DC-1

[garbulky]

Sept 9, 2013 11:24:47 GMT -5 Jim said:

Sept 9, 2013 11:10:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

The point is to swap out the op-amp! It's a big hobby with people that like that stuff. It's not fringe but actively pursued in many forums. It's not second guessing the engineer, engineers work within constraints and some - not all - even pursue a certain sound. According to people that like to do it, it can change the sound signature for instance dark to bright, more bass, less bass. Aka to tube rolling.

I understand people who play with tubes, but when you're replacing an op-amp with another op-amp, I don't understand how the signature would really be different.

To me, it seems much like replacing a processor, with a processor, or a resistor with a resistor.

I'm not saying that people don't get different results, it just seems like any changes would be REALLY subtle?

I've never done it myself but I've read reviews of people who have swapped op-amps on the xonar essence st with differing results some positive, some negative. Some even use combos to get the sound to how they like. They mentioned most of the time the sound changes are subtle. But that's the reason people buy DACS and higher end audio worth so much money right? The price to actual performance difference is an exponentially negative curve. The XDA-1 measured flat and had incredibly low distortion, essentially inaudible snr, and sold at about $250 clearance. The DC-1 is $900 mistake $699. But people find the DC-1 better for some reason even if it's somewhat subtle - makes it worth it for them. I hope to buy the DC-1 or whatever reference DAC emotiva has when it comes out.



There's a guy called nwavguy who feels that op-amp swapping is complete crock fwiw. So it is what it is, I guess. Someday I hope to try op-amp swapping on my xonar esseence st which is designed for it.
Here is the op-amp swap thread for the essence.
www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread

Sept 9, 2013 11:19:54 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Sept 9, 2013 11:10:11 GMT -5 garbulky said:

The point is to swap out the op-amp! It's a big hobby with people that like that stuff. It's not fringe but actively pursued in many forums. It's not second guessing the engineer, engineers work within constraints and some - not all - even pursue a certain sound. According to people that like to do it, it can change the sound signature for instance dark to bright, more bass, less bass. Aka to tube rolling.

We know the point is to swap out opamps but unlike tube rolling, messing with opamps is probably going to void the warranty. I know if I were the manufacturer I'd not honor any warranty if someone changed the opamps and then reported problems. Tubes are different. People are free to do whatever they want to a component since they own it, including changing the caps, resistors, wiring, etc., but my point is that is not condoned by the manufacturer and will void the warranty. I'd say the majority of equipment owners don't want to mess with that.

Agreed.
But
1. If the op-amp was truly swappable (not soldiered into place), then it would be hard to prove it was swapped in the first place causing a failure. Nick has mentioned the op-amp is actually fixed and unable to be swapped easily so the poster talking about sockets op-amps and being able to be swapped may be simply incorrect.
2. As for warranty issues, unapproved modifications, majority of people not wanting to do so etc. It's sort of different strokes for different folks. Some like modifications, others don't. I think it's clear that Emotiva does not approve op-amp swapping for the DC-1 (or it's not possible). This would cause the warranty to be void. But ....I'm not a mom I like the idea of experiments as I think it's fun. If the op-amps are swappable I think those interested, willing to risk warranty problems/failure, and know their compatibility stuff should have a go. Why not?

[Jim]

Sept 9, 2013 11:47:51 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I've never done it myself but I've read reviews of people who have swapped op-amps on the xonar essence st with differing results some positive, some negative. Some even use combos to get the sound to how they like. They mentioned most of the time the sound changes are subtle. But that's the reason people buy DACS and higher end audio worth so much money right? The price to actual performance difference is an exponentially negative curve. The XDA-1 measured flat and had incredibly low distortion, essentially inaudible snr, and sold at about $250 clearance. The DC-1 is $900. But people find the DC-1 better for some reason even if it's somewhat subtle - makes it worth it for them. I hope to buy the DC-1 or whatever reference DAC emotiva has when it comes out.

There's a guy called nwavguy who feels that op-amp swapping is complete crock fwiw. So it is what it is, I guess. Someday I hope to try op-amp swapping on my xonar esseence st which is designed for it.

Interesting.. Thanks, appreciate your comments.

[garbulky]

Sept 9, 2013 11:51:52 GMT -5 Jim said:

Sept 9, 2013 11:47:51 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I've never done it myself but I've read reviews of people who have swapped op-amps on the xonar essence st with differing results some positive, some negative. Some even use combos to get the sound to how they like. They mentioned most of the time the sound changes are subtle. But that's the reason people buy DACS and higher end audio worth so much money right? The price to actual performance difference is an exponentially negative curve. The XDA-1 measured flat and had incredibly low distortion, essentially inaudible snr, and sold at about $250 clearance. The DC-1 is $900. But people find the DC-1 better for some reason even if it's somewhat subtle - makes it worth it for them. I hope to buy the DC-1 or whatever reference DAC emotiva has when it comes out.

There's a guy called nwavguy who feels that op-amp swapping is complete crock fwiw. So it is what it is, I guess. Someday I hope to try op-amp swapping on my xonar esseence st which is designed for it.

Interesting.. Thanks, appreciate your comments.

You're welcome. It's really just my opinion. Here's the thread on the op-amp swapping for the xonar in case you missed my edit.
www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread

[Jim]

Sept 9, 2013 11:53:29 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Sept 9, 2013 11:51:52 GMT -5 Jim said:

Interesting.. Thanks, appreciate your comments.

You're welcome. It's really just my opinion. Here's the thread on the op-amp swapping for the xonar in case you missed my edit.
www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread

I did miss that - I'm reading it now. Thanks!

[GreenKiwi]

Sept 9, 2013 9:07:35 GMT -5 Nick said:

Posted by theoctavist5 hours ago

Sep 5, 2013 at 11:44am Dan Laufman said:
There are no swappable op amps on the DC-1...
, sir. unless i am blind, i am seeing LM 4562s of the socketed variety, which indeed *are* swappable(and some would say improved on) with burson op amps, sun audio op amps, etc.

www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/OPA/OPAEN.htm

I suppose any component is swappable if you want to get down to it but the LM4562 op-amps in the DC-1 are not socketed, they are soldered directly to the PCB. This is why Dan said there are no swappable op-amps in the DC-1. Hopefully this clears things up for you.

Yeah, maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any socketed opamps in the picture:



Everything looks soldered down.

[klinemj]

Garbulky...One correction...DC1 is 699

Mark

[KeithL]

Different people notice different things... and the standard measurements don't tell the whole story.

I'm the first person to say that there is no such thing as an audible difference that CAN'T be measured, but we also don't measure everything.

If you hear a difference, and the measurements show that there is no difference, then there are only two possibilities:

1) the difference is in your head
2) the difference is real, and you just aren't measuring the right thing (or measuring it accurately enough)

Nwavguy has a point, but sometimes he oversimplifies. His 0DAC design works pretty well, but it uses a Sabre DAC chip - and sounds noticeably different than, say, one of ours - which uses a different chip.

So, how can this be, since both have very flat frequency response and very low distortion?

Well, for one thing, the digital filters are different; this doesn't show up significantly on steady state measurements (like THD), but, if you look at the response to transients, they are quite different. And it IS pretty obvious on a 'scope trace. Even beyond that, his 0DAC sounds somewhat different than other DACs that use the SAME DAC chip; I assume that's because of differences in some other parameter... nothing happens without a reason. His 0DAC is also USB powered, and the USB power coming from some computers is very dirty. Because of this, when connected to some (just some) computers, his 0DAC has a very loud and annoying noise floor (when that happens, adding a USB power isolator fixes it right up). His choice was NOT to add isolation, which would have raised the cost about $30, and would only matter to some people in some situations; therefore, his DAC will sound different in certain situations, where some other DAC may not exhibit any difference at all.

So, do different Op Amps sound different or not?

Well, yes and no.

Various Op Amps have all sorts of different electrical parameters, which may or may not cause two of them to perform differently, often depending on the surrounding circuitry.
If you check out the Data Sheet for a typical op amp, it has dozens of specifications - and those are only the "common" ones.
There are dozens MORE things you could measure if you wanted to.

USUALLY, two op amps, performing within specification, and within "acceptable limits", won't sound audibly different.
USUALLY, if two op amps DO sound audibly different, it's because one or both of them is being asked to operate OUTSIDE recommended limits.

Clearly Asus (with their Xonar Essence) have chosen to design a circuit that will accept and run reasonably well with several different op amps. Furthermore, I strongly suspect they made sure that the differences in operating parameters WOULD produce audible changes in sound (rather that adjusting their design to MINIMIZE those differences). Just imagine a car company, for whatever reason, tuning an engine so it would run rough with cheap gas... or so it would run different with each grade of gas... so you could have the "fun" of "discovering" which gas runs best with your car; while another car company designs their car to run equally well with whatever you dump in the tank.

Sept 9, 2013 11:47:51 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Sept 9, 2013 11:24:47 GMT -5 Jim said:

I understand people who play with tubes, but when you're replacing an op-amp with another op-amp, I don't understand how the signature would really be different.

To me, it seems much like replacing a processor, with a processor, or a resistor with a resistor.

I'm not saying that people don't get different results, it just seems like any changes would be REALLY subtle?

I've never done it myself but I've read reviews of people who have swapped op-amps on the xonar essence st with differing results some positive, some negative. Some even use combos to get the sound to how they like. They mentioned most of the time the sound changes are subtle. But that's the reason people buy DACS and higher end audio worth so much money right? The price to actual performance difference is an exponentially negative curve. The XDA-1 measured flat and had incredibly low distortion, essentially inaudible snr, and sold at about $250 clearance. The DC-1 is $900 mistake $699. But people find the DC-1 better for some reason even if it's somewhat subtle - makes it worth it for them. I hope to buy the DC-1 or whatever reference DAC emotiva has when it comes out.



There's a guy called nwavguy who feels that op-amp swapping is complete crock fwiw. So it is what it is, I guess. Someday I hope to try op-amp swapping on my xonar esseence st which is designed for it.
Here is the op-amp swap thread for the essence.
www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread

Sept 9, 2013 11:19:54 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

We know the point is to swap out opamps but unlike tube rolling, messing with opamps is probably going to void the warranty. I know if I were the manufacturer I'd not honor any warranty if someone changed the opamps and then reported problems. Tubes are different. People are free to do whatever they want to a component since they own it, including changing the caps, resistors, wiring, etc., but my point is that is not condoned by the manufacturer and will void the warranty. I'd say the majority of equipment owners don't want to mess with that.

Agreed.
But
1. If the op-amp was truly swappable (not soldiered into place), then it would be hard to prove it was swapped in the first place causing a failure. Nick has mentioned the op-amp is actually fixed and unable to be swapped easily so the poster talking about sockets op-amps and being able to be swapped may be simply incorrect.
2. As for warranty issues, unapproved modifications, majority of people not wanting to do so etc. It's sort of different strokes for different folks. Some like modifications, others don't. I think it's clear that Emotiva does not approve op-amp swapping for the DC-1 (or it's not possible). This would cause the warranty to be void. But ....I'm not a mom I like the idea of experiments as I think it's fun. If the op-amps are swappable I think those interested, willing to risk warranty problems/failure, and know their compatibility stuff should have a go. Why not?

[Deleted]

Thanks Emotiva for pointing out how inferior my iTunes music is in comparison to the CD version with the DC-1. The DC-1 makes the difference REALLY obvious and not in a good way. Damn! Now I have to re-buy a lot of music. Shame on me for believing the difference was minimal.

[Deleted]

As an update, got my Schiit Loki hooked up through the DC-1 analog input and it all works like a charm. As a very cursory preview of the Loki, build quality is not as good as previous Schiit gear, but the sound is quite good for $150 DSD DAC. No complaints thus far.

[garbulky]

Sept 10, 2013 18:40:25 GMT -5 @balthazar2k4 said:

Thanks Emotiva for pointing out how inferior my iTunes music is in comparison to the CD version with the DC-1. The DC-1 makes the difference REALLY obvious and not in a good way. Damn! Now I have to re-buy a lot of music. Shame on me for believing the difference was minimal.

All is not lost! Rip your CD's onto your PC and use a bit perfect plugin (like mediamonkey configured with WASAPI output) and it should work pretty darn well with your CD's showing up just once to put in on the hard drive. Also itunes also has a lossless version of their songs which are pretty decent quality. There are converters that you can use to make itunes fles play in windows programs.

[Deleted]

Sept 11, 2013 19:28:02 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Sept 10, 2013 18:40:25 GMT -5 @balthazar2k4 said:

Thanks Emotiva for pointing out how inferior my iTunes music is in comparison to the CD version with the DC-1. The DC-1 makes the difference REALLY obvious and not in a good way. Damn! Now I have to re-buy a lot of music. Shame on me for believing the difference was minimal.

All is not lost! Rip your CD's onto your PC and use a bit perfect plugin (like mediamonkey configured with WASAPI output) and it should work pretty darn well with your CD's showing up just once to put in on the hard drive. Also itunes also has a lossless version of their songs which are pretty decent quality.

Haha, thanks Garbulky, but that isn't my problem. I have all of my CDs ripped to FLAC already. The problem is the vast amount of music that I purchased through the iTunes store during my "it's good enough" phase that I am kicking myself over. I have tons of music in 24/192, 24/88, and even DSD, but some of my favorites right now is in good ol' iTunes Music m4a goodness. Ah well, lesson learned. I knew I should have trusted my gut instinct and realized convenience is not always a good thing.

[GreenKiwi]

Random question. Do others with DC-1s, notice an audible mechanical click when switching to/from the analog input? I'm assuming its a solenoid or the like. But figured it was worth just double checking that it was normal and expected.

[thorcorps]

Sept 15, 2013 12:29:02 GMT -5 GreenKiwi said:

Random question. Do others with DC-1s, notice an audible mechanical click when switching to/from the analog input? I'm assuming its a solenoid or the like. But figured it was worth just double checking that it was normal and expected.

Yeah GK, you're fine. Same relay click as when it turns on.

[hemster]

Sept 15, 2013 12:29:02 GMT -5 GreenKiwi said:

Random question. Do others with DC-1s, notice an audible mechanical click when switching to/from the analog input? I'm assuming its a solenoid or the like. But figured it was worth just double checking that it was normal and expected.

I too get this click on switching as you say. Also get that on initial startup. It is indeed a switching relay and it is normal. That said, I no longer use the analog input from my Squeezebox as I prefer the DC-1's DAC. 

[GreenKiwi]

I never turn mine off... Glad to hear its normal, as I'd thought... But it never hurts to ask.

I have my TT going into the analog

[roadrunner]

Sept 15, 2013 16:14:57 GMT -5 hemster said:

Sept 15, 2013 12:29:02 GMT -5 GreenKiwi said:

Random question. Do others with DC-1s, notice an audible mechanical click when switching to/from the analog input? I'm assuming its a solenoid or the like. But figured it was worth just double checking that it was normal and expected.

I too get this click on switching as you say. Also get that on initial startup. It is indeed a switching relay and it is normal. That said, I no longer use the analog input from my Squeezebox as I prefer the DC-1's DAC. 

The mechanical clicking noise you hear coming from the DC-1 is coming from instrumentation grade relays with silver clad contacts -- very similar to the input selection used on the XSP-1. Even the analog volume level control is via a set of high performance, high voltage, digitally controlled analog resistor ladder networks with 0.5dB per step resolution.

[brubacca]

Is everyone still using/liking the DC-1 DAC?

[klinemj]

Love mine.

Mark

[wiskers]

Couldn't live without it!

[danny01]

Has anyone upgraded to the DC-1 from an XDA-2 (both as digital preamps)? I'm thinking about ditching my Parasound and using my XDA-2 as my pre or buying a DC-1 to use as a pre. XLR's will connect to XPA-1L's and RCA's to minidsp to subs in either case.