floss
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Post by floss on Jul 7, 2012 17:32:01 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info, this thread has definitely helped. I called the 1st guy and he offered to meet me at Lowes tomorrow to pick out all the materials needed, so that's definitely a big plus. I'm willing to pay an electrician (realistic quotes) to do the labor if it means I don't have to tear open drywall or tinker with a breaker box. This guy seems really nice and wants to help, we're going to run the wires through the attic instead of outside the house.
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 7, 2012 17:33:06 GMT -5
jejaudio is right about the moisture in the conduit. The romex I suggested is for dry location runs, like attics.
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 18:31:29 GMT -5
Under most code... typically THHN/THWN (etc) is what is required for conduit use. You'd buy individual reels and then run the number of wires you need. I say typically, because I believe you can run short lengths of romex in conduit - in a couple circumstances.
It generally comes out pretty similar in cost to romex -- you just may end up with more wire than you need.
Tons easier to pull through conduit - since you don't have the bulky and unwanted jacket.
EDIT: You can run NM cable via conduit without a problem as long as you meet the fill allowances. (I've read way too much of the NEC recently)
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Jul 7, 2012 18:42:59 GMT -5
... I wish, if I new about the need of separate adapter so could order that in advance... I read this on the Emotiva site regarding the XPR-5. Power Requirements: 115 VAC or 230 VAC +/- 10% @ 50 / 60 Hz (user selectable).
The XPR-5 requires a 20 Amp circuit and standard IEC 20 Amp outlet (which is different than a 15 Amp outlet).If you don’t have a proper circuit and outlet, we recommend you have one installed by a qualified electrician.We recommend that the XPR-5 be plugged into its own dedicated 20 Amp circuit.Was that added after you purchased?  While I don't have a problem running my own electrical wires (I'm well versed in the codes) I don't think there is any problem running this on a dedicated 120/15 circuit. If you blow the breaker, you should not be trying to weld with the amp. ;D Think about it. Just when are you going to be hitting 400x5 for any period of time that will cause a 15A circuit to trip? (note a 120/15 circuit is 1800W of available power just 200 short of a full bench test with resistors and sine waves) Besides bench testing, you won't do it with music/movies and speakers.  The adapter Dan mentioned should work fine. Now I would not put anything else on the circuit. I'm a realist not nuts. (well most of the time) |
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Post by GreenKiwi on Jul 7, 2012 19:56:33 GMT -5
That's very cool. I assume hat it's a 15A circuit breaker? |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 20:04:31 GMT -5
The 1520b (successor of the 1520) appears to have a 12a breaker, according to a review I read somewhere. Typical of many 15a strips, etc (It's derated; 80% of 15a)
Not quite clear on what the 1520 actually has though.
Edit: My suspicion is that that 1520b = with breaker. I've seen references to a 1520 that has no breaker at all - but some vendors don't seem to distinguish between the two.
So assuming the one you get is really a 1520b with breaker, I think the answer is 12a.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 7, 2012 20:50:29 GMT -5
I am sorry, I have not posted picture before. It seems to be a pain regarding the file size and not having option to post multiple pictures at once. Am I missing something? I love to post pictures but it is painful. The XPR-5 is now in the rack.. looking beautiful .. not powered yet until I figure out the outlet it needs.. You need 20AMP breaker and power plug. I think, and don't quote me, that you can use a standard IEC with 15AMP plug it's just the amp won't run to it's full potential. Don't quote me though... call it in to find out. I'd bet though you can use a regular IEC and 15A socket. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 20:52:42 GMT -5
It's been stated that Emotiva has run a XPR-5 on a 15a breaker for music (just not recommended as general practice). A decent cord with an IEC plug should work.
Should not be done for high SPL, movie or measurements.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 7, 2012 21:04:32 GMT -5
The worst that should happen is you'll blow the circuit breaker in your house.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 7, 2012 21:05:19 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info, this thread has definitely helped. I called the 1st guy and he offered to meet me at Lowes tomorrow to pick out all the materials needed, so that's definitely a big plus. I'm willing to pay an electrician (realistic quotes) to do the labor if it means I don't have to tear open drywall or tinker with a breaker box. This guy seems really nice and wants to help, we're going to run the wires through the attic instead of outside the house. Hey man if you're running new ROMEX etc I'd go all the way and do it right. I'd get an isolated ground for that circuit. When I do this I put in a small 40A subpanel just for the power plugs in the theater room on it's own ground that I put in (new rod) thus isolating the ground from the whole house. I also use BX and ground the armor to the box and panel. Get the BX with a ground wire not the stuff where you use the armor for ground. Also use Metal boxes to ground the armor. Get a surface mount panel and place it at/near the theater IE in a mechanical closet. You don't need shielded/BX to each power plug but what the hell if you can pull it off. On a new house build with a theater it's really short sighted IMHO to not give it an isolated ground with it's own 40A panel and run BX to ever powerplug. Make sure you hire someone ticketed if you go the isolated ground route as not doing it properly can be DANGEROUS and make sure it can be signed off for inspection. |
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Post by solarrdadd on Jul 7, 2012 21:22:07 GMT -5
Thanks. So I contacted 2 electricians to install 2 20A lines. 1 was an independent "C-10 Licensed" electrician and the other a licensed worker from a bigger company. The first quoted $700, which I thought was a little high but somewhat fair considering the distance from the breaker box to our living room (about 100 feet.) He said we could provide the materials and it would end up being $400 for the installation, which would take roughly 6 hours. The 2nd quoted me $2,500, haha. He was spewing what sounded like BS, mentioning something about how running Romex outside in a conduit is illegal and can't be done for runs longer than 6 feet? He said he would use some other wire, THHN I believe? and with Romex we might run into some grounding issues and end up with hum. Something to that effect. He was a bit arrogant about his credentials and mentioned that any service that quoted a price much cheaper would be unprofessional and unsafe. So I think i'm gonna go with the first guy, but i'd like to buy the materials myself to save some money. Can somebody with experience installing 20A lines verify what I need? I have a Square D breaker box. After some research, i'm looking to purchase: 1. 12 AWG Romex non-metallic 3 conductor with ground (2 runs, 1 for each breaker) 2. 2 x Square D Homeline 20-Amp Single Pole Circuit Breaker (1 for each 20A line) 3. Leviton 20A receptacle4. Southwire Liquidtite 1 in. X 100 ft. Ultratite Non-Metallic Conduit (for running the wire outside of the house to the breaker box) The main thing i'm not sure about is the Romex wire. Do I need a 2, 3, or 4 conductor? I wanna make sure there's no grounding hum issue when everything is said and done. Am I doing this right? Howdy Floss, I'm a licensed Master Electrician in the state of VA. you don't need to use conduit to run romex; it is designed to be run without a conduit as long as it's installed where it's listed to be installed. the code does not prohibit installing romex in listed conduits. it does state that conductors and raceways shall be protected where applicable. if you had to run on the outside of your house i would recommend romex from the panel to just before going outside the house at that point change over to pvc conduit (use a box) then run thwn conductors in it. once you get up, out and back into the house with the pvc, you can use another box and switch back over to romex and continue to the receptacle(s). make sure the pvc conduit is supported properly because of code and to ensure it doesn't "droop" or bow. some AHJ will allow you to use UF type romex cabling on the side of your house as long as it's in an area considered to be free of the chance for it to be damaged. if not, or not sure ahead of time, use the conduit. use the same size (and amount) conductors i list below when conductor sizes are mentioned. of course, if you can simply use romex. somewhere in your house there will be a chase that wiring goes up to the attic (look for the plumbing vent line and if you have gas for heating or cooking look for the vent at the roof it will give you an idea of where in the house it is) if your going through an attic then i recommend using #10awg to compensate for heating effect and there actually is a table in the NEC that tells you what needs to be done for attic wiring. for romex sizing, i would tell you that if your gonna hit the 100' mark then use #10/3 (black, red, white, bare copper ground inside the sheath) romex. this will compensate for the heat in the attic, the voltage drop for distance and give you 2 dedicated 20a circuits sharing a common neutral and ground. one circuit for the XPR-5 and one circuit for your remaining gear. for the neutral connection, make a splice for a pigtail and feed each neutral to each receptacle independently; do not pass through to the second receptacle. do the same for the ground; if you use a metal box, you must bond the ground to the box as well-you won't have to worry about that if your using plastic boxes. use deep boxes to give you wire space and proper bending space in the box(es). i recommend using a deep 2 gang box and place both outlets in the same box as long as the power cords for the XPR-5 and the power strip (or whatever multiplug) device your using for the other gear will reach without needing extension cords. in the panel, land your neutral and your ground on the proper buss or busses. you should have two single pole 20a breakers, one for each circuit, set those and wire them. after your devices are properly wired and set energize them and test for proper wiring. your good to go. feel free to print these out for your electrical contractor or individual licensed electrician. always ask to see their license. if they say they don't have it with them or they don't need one, find someone else to do the work. I am gathering your in the USA where the NEC is the law of the land in almost every state. some states, i.e. NYC has their own electrical code adopted from the NEC so you must follow their individual electrical code. you must also follow any applicable building codes (UBC). if your outside of the USA you need to get with a licensed electrician or licensed electrical contractor that knows the code of the country you live in. best of luck to you. i have run dedicated 20a circuits to my own HT gear and my office gear at my home too. don't take short cuts or chances. also make sure any and all splices and connections are tight. loose connections cause high resistance which causes oxidation which causes high temperature connections which cause voltage issues for your gear and the potential of fire in your house. i know this was long winded but, i hope it helps non the less! Listen to Uncle Solarrdadd; his Kung Fu is strong!  signing off! |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 21:40:27 GMT -5
The worst that should happen is you'll blow the circuit breaker in your house. Indeed. I was just alluding to Emotiva avoiding recommending a situation in which you could trip a breaker... but agreed, worst case you push it and breaker trips. No different than too much junk running and exceeding 15a (easy to do with space heater). |
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Post by doc1963 on Jul 7, 2012 21:50:22 GMT -5
The licensed electrician that I talked to earlier quoted me rigth around $600 to run two dedicated 20a 120v lines. He also told me if I wanted to save some money I could supply the 12-2 Romex electrical wire, the breaker and outlets and the charge would be in the $300-$350 range, depending on how accessible my attic was. The expert in the electrical department at Home Depot verified everything the electrician had me buy so I'm pretty comfortable now with the list of supplies that the electrician had me go and buy. I'm sure others here with electrical experience will correct me, but you only need the 12/2 type NM-B Romex with ground, this will have a 3 wires: white/black/ground. Home Depot sells this brand, SouthWire for $66.97 for 250 ft. I only had one breaker slot left to run these dedicated lines so he had me get a tandem 20-20 breaker, and mine is also a Square D breaker. Hope this helped.  LC, I've always had the perception that "maxing out" a circuit panel is generally a bad idea and that tandem breakers, although legal, are a no-no. I would recommend following Solidstate's advice and add a subpanel. Going the full gamut of isolated grounds, although advisable, is up to you, but I would definitely recommend considering the addition of a subpanel in your case. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 21:55:55 GMT -5
Anything I've read about filling a breaker panel has to do with not having an open spot for future expansion. It just makes it very inconvenient to add a circuit if the panel is full. Tandem breakers are only allowed in some panels. They will generally list total number of circuits allowed - and total number of breakers. My main panel allows tandems, my sub-panel does not (some sub-panels do though)
Any panel that's designed for X circuits can be filled with X circuits. It's legal - and that's what it's designed for (AFAIK).
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Post by RichGuy on Jul 7, 2012 21:58:36 GMT -5
How many people are going to come to the Lounge and complain that they can't plug it in! ;D |
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Post by solarrdadd on Jul 7, 2012 22:10:17 GMT -5
How many people are going to come to the Lounge and complain that they can't plug it in! ;D tons! the phrase being used that's not correct is "plug it in a normal outlet should be fine" not true. what most folks will take for a normal outlet is what they find in their home which is a standard 125v 15a outlet. the amp cord has a true 20a plug on the end of it so it won't be able to physically plug into a 15a outlet. in a modern home say built within the last 10 years the outlets on the kitchen counter should be of the 20a type on dedicated 20a circuits. all of the others (except the bathroom) will be standard 15a. people, if you can't have a dedicated 20a circuit run for this amp because you can't afford to have it done or you live in an apartment or a rental of some type and can't have it done, don't buy this amp. i'm not trying to knock emo either (cause i love them) but an adapter won't help you when this beast starts tripping circuit breakers the adapter is only going to let you plug your 20a device into a 15a breaker. most 20a receptacles are the combo type meaning they accept 15 or 20a plug configurations. of course there are true dedicated 20a receptacles (outlets) that are designed to be true 20a receptacles and won't accept 15a devices we call those intended purpose because it is designed and intended for true 20a plugs-like the emo amp! |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 22:24:18 GMT -5
The XPR-5 is intended to be used with a 20a outlet..... because it can use 20a of current.
I completely agree that you should use the right outlet for the right device..... However that being said, it's unlikely to draw enough to trip a 15 breaker when playing music... You're just not likely to draw 1800 constant watts. Having looked at what multiple XPA-1s draw on the same circuit....... Most content doesn't even get close to tripping a breaker.
Bear in mind that most of the time you may be using 1W of audio power...
If Emo shipped with a 3300 VA transformer and a 15a plug, people would have been real upset!
Get a Kill-A-Watt or Ammeter....... you may be surprised at what you're not drawing.
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Post by doc1963 on Jul 7, 2012 22:24:26 GMT -5
Anything I've read about filling a breaker panel has to do with not having an open spot for future expansion. It just makes it very inconvenient to add a circuit if the panel is full. Tandem breakers are only allowed in some panels. They will generally list total number of circuits allowed - and total number of breakers. My main panel allows tandems, my sub-panel does not (some sub-panels do though) Any panel that's designed for X circuits can be filled with X circuits. It's legal - and that's what it's designed for (AFAIK). Correct. Being "legal" is not in question, what's "recommendable" is. To each their own, but if it were "me" and I have a licensed electrician who's willing to perform the work at a reasonable cost, why not choose a better option?... |
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Post by Jim on Jul 7, 2012 22:26:55 GMT -5
There really is no excuse for not having a 20A outlet regardless..... If you're spending $2k on an amp, you should have the proper power for it.
I'm not advocating 15a outlets, just saying that short term it matters little.
Devices that vary in consumption the way audio amps do are few and far between (say, varying between 50 or 100 watts up to 3000+).
I'd like to see what an XPR-5 draws idle. I might even be willing to loan someone a Kill-A-Watt if they want to play.
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floss
Minor Hero
Posts: 34
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Post by floss on Jul 7, 2012 22:32:39 GMT -5
Solarrdadd, thank you for the most useful response i've received on any message forum. I'm going to print it out and give the guy a copy tomorrow to make sure everything is done to that standard. I'm gonna ask him to do an attic run for aesthetic purposes. If long lengths of 10awg 3 conductor + ground wire isn't too pricey, I will definitely opt for that. It seems like it should be worth it even if it is a bit more cash.
And Solidstate, appreciate the info about the subpanel and grounding recommendation. I'm definitely gonna go the extra mile when it comes to grounding because the biggest concern I have right now is that I will end up with a hum in my speakers. The electrician i'm working with seems to be reasonably knowledgeable (on his website it says he's certified C-10) but doesn't seem to have much experience with full-blown home theater set-ups like mine. He looked at my SubMersive subwoofers (he referred to it as a "box thing") and told me he's never seen a sub that size before (I'm sure that applies to 98% of the population out there though.) Hoping this all goes well, i'm gonna place the order for an XPR-5 tomorruh.
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