference. I have "old" ears, and can't hear above 16K any more, but what I can hear seems much softer and more like analog with the device generally, and even more so with the OPTICAL cable in my case.
If it makes any difference, the cable wasn't specifically for "digital coax" but I researched the cables and couldn't see where there was any difference in the ones being marketed as "digital coax" and "analog." That may be significant; I don't know since I plan on continuing to use the optical cable.
Off topic, but I just sent my player back to have the potentiometers reflashed to be logarithmic taper instead of linear taper--that should really make it a more usable device. If only it played SACD's...it would be a really great device, and not just an excellent one. When I called in and asked for tech support to find out about the signal strength issue, they put Lonnie on the phone, who was gracious, patient, and suggested that I have the eprom re-flashed since the burr brown d/a converter's volume control can be set either as a log or linear taper. Pretty impressive to get the chief tech guy when you call for tech support.
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 11, 2011 15:12:18 GMT -5
Well, I will chime in on this...I used a coaxial cable, and recently purchased an optical cable from Emotiva with my Emo Bucks from Emofest. Firstoff, I had show almost everybody how neat it was that the signal from the laser beam was being sent through the new cable. That's just plain cool. Second, I noticed a distinct improvement in several areas with the optical cable. Much more "air" and artifacts such as noises, mic bleedover, etc. My belief is that my player must create some sort of digital nonlinearity (e.g., jitter, distortion) through its coax output that it doesn't through its optical output. Since we all have different players, I guess YMMV. But with my pioneer universal player, it seemed to make a difference. I have "old" ears, and can't hear above 16K any more, but what I can hear seems much softer and more like analog with the device generally, and even more so with the OPTICAL cable in my case. If it makes any difference, the cable wasn't specifically for "digital coax" but I researched the cables and couldn't see where there was any difference in the ones being marketed as "digital coax" and "analog." That may be significant; I don't know since I plan on continuing to use the optical cable. Off topic, but I just sent my player back to have the potentiometers reflashed to be logarithmic taper instead of linear taper--that should really make it a more usable device. If only it played SACD's...it would be a really great device, and not just an excellent one. When I called in and asked for tech support to find out about the signal strength issue, they put Lonnie on the phone, who was gracious, patient, and suggested that I have the eprom re-flashed since the burr brown d/a converter's volume control can be set either as a log or linear taper. Pretty impressive to get the chief tech guy when you call for tech support. If you are using an analog RCA cable as an input into the XDA-1, that is not the right kind of cable. You need a digital coax cable. The connectors are the same but the impedences (or some other spec.. I can't remember exactly) are not the same. You really need to compare a true digital coax cable to the optical cable. Using an analog cable isn't a valid comparison. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 11, 2011 15:27:55 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the "on paper" capabilities of one versus the other. All I know is that my ears hear a difference and a large one. I've notived that most people who tend to be skeptical about cables tend to have old ears. i guess i'm older than you, but i'll put a bet, in a BLIND TEST you will not be able to %100 identify one from the other. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jan 11, 2011 15:45:07 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the "on paper" capabilities of one versus the other. All I know is that my ears hear a difference and a large one. I've notived that most people who tend to be skeptical about cables tend to have old ears. i guess i'm older than you, but i'll put a bet, in a BLIND TEST you will not be able to %100 identify one from the other. I'd put money on that bet! On the side of no diff! ;D |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 11, 2011 15:52:15 GMT -5
i guess i'm older than you, but i'll put a bet, in a BLIND TEST you will not be able to %100 identify one from the other. I'd put money on that bet! On the side of no diff! ;D i'd double your money and bet i'm older than you! ;D |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jan 11, 2011 16:09:00 GMT -5
I'd put money on that bet! On the side of no diff! ;D i'd double your money and bet i'm older than you! ;D You're on - LOL! |
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 11, 2011 16:22:11 GMT -5
Yeah Monku's right; an RCA analog cable has a 50 Ohm impedance, and a Digital coaxial cable is usually a 100 Ohm impedance cable. A Video RCA Composite or Component Coaxial cable is usually a 75 Ohm impedance cable. * And the RCA plugs have to be also appropriate, as the digital coaxial type is the Video type one with the higher impedance. ** But you can use a Composite or Component Video cable as a Digital Coaxial RCA one. _________________________________ As for who's the oldest and wisest, I wouldn't bet on that! ;D ...Unless you got money to share.  |
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Post by rogerwilco on Jan 11, 2011 17:00:39 GMT -5
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 11, 2011 17:19:50 GMT -5
Some are 100 Ohms. But I did mention that a 75 Ohm one is fine.  * Some are even 110 Ohms. |
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Post by merlinwerks on Jan 11, 2011 20:57:20 GMT -5
FWIW, here is my understanding of S/PDIF The spec for coaxial S/PDIF is 75 ohms. AES/EBU which is balanced S/PDIF is 110 ohms. The single ended S/PDIF circuit is a transmission line designed to be sourced and terminated with a 75 ohm impedance, which means the cable, connectors, transformers all have to be designed with this impedance in mind. Done correctly this minimizes the amount of signal that is reflected back towards the source from the receiving end which helps to minimize jitter. Out of convenience and cost the majority of manufacturers settled on using RCA connectors for their S/PDIF connections as opposed to a BNC connector. Unfortunately there are no true 75 ohm RCA connectors (not even the Canare connectors) so the RCA connectors will always be a bit of a compromise. Now the big question is whether this compromise is truly audible, my personal opinion is that it is not, but as always YMMV ;D Here is some additional reading on the subject in general by a guy who does have a commercial interest in all this, but also one who I believe knows what he is talking about... www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45330.0www.analogresearch-technology.net/geekspeak.html |
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NorthStar
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"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 11, 2011 23:25:39 GMT -5
FWIW, here is my understanding of S/PDIF The spec for coaxial S/PDIF is 75 ohms. AES/EBU which is balanced S/PDIF is 110 ohms. The single ended S/PDIF circuit is a transmission line designed to be sourced and terminated with a 75 ohm impedance, which means the cable, connectors, transformers all have to be designed with this impedance in mind. Done correctly this minimizes the amount of signal that is reflected back towards the source from the receiving end which helps to minimize jitter. Out of convenience and cost the majority of manufacturers settled on using RCA connectors for their S/PDIF connections, unfortunately there are no true 75 ohm RCA connectors (not even the Canare connectors) so the RCA connectors will always be a bit of a compromise. Now the big question is whether this compromise is truly audible, my personal opinion is that it is not, but as always YMMV ;D Here is some additional reading on the subject in general by a guy who does have a commercial interest in all this, but also one who I believe knows what he is talking about... www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45330.0www.analogresearch-technology.net/geekspeak.htmlYou sir, are quite right! |
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Post by tjhenry on Jan 12, 2011 21:18:45 GMT -5
thepcguy,
No my listening wasn't a blind test. I'm getting together with an audio friend of mine and I'll switch inputs with him listening to see if he hears any difference. I'm also thinking of taking the XDA-1 to a local audio shop to compare to the Benchmark DAC1. I think I'll do some input switching there as well.
My optical cable is probably close to 10 years old and though it is in great shape, it's possible that the plastic may have slightly degraded over the years and the cable is causing the (possible) difference in sound. I think my friend may have a new optical cable to compare.
I'll let you know what I find out.
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Post by fantom on Jan 16, 2011 18:02:26 GMT -5
I would assume the only real difference should be that the coax connection is connecting a ground between the devices. Perhaps a slight ground loop issue is adding noise to the signal that is otherwise absent with the optical connection (or perhaps reducing other ground loop noise from other components within the system).
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Post by jonsmith on Jan 16, 2011 18:41:02 GMT -5
If you are using an analog RCA cable as an input into the XDA-1, that is not the right kind of cable. You need a digital coax cable. The connectors are the same but the impedances (or some other spec.. I can't remember exactly) are not the same. You really need to compare a true digital coax cable to the optical cable. Using an analog cable isn't a valid comparison. [/quote]
Thanks M,
I'll have to pony up some bucks and get a "digital coax" cable and see if the impedance matching issue makes a difference. I sure thought I was hearing better sound with the optical cable, and that may be the reason.
On the "even better" front, just listening to my "old" preamp and player has been really, really enjoyable. Every time I go back to them I like the way they sound, too.
They already re-flashed and re-shipped the d/a converter, which seemed pretty fast to me, about a two or three day turnaround.
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