For the absolute beginner

[klinemj]

Given price is flexible...I would consider the ERC-2 for CD sources, run it to the USP-1, then for amps either UPA-1's or an XPA-2. For speakers...I hesitate to reco as I find that the sounds of speakers can be a very personal preference.

Mark

[chet]

Thanks for the reply!

What are the relative advantages / disadvantages of using two UPA-1s vs 1 XPA-2?

Do speakers react considerably differently to different amps? Will it be necessary for me to listen to a specific pairing (say, Axiom M80 v3 with XPA-2)?

--Chet

[geebo]

Apr 22, 2012 17:04:15 GMT -5 chet said:

My price range is fairly flexible - in that I am alright with spending say $500 - $1000 more, by putting off my purchase for a month or so.

If the incremental benefit is significant, I can wait a few weeks before I make my purchase.

Currently, my CD player is a relic of the old system - I mainly stream using the Airport Express.
--C

If you think you might ever want a subwoofer then you should opt for a USP-1 over the XDA-1. That would only add 200 bucks.

[geebo]

Apr 22, 2012 17:41:37 GMT -5 chet said:

Thanks for the reply!

What are the relative advantages / disadvantages of using two UPA-1s vs 1 XPA-2?

Do speakers react considerably differently to different amps? Will it be necessary for me to listen to a specific pairing (say, Axiom M80 v3 with XPA-2)?

--Chet

UPA-1s are monoblocks rated at 200 watts and can be had now for $638 for two with the 10% discount code.

The XPA-2 is a stereo amp with 300 watts per channel for $799 and is currently not available.

Either option will sound fabulous and can drive 4 ohm loads with ease.

The question as to which is better has been talked about here before and some prefer the monoblock option while some prefer the single amp option. That's gonna be more of a personal choice. I recommended the monoblock route because they are available now and $160 cheaper.

[klinemj]

chet - I would not worry about a specific pairing of amps and speakers. Either amp option will be really good. If you think you will end up w/less efficient speakers and if you like the harder rock/hip hop that you mentioned and like to rock it out...go for the higher power XPA-2. If not, save the $ and go 2 x UPA-1. My motto has long been "buy the power I can afford and the rest will work itself out".

That said, as George notes...the XPA-2 is not in stock right now. So...you have to weigh in stock/now vs. later.

Or...you could look into used XPA-2's. They do have a 5-year warranty.

Mark

[garbulky]

Chet, that's a good question about the power. THe UPA-1 uses an amp module from an X-series amp so they are similar. For an axiom m80 v3 it is a 4 ohm speaker, so you got to look at the 4 ohm specs and the UPA-1 does 350 watts per channel (700 watts total) and the XPA-2 does 500 watts per channel (1000 watts total).
The XPA-2 has a different SNR figure but both are very high quality. Something to keep in mind with non-monoblocks like the XPA-2 is that the power output is slightly lower on one channel than the other one. The UPA-1 monoblock does not have this problem. I've had the UPA-2 a non-monoblock and never experienced a problem with this power output design. Also a UPA-1 monoblock will be able to provide a fully differentiated sound with no "crosstalk" etc.
The beauty is that the UPA-1 is the only u-series that I know of that have balanced inputs and since the XDA-1 has balanced outputs it will be able to take advantage of that. Unfortunately the USP-1 does not have balanced inputs, but using it with the XDA-1 is likely going to give you a better sound than via just the XDA-1.
So, it's really upto you. An emotiva rep mentioned that according to their users, the UPA-1 tends to be SLIGHTLY more musical while the XPA-2 has slightly more impact on sounds.
The basic story is do you want a monoblock or not?
The axioms don't require tons of power to run very loudly or push out serious dynamic range but they can sure take it! They are rated at 400 watts RMS per speaker and in their own tests have taken continuous 700 watts RMS for periods of a week. But because of their efficiency they need just a few watts to run.
I would personally go for the UPA-1's because it's a monoblock design but I don't think you can go wrong with either as they are both very good amps. They will also have good resale value because of their transferable warranty.

If you are willing to $500-$1000 more on your previous budget like you said, there are likely better speakers than the axiom m80's (though I haven't been able to hear them). And IMO, the axioms are great values for money. They aren't the best thing in the world for off-center listening. But in the sweet spot in the center the music is lovely. Also, it takes a LOT of placement experimentation to get it to sound just right. Otherwise it can sound, dul, or bright or lose some depth in the process. But at the price you said, there are probably better systems but it takes careful listening to people that have actually heard the two to compare in their own house. Some people have mentioned they listened to the axioms and didn't really care for them. While others have stated the opposite. They have been very well reviewed though FWIW and won several awards.

Once you figure out what electronic components you need, you can update us with a price you are willing to pay for stereo sound speakers. Then we can give you more options.
I personally like to run music without a sub or with a sub dedicated only to the lowest frequencies possible, hence why I liked the axioms because they reach low for a floorstanding speaker and don't need a subwoofer. I like the idea of "true stereo". Though getting two subs will do this for you but will drive the cost up signficantly.

Another option you can do is go for SCHIIT audio's DAC's than the XDA-1, I heard they are good value for money and may sound a little better according to a third hand source. So, don't take my word for it:)
For DAC reviews, check out Darko's DAC index using google.

[wizardofoz]

If you use the XDA-1 you can go optical from the ape to the XDA - and also optical or coax which ever yr cd player supports to the XDA. Then use amps of you choice, upa-1 or xpa-2 and a good pair of speakers like 8.3's, not sure how much that runs but you could hold off on the amp and speakers and use with the a5's you have now.

[maximumkahuna]

Streaming lossless files can give you great sound. itunes may not be the ideal player but it works well for many of us. Rather than jump in the deep end, I'd start with a good DAC. That will immediately improve the sound of your CD player and your lossless files. If you're using a pc, a XDA-1 and a USB/SPDIF converter will allow you to download and play hi rez files as well. There is a good variety of hirez jazz available. If you use a mac, use the toslink out and you're good to go without the converter. The Schiit Bifrost and the Audio-gd NFB-2.1 are more expensive and require a pre amp. (The USP pre amp gets super high praise in reviews.) If you only have digital sources, using the xda-1 to control volume (not ideal but usable) puts you at $350 -$400 for an a DAC/ converter and right in the sweet spot for speakers. For music only, full range speakers will do. Speakers are the most subjective purchase and you should research and listen as much as possible. Most ID speakers have 30day return. A PITA but essential to be able to listen to them. In the meantime save your money for the XPA-2, you can never have too much power.

[chet]

Thanks for all the replies!

I am trying to understand - what are balanced/unbalanced inputs/outputs?

Does the DAC function as a receiver?

--C

[garbulky]

A reciever usually has a pre-amplifier and an amplifier. The preamplifier is the volume control. And the amplifier powers your speakers. Lots of recievers also have a DAC onboard, especially if those recievers have a digital input.
The DAC provides the decoding of the digital signal into an analog current. It's one of the most important parts of the system next to the speakers. With a poor quality DAC the quality of your sound is rather poor.

We are guiding you towards getting separate components because usually the sound quality and power is much better using separate components rather than using a receiver. For instance the DAC on a reciever is usually an afterthought and provides poor sound. If your DAC provides poor quality sound and isn't able to be resolving enough in the subtle details then whatever you do to the rest of your system, the audio won't get much better. The preamplifier section is also an afterthought so the quality degrades as the volume control is reduced from maximum. The amplifier section on the AVR is also weak compared to emotiva's amplifiers. Emotiva amplifiers have very low SNR ratio and very good Total harmonic distortion + noise which translates to very low audio distortion under heavy loads. They also have the huge advantage that their power output is rated as all channels driven at continous loads. So a reciever that says 100 wattsX5 channels will not actually give you 100 watts when all 5 channels are driven. It will more likely give you something along the lines of 30-50 wattsX5 channels (and distort at loud volumes).
Emotiva amps when they say 300 wattsX5 they mean the amp will deliver 300 wattsX5 when all 5 channels are driven, so it will not shortchange you. And their harmonic distortion is measured at heavy load and if you look at the specs you can see that it's in the fraction of a %. Receivers measure their harmonic distortion at almost no load and still measure worse than emotiva amplifiers.

Now a DAC provides the analog signal which goes to the pre-amplifier (the volume control).
So most DAC's require a preamplifier to adjust the volume or it runs full blast. The XDA-1 has a preamplifier of sorts built into it, so it has a DAC and a preamplifier. So no separate preamplifier required. The USP-1 is a preamplifier and we reccomend it to be used because the preamplifier in the XDA-1 is a lossy volume control. So, audio information is technically lost when you adjust the volume down. Note this isn't a massive difference and doesn't SIGNIFICANTLY degrade the signal but it should sound better if you use the USP-1 as a preamplifier. If you use the USP-1, it will bypass the preamplifier section on the XDA-1 and use the XDA-1 as a standalone DAC

I use the XDA-1 alone and it sounds fine, but it will likely sound a little better with the USP-1 acting as a preamplifier.

Unbalanced inputs are the regular inputs that you see on the back of tv's and DVD players. They are FINE for audio. Most people don't use balanced inputs.
A balanced input has three prongs on it. It keeps the left and right channels separated a little bit better, and also provides you a 3db increase in dynamic range capability.
Most people can't hear much of a difference between unbalanced and balanced inputs. For instance the USP-1 does not have balanced inputs.
So, don't let that be the sole decider of what to get...whatever improvements it'll give you are very minor in the big picture.

[yves]

I have an XPA-2 and I can testify that the "problems" garbulky describes when comparing it to a pair of monoblocks are all in the mind. The center image and the holographic soundstage are done right and so is the rest of the amp, no wonder it's always sold out. lol

P.S. - I am using it with an Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus (a DAC that wipes the floor with the Schiit IMO) and a pair of Canton Vento 890.2 DC loudspeakers that can make the LED meters on the XPA-2 go up as high as 10 on the scale of 12 without causing any audible distortion.

[maximumkahuna]

An Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus may indeed be better than the Schiit Bifrost, at least most reviewers think so. Generally speaking more money brings one a better DAC with the law of diminishing returns coming into play as the price goes up. However the OP would be better off with a good but basic DAC and spending more of his budget on speakers at this point. He can always upgrade as the fever hits. I understand the idea of starting with the source, but it makes little sense to spend all your money on the front end and send it to Audioengine A5's

[garbulky]

Apr 25, 2012 22:11:30 GMT -5 yves said:

I have an XPA-2 and I can testify that the "problems" garbulky describes when comparing it to a pair of monoblocks are all in the mind. The center image and the holographic soundstage are done right and so is the rest of the amp, no wonder it's always sold out. lol

P.S. - I am using it with an Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus (a DAC that wipes the floor with the Schiit IMO) and a pair of Canton Vento 890.2 DC loudspeakers that can make the LED meters on the XPA-2 go up as high as 10 on the scale of 12 without causing any audible distortion.

I have no actual personal experience in most of what I said, so I suggest the OP take the advice of somebody like yves that has had the opportunity to experience these devices.

[harri009]

FYI if you are streaming through the airport even though it has an optical out iTunes down samples everything to 16bit 44khz when using airplay.

[maximumkahuna]

Apr 26, 2012 0:35:41 GMT -5 harri009 said:

FYI if you are streaming through the airport even though it has an optical out iTunes down samples everything to 16bit 44khz when using airplay.

A good point that I overlooked. If you're going to stay with the Airport Express, another reason for a good basic DAC.

[chet]

Thank you all. This is a lot of information to digest.

I will try to find some places to listen to a few amps and speakers and get back to you on my prognosis.

Any suggestions as to where I can listen to the products mentioned in the NYC area?

[bobbyt]

I'd ignore the talk of DAC quality levels. It's debatable as to whether it's 100% voodoo among audio fanatics; it's certainly irrelevant to an "absolute beginner".

The XDA is a combination DAC + preamp that'll let you connect whatever digital source you want (computer, CD player, etc) and control volume.

The Airmotivs are active (amplified) speakers that'll take a balanced (XLR) or unbalanced (RCA) signal from the XDA.

That simple setup will be very cost effective, and better quality than 97% of what's out there. I doubt you'll find anything lacking, and it'll surely top your friends' systems costing several times that.

Then down the road, if you get bored, you can get involved in silly debates about "better DACs" and veils being lifted and whatnot...

[Pauly]

Apr 29, 2012 21:20:26 GMT -5 bobbyt said:

I'd ignore the talk of DAC quality levels. It's debatable as to whether it's 100% voodoo among audio fanatics; it's certainly irrelevant to an "absolute beginner".

The XDA is a combination DAC + preamp that'll let you connect whatever digital source you want (computer, CD player, etc) and control volume.

The Airmotivs are active (amplified) speakers that'll take a balanced (XLR) or unbalanced (RCA) signal from the XDA.

That simple setup will be very cost effective, and better quality than 97% of what's out there. I doubt you'll find anything lacking, and it'll surely top your friends' systems costing several times that.

Then down the road, if you get bored, you can get involved in silly debates about "better DACs" and veils being lifted and whatnot...

Very good post with some great advice.

[garbulky]

Apr 29, 2012 21:20:26 GMT -5 bobbyt said:

I'd ignore the talk of DAC quality levels. It's debatable as to whether it's 100% voodoo among audio fanatics; it's certainly irrelevant to an "absolute beginner".

The XDA is a combination DAC + preamp that'll let you connect whatever digital source you want (computer, CD player, etc) and control volume.

The Airmotivs are active (amplified) speakers that'll take a balanced (XLR) or unbalanced (RCA) signal from the XDA.

That simple setup will be very cost effective, and better quality than 97% of what's out there. I doubt you'll find anything lacking, and it'll surely top your friends' systems costing several times that.

Then down the road, if you get bored, you can get involved in silly debates about "better DACs" and veils being lifted and whatnot...

I believe he is referring to blind tests. I disagree in my experience at least in the cheaper low-end audiophile market (Essence ST vs XDA-1 vs reciever). I'm biased as I have a hard time believing the DACS sound the same argument or the listening tests. I think it's more accurate to say there isn't a massive difference in good DACS. I also think that differences aren't apparent until you spend some time and get to know each DAC. But if your DAC isn't upto snuff, whatever else you do to your system is only going to improve the sound only so far as the DAC is pretty much the source of your music...
The airmotiv XDA-1 setup should give you great (GREAT!!) sound. But since you are willing to spend a good bit there are options as long as you are willing to take the time and research stuff. I think the options given here by everybody including bobbyt are actually all really good ideas and you couldn't go wrong or be dissatisfied with either one.

[maximumkahuna]

+1 to garbulky's response.