|
|
Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 22:37:50 GMT -5
Anything I've read about filling a breaker panel has to do with not having an open spot for future expansion. It just makes it very inconvenient to add a circuit if the panel is full. Tandem breakers are only allowed in some panels. They will generally list total number of circuits allowed - and total number of breakers. My main panel allows tandems, my sub-panel does not (some sub-panels do though) Any panel that's designed for X circuits can be filled with X circuits. It's legal - and that's what it's designed for (AFAIK). Correct. Being "legal" is not in question, what's "recommendable" is. To each their own, but if it were "me" and I have a licensed electrician who's willing to perform the work at a reasonable cost, why not choose a better option?... I don't think I was contradicting anything you said.. No-no only because it makes it inconvenient to expand down the road. I completely agree with having an electrician do the work. That's sensible.  |
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff 
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Jul 7, 2012 23:28:26 GMT -5
I am sorry, I have not posted picture before. It seems to be a pain regarding the file size and not having option to post multiple pictures at once. Am I missing something? I love to post pictures but it is painful. The XPR-5 is now in the rack.. looking beautiful .. not powered yet until I figure out the outlet it needs.. You need 20AMP breaker and power plug. I think, and don't quote me, that you can use a standard IEC with 15AMP plug it's just the amp won't run to it's full potential. Don't quote me though... call it in to find out. I'd bet though you can use a regular IEC and 15A socket. FYI There is a dedicated 20A IEC on the amp so a standard IEC cord wont plug into it. |
|
Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
|
Post by Lonnie on Jul 7, 2012 23:33:56 GMT -5
Thanks. So I contacted 2 electricians to install 2 20A lines. 1 was an independent "C-10 Licensed" electrician and the other a licensed worker from a bigger company. The first quoted $700, which I thought was a little high but somewhat fair considering the distance from the breaker box to our living room (about 100 feet.) He said we could provide the materials and it would end up being $400 for the installation, which would take roughly 6 hours. The 2nd quoted me $2,500, haha. He was spewing what sounded like BS, mentioning something about how running Romex outside in a conduit is illegal and can't be done for runs longer than 6 feet? He said he would use some other wire, THHN I believe? and with Romex we might run into some grounding issues and end up with hum. Something to that effect. He was a bit arrogant about his credentials and mentioned that any service that quoted a price much cheaper would be unprofessional and unsafe. So I think i'm gonna go with the first guy, but i'd like to buy the materials myself to save some money. Can somebody with experience installing 20A lines verify what I need? I have a Square D breaker box. After some research, i'm looking to purchase: 1. 12 AWG Romex non-metallic 3 conductor with ground (2 runs, 1 for each breaker) 2. 2 x Square D Homeline 20-Amp Single Pole Circuit Breaker (1 for each 20A line) 3. Leviton 20A receptacle4. Southwire Liquidtite 1 in. X 100 ft. Ultratite Non-Metallic Conduit (for running the wire outside of the house to the breaker box) The main thing i'm not sure about is the Romex wire. Do I need a 2, 3, or 4 conductor? I wanna make sure there's no grounding hum issue when everything is said and done. Am I doing this right? Howdy Floss, I'm a licensed Master Electrician in the state of VA. you don't need to use conduit to run romex; it is designed to be run without a conduit as long as it's installed where it's listed to be installed. the code does not prohibit installing romex in listed conduits. it does state that conductors and raceways shall be protected where applicable. if you had to run on the outside of your house i would recommend romex from the panel to just before going outside the house at that point change over to pvc conduit (use a box) then run thwn conductors in it. once you get up, out and back into the house with the pvc, you can use another box and switch back over to romex and continue to the receptacle(s). make sure the pvc conduit is supported properly because of code and to ensure it doesn't "droop" or bow. some AHJ will allow you to use UF type romex cabling on the side of your house as long as it's in an area considered to be free of the chance for it to be damaged. if not, or not sure ahead of time, use the conduit. use the same size (and amount) conductors i list below when conductor sizes are mentioned. of course, if you can simply use romex. somewhere in your house there will be a chase that wiring goes up to the attic (look for the plumbing vent line and if you have gas for heating or cooking look for the vent at the roof it will give you an idea of where in the house it is) if your going through an attic then i recommend using #10awg to compensate for heating effect and there actually is a table in the NEC that tells you what needs to be done for attic wiring. for romex sizing, i would tell you that if your gonna hit the 100' mark then use #10/3 (black, red, white, bare copper ground inside the sheath) romex. this will compensate for the heat in the attic, the voltage drop for distance and give you 2 dedicated 20a circuits sharing a common neutral and ground. one circuit for the XPR-5 and one circuit for your remaining gear. for the neutral connection, make a splice for a pigtail and feed each neutral to each receptacle independently; do not pass through to the second receptacle. do the same for the ground; if you use a metal box, you must bond the ground to the box as well-you won't have to worry about that if your using plastic boxes. use deep boxes to give you wire space and proper bending space in the box(es). i recommend using a deep 2 gang box and place both outlets in the same box as long as the power cords for the XPR-5 and the power strip (or whatever multiplug) device your using for the other gear will reach without needing extension cords. in the panel, land your neutral and your ground on the proper buss or busses. you should have two single pole 20a breakers, one for each circuit, set those and wire them. after your devices are properly wired and set energize them and test for proper wiring. your good to go. feel free to print these out for your electrical contractor or individual licensed electrician. always ask to see their license. if they say they don't have it with them or they don't need one, find someone else to do the work. I am gathering your in the USA where the NEC is the law of the land in almost every state. some states, i.e. NYC has their own electrical code adopted from the NEC so you must follow their individual electrical code. you must also follow any applicable building codes (UBC). if your outside of the USA you need to get with a licensed electrician or licensed electrical contractor that knows the code of the country you live in. best of luck to you. i have run dedicated 20a circuits to my own HT gear and my office gear at my home too. don't take short cuts or chances. also make sure any and all splices and connections are tight. loose connections cause high resistance which causes oxidation which causes high temperature connections which cause voltage issues for your gear and the potential of fire in your house. i know this was long winded but, i hope it helps non the less! Listen to Uncle Solarrdadd; his Kung Fu is strong!  signing off! Excellent post Solarrdadd A long time ago in a land far, far away, I was a licensed electrician. But that was quite a few years ago but I don't think the NEC has changed all that much. Everything you recommended is just good solid advice. Using 10/3 is in my opinion the best way to go for this guy. It will easy handle the line losses during heating and will basically last the life of the house. Thanks for posting. Lonnie |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Jul 8, 2012 0:14:32 GMT -5
You need 20AMP breaker and power plug. I think, and don't quote me, that you can use a standard IEC with 15AMP plug it's just the amp won't run to it's full potential. Don't quote me though... call it in to find out. I'd bet though you can use a regular IEC and 15A socket. FYI There is a dedicated 20A IEC on the amp so a standard IEC cord wont plug into it. Thanks for clarifying Lonnie! And ya, fantastic post solarrdadd ! I'm curious what your opinion is regarding putting in an isolated ground and if it's really worth it in your opinion... and yours too Lonnie! |
|
|
|
Post by ekdream on Jul 8, 2012 0:36:31 GMT -5
Ok... I have a good news and theupdate. Since, I had already 20A dedicated circuits, I swapped the receptacle with GFCI 20A and wola... I am in the business.. lights are up, the New XPR-5 is dancing... The outlet tripped once as I was also running a small cooling fan. Once, I unplugged and started over, did not had the issue again. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by ekdream on Jul 8, 2012 0:40:01 GMT -5
Here is the pic with all blue LEDs.... It runs hotter than XPA-3 for sure... For couple of music track that I did listen to did not sound that different in my limited listening... for movies, WOW..... noticeable difference... Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by ekdream on Jul 8, 2012 0:49:49 GMT -5
I concur... It is pretty easy once you switch off the mail breaker... If you have old wiring there are changes that some of the 15A were very thick, twice as much as two 20A/15A available today... This come sin handy if there were no blanks were available on the panel. Just convert one into two circuits.. that's what my electrician did when I called him to pull the last line year. I watched him this and felt I could have done it myself, since I had all the rest of the working myself in the HT (cans etc)..... This is so simple but after reading all these post I'm confused.. Here ya go. 15amp breaker = 14/2 wire.....15amp outlet. 20amp breaker = 12/2 wire......20 amp outlet with one blade turned. Home electrical is VERY easy just shut off your main breaker and do it yourself. I just rewired my entire (old) house in a couple days. If all you are doing is running one line and you have access either through attic or basement don't let an electrician rip you off. |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Jul 8, 2012 0:55:39 GMT -5
Here is the pic with all blue LEDs.... It runs hotter than XPA-3 for sure... For couple of music track that I did listen to did not sound that different in my limited listening... for movies, WOW..... noticeable difference... Uh, what sort of statement is that, anyway??? C'mon, you gotta supply the details!!! ;D Like what made it such a "noticeable difference?" |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Jul 8, 2012 0:55:55 GMT -5
Ok... I have an good news and update. Since, I had already 20A dedicated circuits, I swapped the receptacle with GFCI 20A and wola... I am in the business.. lights are up, the New XPR-5 is dancing... The outlet tripped once as I was also running a small cooling fan. Once, I unplugged and started over, did not had the issue again. That GFI could introduce noise IMHO depending on how it works. Tomorrow you can run down to the local hardware shop and pickup a socket/receptacle for under $15 bucks. I'm surprised it runs hotter than XPA-3 as I figured due to design it would run COOLER. I guess it's the extra channel count/modules. BTW Emo I really like the new faceplate design. Sure as hell beats the silver squares and bright LED power buttons of past!  Hey ekdream can you try to take a picture of the unit low light with the LEDs set to the LOWEST brightness... I sure hope it's VERY LOW AND SOFT IE a front wall rack is doable without blowing your eyes out on the bloody LEDs. |
|
|
|
Post by ekdream on Jul 8, 2012 1:01:20 GMT -5
So you are suggesting that I do not need one with GFI, just a normal 20A outlet be suffice? Since there is no water or stuff short circuiting, the GFi here may not be needed... costs 1/3 too. I will appreciate your insight. Thanks. Ok... I have an good news and update. Since, I had already 20A dedicated circuits, I swapped the receptacle with GFCI 20A and wola... I am in the business.. lights are up, the New XPR-5 is dancing... The outlet tripped once as I was also running a small cooling fan. Once, I unplugged and started over, did not had the issue again. That GFI could introduce noise IMHO depending on how it works. Tomorrow you can run down to the local hardware shop and pickup a socket/receptacle for under $15 bucks. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Jul 8, 2012 1:08:54 GMT -5
So you are suggesting that I do not need one with GFI, just a normal 20A outlet be suffice? Since there is no water or stuff short circuiting, the GFi here may not be needed... costs 1/3 too. I will appreciate your insight. Thanks. That GFI could introduce noise IMHO depending on how it works. Tomorrow you can run down to the local hardware shop and pickup a socket/receptacle for under $15 bucks. Dude you DO NOT WANT GFCI as the GFCI circuit could possibly introduce electrical noise and cause other issues. Here is a tip... AVOID CHEAP DIMMERS as some cause just BRUTAL ELECTRICAL NOISE into your AC. If you're redoing the electrical I'd take a look at an APC conditioner/filter. 90% of the products in that market are complete BS but I can give a BIG THUMBS UP for the APC G50B-20A2. www.apc.com/products/apcav/products/index.cfm?action=detail&base_sku=G50B-20A2For a 100 bucks more you can get a network managed one that has an HTTP server and network control. $275-400 bucks on a deal... It comes with a cool little LED flashlight that fits in the front panel for use when farting around behind your gear. VERY HANDY and thoughtful design element IMHO... I love little engineering stuff like that... shows the EE's really cared about the design. That G50B-20A2 is a NATURAL ACCESSORY for the XPR-5 IMHO... It's like pepper on a toasted tomato sandwich IMHO... A MUST PS GET THIS BOOK FOR HOME ELECTRICAL! ISBN - 13: 978-1-58923-213-6 |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Jul 8, 2012 1:44:50 GMT -5
If you are really considering power conditioning etc the pure sine wave S20BLK conditioner is really the way to fly but it costs about a 1/4 of the amp's price. You can get modified sine with the J series but I won't bother with those models. Go filter or the S series.
It's a nice long term investment though and can really help prevent gear failure and money in the long run.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Jul 8, 2012 6:56:39 GMT -5
The S20 is only rated at about 10 amps - so that eliminates it for amps.
|
|
|
|
Post by doc1963 on Jul 8, 2012 7:08:51 GMT -5
Ok... I have a good news and theupdate. Since, I had already 20A dedicated circuits, I swapped the receptacle with GFCI 20A and wola... I am in the business.. lights are up, the New XPR-5 is dancing... The outlet tripped once as I was also running a small cooling fan. Once, I unplugged and started over, did not had the issue again. In this case, the GFCI itself is what caused the "trip". It was doing what it was designed to do by shutting down when it senses a sudden high amperage change on the circuit. Solidstate's response is, once again, correct. Simply change the outlet to a "standard" 20 amp receptacle and you are good to go. I can see from the photo that the romex is correct for the application (yellow jacket), so all should be fine. Please do report back after you've had the time to give it some good comparative listening as I'm considering the possibility of replacing both my XPA-2 and XPA-3 with one XPR-5.... |
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,865
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 8, 2012 9:34:29 GMT -5
The licensed electrician that I talked to earlier quoted me rigth around $600 to run two dedicated 20a 120v lines. He also told me if I wanted to save some money I could supply the 12-2 Romex electrical wire, the breaker and outlets and the charge would be in the $300-$350 range, depending on how accessible my attic was. The expert in the electrical department at Home Depot verified everything the electrician had me buy so I'm pretty comfortable now with the list of supplies that the electrician had me go and buy. I'm sure others here with electrical experience will correct me, but you only need the 12/2 type NM-B Romex with ground, this will have a 3 wires: white/black/ground. Home Depot sells this brand, SouthWire for $66.97 for 250 ft. I only had one breaker slot left to run these dedicated lines so he had me get a tandem 20-20 breaker, and mine is also a Square D breaker. Hope this helped.  LC, I've always had the perception that "maxing out" a circuit panel is generally a bad idea and that tandem breakers, although legal, are a no-no. I would recommend following Solidstate's advice and add a subpanel. Going the full gamut of isolated grounds, although advisable, is up to you, but I would definitely recommend considering the addition of a subpanel in your case. I did a bit of investigating on "tandem breakers" yesterday after getting all the supplies for these two dedicated lines. Knowing that I only had one breaker slot left the electrician still suggested I get the 20-20 tandem. Yesterday I read more than I care to on this subject and while I understand that my CTL rated panel either will or won't allow the tandem breaker because of the built-in safety fit, the panel maker, SquareD, only shows that one more breaker slot is available and doesn't say whether a tandem is allowed. Having said that, the NEC, UL and the manufacturers of these CTL rated panel have said tandem breakers are very much safe even though the panel itself is made to only accept a defined number of breakers. I came across an article on this subject that has a Formula for the amount of circuits that are allowed on class CTL panelboards. Take the amperage of the panelboard, multiply by the number of poles, and divide by 10. Mine CTL Square D panel happens to be a 125a panelboard with 2 poles, so I'm multilplying the 125a x 2 poles which gives 250 and dividing by 10 and that gives 25. Yet my panel actually only has 24, with the last breaker slot open. www.ashireporter.org/articles/articles.aspx?id=2047What say you "SolarrDadd" & Lonnie and the rest of you that are much more knowledgeable in these matters? I'd definitely like for SolarDad to chime in one way or the other. |
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,865
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 8, 2012 9:43:27 GMT -5
I will say that as long as my Square D panel allows it, the licensed electrician is ok with it, and the local codes allow it, then I'm likely to go with the Tandem 20-20 breaker. If any of those are not in agreement, then I'll only run one 20amp breaker in that last breaker slot. I don't want any situation that is not legal or allowed by local code(local code being the NEC 2005).
I also checked out my electrician with the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation and he came out clean in their Commercial & Residential complaints department and his Certified Electrician's certification is current as well.
I'll also add that my current home is not that large, just over a 1000sq/ft and this would be the last electrical expansion for me in this structure, as I don't plan on being here any more than 5 years time.
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,494
|
Post by DYohn on Jul 8, 2012 9:50:06 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with tandem breakers if you local codes allow them. And as to GFCI, I agree they do not belong anywhere near HT equipment. Indeed, I detest them in general and only use them where I absolutely have to.
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,865
|
Post by LCSeminole on Jul 8, 2012 10:05:38 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with tandem breakers if you local codes allow them. And as to GFCI, I agree they do not belong anywhere near HT equipment. Indeed, I detest them in general and only use them where I absolutely have to. Thanks David, that's what I thought and I just found out what the Local Code Model is(NEC 2005), so apparently the two dedicated 20a lines I'm wanting are very much within code for my situation. I was just wanting to be very cautious as I don't want to go against code or even my homeowners insurance. |
|
jordo
Emo VIPs
Posts: 176
|
Post by jordo on Jul 8, 2012 10:48:47 GMT -5
In my experience, I had an Oppo BDP-83, Onkyo 805, Panny PJ, 2x XPA-1 and XPA-5, 2 subs and 3 buttkickers, all powered by a single 15A outlet, with voltage/amp indication and I NEVER seen the total amps go over 8A, and that was with the XPA-1's almost in the red. If you want an easy way to run the XPR's to a 15A circuit see this... www.infinitecables.com/pop/pw-121.htm |
|
|
|
Post by danr on Jul 8, 2012 11:25:40 GMT -5
You need 20AMP breaker and power plug. I think, and don't quote me, that you can use a standard IEC with 15AMP plug it's just the amp won't run to it's full potential. Don't quote me though... call it in to find out. I'd bet though you can use a regular IEC and 15A socket. FYI There is a dedicated 20A IEC on the amp so a standard IEC cord wont plug into it. So that means this cord won't work: shop.emotiva.com/collections/interconnects/products/xiecSo, are there any plans for Emo to make available a 20A IEC version? |
|
