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Post by ocezam on Dec 15, 2012 17:45:34 GMT -5
And anybody is going to say that their $20k amp sounds better than a $2k amp. If they didn't, then they'd be admitting that they just wasted $18k! Real men don't do that................  I feel like the $20k amp is better, therefore I can hear it! Yes, that's it. That's pretty accurate IMO. A friend of mine has a two channel setup that costs around 100k. He has Focal Nova Utopia's powered by Pass Labs monoblocks and I am not blown away by any means. I feel like my 10cent system gives his a run for the money at a fraction of the cost. And I bet it does. Have you ever told him so? Did he take it well? A person can spend absurd amounts of money in this hobby (100K! Please!) and extra fidelity, when there actually is some, can be rather small. .. |
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Post by kzone on Dec 16, 2012 8:50:21 GMT -5
Mr Dan Laufman, I presume you would have done a shootout between the XPA1 & XPR1 in a stereo setup with the XSP1. Would appreciate if you can share your opinions. Thanks!
I'm currently an XPA1/XSP1 user in Asia so not really feasible to take up the 30 days return offer on the XPR1s.
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Post by Poodleluvr on Dec 16, 2012 13:31:39 GMT -5
Dear Mr. Laufman:
I kindly request the same of your opinion of the XPA-1 versus the XPR-1.
I'm a XPA-1, XSP-1, and XDA-1 owner too.
I appreciate the free shipping but would rather not waste your company money on shipping costs and then spend my money shipping two 113 pound boxes back to Emotiva.
I respect your opinion although I fully understand that regardless of your opinion, my opinion may differ.
Once again, I request your opinion on this matter for a 2 channel stereo setup.
Feel free to sell me on the idea that I should upgrade my "Flagship" XPA-1s to the "Reference" XPR-1s.
Thank you.
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Post by Jim on Dec 16, 2012 14:40:49 GMT -5
Emotiva isn't a "Home Theater" company. Well, they sure fooled me! I would have sworn that the 5 channel power amp and 5 speakers including LCR and two surround speakers that I bought several years ago had "Emotiva" on them. Also I would swear the the XMC-1 7.2 Channel Preamplifier/Processor that I have on pre-order is also from Emotiva. ;D ;D ;D OK, so I should have said "only" a HT company... With that setup, maybe you're just really into multichannel audio??? You don't HAVE to use it for movies............ ;D ;D ;D |
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Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs 
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by Erwin.BE on Dec 16, 2012 15:02:47 GMT -5
If anyone is seriously contemplating paying an electrician to run a dedicated 115V 20A circuit, first get a quote for running a dedicated 220V line. The cost should be comparable and all Emotiva amps automatically sense and adjust to input voltage. Your amp will pull half the amperage from the wall at 220V as it does on 110V. Actually, the XPR-5 doesn't autoselect. But it's simple, you need nothing but a toothpick. Mine came in wrongly set to 110V, while all previous amps I bought were set to 230V. BTW I modified the very thick powercord with a Belgian type heavy duty powerplug. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 16, 2012 18:20:56 GMT -5
BTW I modified the very thick powercord with a Belgian type heavy duty powerplug. Is that anything like a heavy duty Belgian beer? Tripel Phase!  |
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Post by Golden Ear on Dec 16, 2012 21:27:53 GMT -5
I think many people don't realize as the power goes up its series line change as well. Every Emotiva amp design share same principle design from their entry level to their flagship. Don't expect going from UPA series to XPR will give you intergalactic change in SQ. I bet you in blind test set them up same level you wont be able to tell the difference. They have done this study in blind test before and majority of them can't tell the difference between 200 dollars amp and 2000 dollars amp on same level.
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 16, 2012 21:37:51 GMT -5
A totally subjective and unsubstantiated statement. Blatantly wrong when you have single ended, fully balanced differential, Class A, Class ab, and Class H type designs packaged in single and several multi amplifier packages.
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Post by flamingeye on Dec 16, 2012 21:51:11 GMT -5
^+1
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Post by Golden Ear on Dec 16, 2012 22:13:28 GMT -5
A totally subjective and unsubstantiated statement. Blatantly wrong when you have single ended, fully balanced differential, Class A, Class ab, and Class H type designs packaged in single and several multi amplifier packages. Technical tour de force would mean nothing if you can't hear it. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 16, 2012 22:16:40 GMT -5
I think many people don't realize as the power goes up its series line change as well. Every Emotiva amp design share same principle design from their entry level to their flagship. Don't expect going from UPA series to XPR will give you intergalactic change in SQ. I bet you in blind test set them up same level you wont be able to tell the difference. They have done this study in blind test before and majority of them can't tell the difference between 200 dollars amp and 2000 dollars amp on same level. I've seen a study that compared a number of high-end amps and there didn't seem to be any statistically significance in any amp sounding better than any other - in a double blind test. I'm trying to find a link to the study. However........ It's just one study. I'd say that there are plenty of differences among $200 amps, and among $2k amps. Just because they share a price point doesn't mean much. I agree that going from a UPA to XPR or XPA won't be a mind blowing experience, but I think that there is an audible one. Most owners will agree that the difference was audible when they upgraded. There are lots of things to take into account....... like what speakers are being driven and at what levels. The fact that there isn't a massive difference is more a testament to the consistency of Emotiva amps and their build quality. Even the budget amps perform well. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Dec 17, 2012 1:46:53 GMT -5
We don't spec the XPR-1 into lower than 4 ohms because it isn't designed to dissipate the amount of heat involved long term. is there measurements for 3ohms or lower? thanks, wps |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Dec 17, 2012 2:01:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that statement is a bit of what we call "marketing hyperbole".... HOWEVER, people have run tests and, believe it or not, the majority of people can't tell the difference between amplifier types - especially when they're all run well below clipping. It kind of makes you wonder if, just maybe, all the statements about how "Class A amps just obviously sound better" may ALSO be marketing hyperbole. And, face it, we're up at a level where the differences, when they exist at all, are not all that dramatic. To make matters worse, there's this thing called "acoustic memory" (or lack of it), which means that, even if you can hear the difference side by side, walking out of the room and back again (say 60 seconds), pretty well ruins your ability to hear all but dramatic differences. So, if I were to sit that $20 ML next to an XPR-1, play each one for you, send you out of the room, then call you back a minute later, and ask you to tell me which one was playing, would you bet, oh, let's say, $18,000 that you could tell the difference? Personally, I wouldn't be prepared to spend that sort of change unless I was pretty darned sure. (And I would say that the burden of proof is on THEM to prove they're worth $18,000 more, not on us to prove they aren't.) Or, let's compare the XPR-1 (running at 100 watts, where it's barely breaking a sweat) against someone else's 100 watt class A amp - which could easily cost you twice or more it's price tag. I do wonder which would sound better.... and, of course, the XPR-1 would have, shall we say, a good few hundred watts left in reserve. A totally subjective and unsubstantiated statement. Blatantly wrong when you have single ended, fully balanced differential, Class A, Class ab, and Class H type designs packaged in single and several multi amplifier packages. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 17, 2012 2:48:01 GMT -5
So Keith, there's a number going around that an XPA-1 is biased for 10 Watts of Class A before going to B, will Emo release a "Class A Rating" for the XPR-1? Going by the idle current and heat output reported for the XPR-5 I'd expect it to be lower, but it keeps being asked, so ...?
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Post by kzone on Dec 17, 2012 10:28:34 GMT -5
Keith, so if I only need only 100w/channel, I will not hear a diff between the upa200 vs xpa1 vs xpr1 in a stereo setup?
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Post by garbulky on Dec 17, 2012 10:43:02 GMT -5
Keith, so if I only need only 100w/channel, I will not hear a diff between the upa200 vs xpa1 vs xpr1 in a stereo setup? Well the question of the day is how do you know you really only need 100 watts per channel. You have to think of those quick loud dynamic transients like the sudden hit of a piano or the kick of a drum. most listening is done at a few watts to get you around 80 to 90 db comfortably but you need the headroom which may demand several hundreds of watts on a loud piano strike. One post here said that to capture the true dynamic range of a piano hit it could take upto seven hundred watts of power over a very short period of time. |
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Post by Golden Ear on Dec 17, 2012 11:09:06 GMT -5
All amps has rated RMS as well as dynamic power for high energy peak that last for short period of time. Larger caps value allow to store energy that are use in bass transient attack as well high energy peak during loud passage. The most important factor of an amps its not its dynamics but its continues RMS power rated from 20hz to 20khz. Many are rated at 1khz but when you factor that to full spectrum you will get less.
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 17, 2012 11:38:44 GMT -5
My post was in response to Golden eye's post immediately above, not the thread title which I recognize as marketing hype. There are meaningfull differences in the Emotiva line in design. To say that a 50 watt design sounds the same as a 500 or 1000 watt design is subjectively silly. What speaker are they driving and are they matched to the particular speaker or under or over sized. I have Maggies and they need power to shine. The XPA-1s make them sing with nary a transient clip or distortion. Horn speakers may shine their best with less powerful amps. And I don't even want to get into the dynamic power demands that some sources are capable of delivering that may cause clipping to occur. Do I have to have Maggies and 500 watt amplifiers to have a great system - of course not. I might have a flea powered tube amp driving a +100db efficient horn and also have a great system. Would they sound the same - no way - but would they each be enjoyable in their own right - you bet. Does one fine amp sound different than another simarly rated fine amp - perhaps. Damping factor can make it sound different for instance. Discussions of the term 'damping factor' as defined by amp manufactures is exasperating since it is an open loop measurement only in an approximate attempt to signify the transient response of an electrical signal to movement of air. If the true closed loop damping factor could be measured (perhaps if we were dealing with a servo controlled speaker) we would find a damping factor of only 0.6 is ideal as it reproduces a square wave with no overshoot or underdamping. But the rise time or speed of response or bandwith of the system will still determine how steeply the signal rises and thus duplicates the step function. Can one hear these types of differences - I think so in that it creates a palpable realism.
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Post by Golden Ear on Dec 17, 2012 12:10:30 GMT -5
My post was in response to Golden eye's post immediately above, not the thread title which I recognize as marketing hype. There are meaningfull differences in the Emotiva line in design. To say that a 50 watt design sounds the same as a 500 or 1000 watt design is subjectively silly. What speaker are they driving and are they matched to the particular speaker or under or over sized. I have Maggies and they need power to shine. The XPA-1s make them sing with nary a transient clip or distortion. Horn speakers may shine their best with less powerful amps. And I don't even want to get into the dynamic power demands that some sources are capable of delivering that may cause clipping to occur. Do I have to have Maggies and 500 watt amplifiers to have a great system - of course not. I might have a flea powered tube amp driving a +100db efficient horn and also have a great system. Would they sound the same - no way - but would they each be enjoyable in their own right - you bet. Does one fine amp sound different than another simarly rated fine amp - perhaps. Damping factor can make it sound different for instance. Discussions of the term 'damping factor' as defined by amp manufactures is exasperating since it is an open loop measurement only in an approximate attempt to signify the transient response of an electrical signal to movement of air. If the true closed loop damping factor could be measured (perhaps if we were dealing with a servo controlled speaker) we would find a damping factor of only 0.6 is ideal as it reproduces a square wave with no overshoot or underdamping. But the rise time or speed of response or bandwith of the system will still determine how steeply the signal rises and thus duplicates the step function. Can one hear these types of differences - I think so in that it creates a palpable realism. There are some speaker required more power to shine but in double blind test using same level can you hear the difference? majority of listener can't and this has been done in a study with very good ear and has background in music. Don't let marketing hyperbole gets you, just trust your ear. Google is your answer! ;D |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 17, 2012 12:54:28 GMT -5
Golden ear - You probably also think that a paint-by-number piece of artwork is equivalent to a Renoir. Subjectively that is nonsense, but I could accept that better since art is subjective in nature. Electro-mechanical design is objective science. The essence of a good amplifier design (actually I should say a good sound system design) is one that delivers a sound wave to you ears that duplicates the source sound. Design by ear or feel or whatever your subjective measurement device, is absolute nonsense in this case. Steady state response (frequency response) is not the whole story. Transient response is also important. A good transient response will require a frequency response well beyond the widely 20 - 20,000 that everyone throws around. I'll trust measurements above my own ears any day, because that better performing amp will be discernibly more accurate on some source material if not all. Marketing hype doesn't show up on a scope or frequency analyser.
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I feel like the $20k amp is better, therefore I can hear it! Yes, that's it. 
