For the absolute beginner

[chet]

Thanks!

I am leaning towards:
1 XDA-1 Balanced DAC
2 UPA-1s
+ Speakers (looking at Magnepan MMGs, Axiom M80v3s, Wharfedale 10.7 (6 ohms, is that an issue?) and a few others). Looking for suggestions and / or comments.

All my music is going to be streamed - through an Airport Express. I have a stack of CDs, but I find that it is too restrictive to suit my ADHD mind.

[Deleted]

Just a comment about you including the Axiom M80's in your list. I don't want to step on any toes here but I've had a lot of experience with the Axiom and Emotiva tweeters and 5.25 drivers in the smaller size speakers. My Emo ERM-1's have the same exact upper bass/mid and tweeters as the Emo 8.3 and my Axiom M2's have the same exact upper bass/mids and tweeter as the M80. The M80 has two tweeters for increased power handling. The Emo silk dome tweeter is very high power handling and thus only needs one tweeter even in the top of the line ERT-8.3. Look also at the total weight of the M80, 57 lbs versus above 70 lbs for the Emo 8.3. There is a reason for the extra weight; higher quality enclosure build and better drivers, etc. Don't be fooled by the low end specs, someone is cheating a little. ;D

I did an extensive A/B comparison and the Emo SQ was superior in overall sound quality to my ears 17 out of 19 times in a blind test with 2 draws. I don't expect the #3 series to be a significant improvement. The Axioms are excellent speaker but the high in the Emo's are smoother and without the slight but audible edginess of the Axiom's metal tweeters. The Emo is more slightly more natural throughout the entire range.

Just my two cents here and some food for thought, but I consider the Emo ERT-8.3 to be a slightly better speaker and a great buy at the closeout price of $1199. The Emo only comes in lacquer satin black but it is very classy looking. The only advantage of the M80 is that it is available in custom finishes. The lacquer finish on the Emo is a big step above the standard vinyl finish on the Axioms.


PS: I would consider the XPA-2 amp if you go for very high volume output at times.

[chet]

Chuckienut,

Thanks for the .02! As a novice, I do require as much knowledge transfer as possible - and this is great. But I must admit, every bit of knowledge I get makes me want to dig in deeper.

1) Is heavier better, in general? Does the quality, density, weight of the enclosure change the sound quality? Is there any relation I can look for (sorry, this is the Statistician in me talking).
2) I quite like the black finish (it matches my personality... ok, kidding, I am not very goth).
3) The XPA-2 is out of stock - I plan on buying mid or end of May. Hopefully, it will be available by then, and make my choice all the more difficult.
4) 'Final Sale. No Returns' on the ERT-8.3 scares me. Making a huge investment, and finding out that the speakers don't match the drapes would definitely be a let down.
5) I don't turn the volume up too high (unfortunate side effect of NYC apt walls being as thick as toilet paper (not Charmin)).
6) And, the lady who lives with me is suggesting I keep things upgradable for the one time in 7 years she wants to watch a movie. Do any of the set ups bode well for a HT upgrade? Or should I tell her to move out?

And, as always - in the gentle sunshine of your collective knowledge, I bask. Muchas Gracias.

--Chet

[garbulky]

Just a note, I haven't had the chance to audition the emo speakers and knowing the ears and experience of people on the board they may very well be right on the axioms vs emotiva especially chuckienut. I think he stated it very well
I would just like to mention a few things:


Honestly, if you are considering emotiva speakers, I would DEFINITELY wait. Because they are about to update their speaker line with their folded ribbon tweeters which should be really very nice. Their folded ribbon tweeters are what's used in their airmotiv professional audio range and their airmotivs have recieved some seriously nice reviews.

There is two other advantages other than finishes: the axioms are *supposed* to reach lower in the bass range, and there is an upcoming processing box that they are going to release for the axioms which is supposed to smooth out it's frequency response even more. However, that processing box is going to be very expensive, likely greater than 600 bucks fwiw. So it may not be worth considering.

If you wish to return the axioms, understand that return shipping is expensive. But if you talk to axiom they might give you a discount price with their shipping agent. It will still run you about 70-80 bucks to return them though. So, keep that in mind.

One disadvantage to the axioms, even though their customer service is top notch and they don't argue with you and get you taken care of and are very polite, and when you call it goes immediately to a guy who actually knows his stuff back to front and if they are closed the guy returns your call even if you don't leave a message(!!) ... I found their shipping department and quality checking in replacement parts let me down on two occassions. Enough to make me frustrated. They fixed the issues without argument and the process was very streamlined. But they did mess up their shipments twice in a row and their quality control left me left me significantly less than satisfied. Enough to actually make me not give them my 100% reccomendation. E

Magnepans are known for amazing clarity most likely better than the axioms but requiring lots of power to drive them which the UPA-1's should do fine. But they are VERY DIRECTIONAL (the sweet spot is very strict) so keep that in mind.

I heard somebody also reccomending aperion audio (10 year warranty on their versus grand!) and philharmonic audio, and salk so that might be something you want to check out as well. Also, if nobody's told you before, you can go for a decent bookshelf + sub setup (though I wouldn't) and get very nice sound. The subwoofer handles the bass frequencies so you are more free to spend money on bookshelves which concentrates more on the important mid and high frequency section. The trade off is a smaller enclosure, but with the subwoofer helping out, it's not as bad as it sounds.

[Golden Ear]

May 1, 2012 16:51:42 GMT -5 chet said:

Thanks!

I am leaning towards:
1 XDA-1 Balanced DAC
2 UPA-1s
+ Speakers (looking at Magnepan MMGs, Axiom M80v3s, Wharfedale 10.7 (6 ohms, is that an issue?) and a few others). Looking for suggestions and / or comments.

All my music is going to be streamed - through an Airport Express. I have a stack of CDs, but I find that it is too restrictive to suit my ADHD mind.

While you're shopping for speakers, you may want to try Polk LSI and I don't know anybody wouldn't want ring radiator tweeter. These are the same tweeter you find on Sonus Fabre and krell resolution 1 ($11,000). Vifa tweeter is one the finest tweeter that ever invented.

[garbulky]

Also if you go for emotiva speakers, you can use that savings and put it towards a USP-1.

[chet]

If I were to get a USP-1, would I need a DAC? I know earlier on in this series of posts, someone had mentioned USP-1 doesn't need a XDA-1. Why not? Does it have a build in DAC? All my music is going to be streamed.

[geebo]

The USP is an analog pre-amp with no digital inputs. If you have some digital sources that have no analog outs, you will need a DAC. If all your sources have analog outputs, then no, you won't need a DAC.

[Pauly]

No, it doesn't have a built in DAC. If you stream the music, it would be highly recommended that you get an external DAC. So...digital music files from PC (or whatever) to the DAC via optical or USB, then from the DAC to USP-1 via analog.

[Pauly]

Also, the person that said that you wouldn't need an XDA-1 if you have a USP-1, probably said that because the XDA-1 DAC can also act as a preamp. However, it's my understanding from reading reviews here on the Lounge, that the USP-1 sounds better than the XDA-1 as a preamp. That may not be the case for everybody, but I would prefer to have both. The XDA as your dedicated DAC, and the USP as your preamp.

[Jean Genie]

FWIW my maggies love my XPA-2;
-just throwing in another $.02
Whatever you decide, enjoy your new toys!

[maximumkahuna]

May 2, 2012 20:52:06 GMT -5 chet said:

If I were to get a USP-1, would I need a DAC? I know earlier on in this series of posts, someone had mentioned USP-1 doesn't need a XDA-1. Why not? Does it have a build in DAC? All my music is going to be streamed.

You can get by the other way around. XDA-1 without the USP. Many people are using the volume control on the XDA-1 and think it sounds fine. Others think that the digital volume control resulting in a loss of bits as you turn down the volume compromises the sound. They (We) run the volume full out of the XDA-1 and use a pre amp to control volume. YMMV depending on the resolution of the rest of the system and your ears.
I don't mean that in a condescending way, some people believe they notice the difference and others do not. I run mine through my Marantz receiver in the Source Direct mode because it integrates it with the rest of my equipment. On the other hand, fewer piecces in the chain is usually better. Gets confusing doesn't it?

[Deleted]

Good stuff above. If all is comparable as in two similar sized towers or bookshelf speaker, dynamic type, that is with cones and domes then, yes the total weight is usually indicative of quality of enclosure construction and bracing (thicker walls and better bracing) and also better drivers and parts (heavier drivers and magnets, better crossover, etc.). It is always a specification I look at even though some dismiss it. It is normally a good tip off about the overall quality and many times the sound quality to me. I always look at the weight for same class AVR receivers and power amps. (Woman too, but in that case lighter is better IMO).

Of the speakers mentioned above I would still rate the 8.3's first and the Axiom and Wharfedale as both excellent alternatives. As I mentioned I actually prefer the bookshelf/sub THX type setup with, for example, 2 ea of the Emotiva ERM-6.2 or ERM-6.3 plus a very good musical sub like the Emo X-ref 10 or 12. The ERM-3/X-Ref 12 make for a stunning combination. In that case with the sub taking over at 80Hz, 2ea of the Emp UPA-1 mono-blocks would be superb (you don't need as much power to the L&R with the sub's amp handling the 80Hz and down frequencies)! Rythmik subs are also a great choice. The setup and blending of the bookshelf's and sub take some time and adjustment. IMO one ends up with a cleaner, lower (when needed) and more defined bass from 80Hz and down.

Another thought is that the Magnepan is a superb speaker for Jazz and classical. It is a specialty speaker that needs lots of power and often takes some special care in room placement and setup. Those Maggie fans swear by them. I think the MMG are best with a good musical sub. However, the Emo speakers would not be as room placement dependent, especially with the room boundary compensation switch, mid and treble controls. (note: there is a mistake in the 6.2 specs ..... it does not have dipole/bipole settings).

2ea of the Emotiva ERM-6.3, Emo X-ref 12 and 2ea of the Emo UPA-1's (along with the USP-1, and XDA-1 if needed) are my idea of a near state-of-the-art 2 channel music system for an amazing price point. The ERM-6.2 would be a very close alternative for $400 less. The Emo X-Ref 10 sub might be just fine in a small to medium room for $200 less. The USP-1 and XDA-1 (if needed) are no-brainers for me. If these are not on sale now and you can be patient, they should be on sale at some time soon during an upcoming holiday.




The Nuts Best bang for the buck:

Highly Recommended
2ea ERM-6.2 ..... $398
1ea X-Ref 10 .... $499
USP-1 .... $404
2ea UPA-1 .... $628

Total ... $1929



A hair more highly recommended ;D
ERM-6.3 + $400



Possible
w/XDA-1 ....$224
X-Ref 12 + $200



Or close ;D
ERT-8.3 + $303 (no sub, no speaker stands)





Note: Emo 6.2 and 6.3 will need speaker stands, $100-$200/pr

(When you're retired you'll have time to write these long winded posts too. ;D ;D ;D)

[roadrunner]

Chet

The reason for getting the ERT-8.3 or ERM-6.3 speakers now is because of the extremely low price you would pay if you bought them now. The new Reference Series speakers with the folded ribbon tweeters will be out later this year, but they will cost you about double what you would pay to buy the close-outs now. You are likely to have a slight increase in sound quality by waiting for the new version speakers, but the sound quality of the current models is so outstanding you are not likely to regret saving some big bucks. As mentioned by another Lounge member, you could buy the USP-1 and still be ahead of the money needed to buy the new speakers coming later this year.

I bought three of the ERM-6.3 speakers at last year's Emofest. When combined with a musical sub woofer this combo of speakers will outperform other speakers costing two to three times as much. We have quite a few Lounge members who have the ERM-6.3 speakers anchoring their sound systems. If you are looking for speakers that very closely emulate real life sound you will love the Emotiva ERT-8.3 and ERM-6.3.

[garbulky]

Yes, a USP-1 is not a DAC. It is basically a very good volume control. The XDA-1is a DAC and volume control but it's volume control is *SLIGHTLY* flawed. But I use the XDA-1 myself without the USP-1 and it sounds excellent to me, but I do think it would sound better with a USP-1. (I haven't auditioned the USP-1). The USP-1 comes with a headphone amplifier on it as well so if you ever get a good set of headphones they will be a good choice.
Basically the way I look at it is like this: the USP-1 is OPTIONAL! If you have the money to spare, then get it, but in terms of all the other components the top prioritiy should go to the speakers, then the XDA-1 and UPA-1's, and the USP-1 last.
Now if you get a different DAC, that doesn't have a volume control (most don't), then you would need the USP-1 but with the XDA-1 you don't NEED it. The money is better spent on speakers...
And if you use the USP-1, you lose the balanced audio option (it is unbalanced), though that should make little difference.
To make it simple, I think you should go with what you've got planned on electronic components (XDA-1+2 UPA-1's) and go for whatever speakers you chose. The emotiva's even in its current version is a great choice and you won't be left unhappy. They are available on the clearance section on the bottom of the page.
Once you get it, if you find to your ears you notice a difference at low volumes, then you can get the USP-1, if you don't, don't even worry about it! THe XDA-1 is a really excellent product. Plus you get to go straight balanced from the XDA-1 to the UPA-1's direct.

[GreenKiwi]

Given that you're using your Airport Express as your source, I'd get an XDA-1 as effectively a digital pre-amp. If you don't plan on using the CD player, don't even bother hooking it up. (this is my current system.)

Then I'd get the UPA-1s for the amps.

For speakers, I think that you really should get out an listen to different speakers. I find that of all the parts of a system, they have the most ... uhh ... character. Being that they they are the electrical to mechanical transition, they often have the biggest variance in sonic signature. Finding some stores or friends who have speakers you can listen to will definitely help. I'd set your speaker budget at $1000-1700. There are lots in that range B&W, Dynaudio, Emotiva, etc.

Its also worth trying to find some planar speakers Martin Logans and Magnapans pop in to that area and both have some attractive options around $1500-1700. For jazz and classical they can really feel almost live.

I think that the other really interesting option would be the XDA-1 + Emotiva Airmotiv 6 speakers (mentioned earlier.) This creates a very nice simple solution and keeps your budget to just $1600 total. Though you might want to wait a month and see what the "stealth" Airmotiv speakers are that Dan talked about in his pod cast. He said that they were going to be more expensive, but they might still be under your $2k budget and it sounds like they are going to be a noticeable improvement over the 6s.

[Deleted]

Just remember that the Airmotiv's have fabulous dispersion and the Emo silk domes are excellent and sound very good even way off axis. If you go with some of the planar speakers you might find that they beam and change in sound character quickly if you move a little left, right, stand up, sit down, fight, fight, fight! Whoops, sorry, a little high school football game flashback there. If you always sit in the sweet spot that is no problem. That's why I am thinking of Martin Logan's for my bathroom. I very seldom move from the throne.

[yves]

I would probably take the active monitor nearfield listening route, as others have suggested. The XPA-2 has enough power to throw a party to the entire neighbourhood (in fact, my neigbours are enjoying my vinyl LP rip of Mastodon - "Crack The Skye" as I am playing it deafeningly loud right now). lol

[chet]

Does anyone know how long the ERT 8.3s are going to be on clearance?

I did hear the MMGs are hit or miss purely based on placement. While my listening space is only slightly bigger than a bathroom, I do like the option of moving!

Chet
ps. Also a big fan of Mastodon.

[roadrunner]

May 5, 2012 12:21:06 GMT -5 chet said:

Does anyone know how long the ERT 8.3s are going to be on clearance?

I did hear the MMGs are hit or miss purely based on placement. While my listening space is only slightly bigger than a bathroom, I do like the option of moving!

Chet
ps. Also a big fan of Mastodon.

Chet

If you can provide photos or a floor plan giving precise dimensions it will be much easier to assist you. If you have a really small listening room, you might be better off going with monitors and a sub woofer than using full size towers just because of speaker placement issues. As a rule of thumb, planar speakers need lots of room and require very precise placement for them to sound good. It is common to place planars 3 to 4 feet from the back and side walls.

The more details you can provide the more useful our responses will be.