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Post by rclark on Jan 16, 2011 23:39:42 GMT -5
i guess i'm older than you, but i'll put a bet, in a BLIND TEST you will not be able to %100 identify one from the other. I'd put money on that bet! On the side of no diff! ;D Hey, whatever makes you feel better. It's an audible difference. I was suprised to discover it. I find it amusing that you old fellows get so defensive whenever this sort of topic arises. Ears wear out. I can hear cleanly to 16k. Can you? I doubt it. You appear to be in your fifties at least. I bet your highs are distinctly muted to say the least. There is a difference. Bet all you want, double down, whatever. The fact that I can hear a difference, and others can as well, will never satisfy you because you are incapable of hearing the difference we so clearly pick up on. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jan 17, 2011 15:43:36 GMT -5
I'd put money on that bet! On the side of no diff! ;D Hey, whatever makes you feel better. It's an audible difference. I was suprised to discover it. I find it amusing that you old fellows get so defensive whenever this sort of topic arises. Ears wear out. I can hear cleanly to 16k. Can you? I doubt it. You appear to be in your fifties at least. I bet your highs are distinctly muted to say the least. There is a difference. Bet all you want, double down, whatever. The fact that I can hear a difference, and others can as well, will never satisfy you because you are incapable of hearing the difference we so clearly pick up on. The high end may roll off a little sooner at 58, but the BS detection abilities have improved vastly over 40 years of building and having hi-fi equipment. I subscribe to one law the law of physics. Whether transmitted over optics or copper a SPDIF signal is no different. The signal either gets there or it doesn't. Unlike analog there is no inbetween. |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 17, 2011 16:32:10 GMT -5
Me too, I subscribe to the law of physics; my ears!  |
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Post by tjhenry on Jan 17, 2011 18:35:17 GMT -5
cfelliot,
I agree with you, a bit is a bit. A digital signal transmitted by coax or optical should be the same. However, there is a conversion step that happens for both coax and optical. Coax is an optical signal converted to an electrical signal inside the source and optical is carried out of the source and converted to an electrical signal inside the DAC.
Isn't it possible that not all digital receivers/converters are created equal? For example, not all DAC chips have the same specs. Some are of better quality (better S/N). So, it may be possible that the digital receiver in a $ 600 blu-ray player might be a better spec part than in a $ 300 DAC. All components are built to a price point. Since the digital receiver is responsible for separating the clock and the audio data, this difference in digital receivers may account for differences in timing and result in jitter which may be audible.
I guess my point is: there are too many variables in between the bits exiting the source and then being re-constructed into an analog form (receivers, cables, etc.). In two exact systems with all variables being identical (example: the same digital receivers in both the source and the DAC), I agree, there should be no difference in sound quality for a coax or optical connection.
However, I have read many people noticing a difference in optical versus coax sound quality which might be attributable to differences in digital receivers or another variable. A similar example would be the recent addition of USB transceivers for audio. There are measurements that show differences in jitter between USB and other digital connections, so why would it be impossible that coax versus optical might have different measurements? I don't know of an example off the top of my head, but I'm sure that if I look at measurements for digital inputs in review magazines that publish their measurements that I will find differences in some components for coax and optical inputs.
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Post by merlinwerks on Jan 18, 2011 9:46:10 GMT -5
If the only requirement was to determine if a bit is a zero or a one then I would agree with the "bit is a bit" point of view, but that is not all that is going on, clock recovery is also required and I believe this is where the biggest potential for error exists between the various technologies. This is also where I believe measurable, but not necessarily audible improvements can be realized by using higher quality components in the signal chain, transformers, clocks, etc. as mentioned by tjhenry. Once again, whether any of this is truly audible or not is strictly up to the ears of the beholder, but differences do exist. www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90220.0 |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 18, 2011 18:47:13 GMT -5
Of course differences exist; many audiophile people can hear it!
* I don't care about the zeros and ones; I only use my ears with two big holes (Os) in them for my final findings.
~ They said our planet has the shape of an orange. Should we believe that?
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 18, 2011 19:39:19 GMT -5
Hey, whatever makes you feel better. It's an audible difference. I was suprised to discover it. I find it amusing that you old fellows get so defensive whenever this sort of topic arises. Ears wear out. I can hear cleanly to 16k. Can you? I doubt it. You appear to be in your fifties at least. I bet your highs are distinctly muted to say the least. There is a difference. Bet all you want, double down, whatever. The fact that I can hear a difference, and others can as well, will never satisfy you because you are incapable of hearing the difference we so clearly pick up on. The high end may roll off a little sooner at 58, but the BS detection abilities have improved vastly over 40 years of building and having hi-fi equipment. I subscribe to one law the law of physics. Whether transmitted over optics or copper a SPDIF signal is no different. The signal either gets there or it doesn't. Unlike analog there is no inbetween. +1 ;D ;D ;D by the way, if your BS detection abilities needs help, you can use this:  |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Jan 18, 2011 19:48:44 GMT -5
^  |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jan 18, 2011 23:01:54 GMT -5
We'll just have to agree to disagree. But, I think it is ludacris to suggest it has something to do with "old ears"! If we're going to post pictures, this one pretty much sums my feelings:  |
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Post by kumayama on Jan 19, 2011 0:28:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the memories. I still have one of those buttons around here somewhere that PWK gave to me over 30 years ago. He liked passing them out almost as much as flashing it.
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