The XPA-5 vs. The Butler

[Deleted]

I know that one of the albums on which I heard the sibilance was John McLaughlin's "Floating Point". I am gonna listen to it again today and see if I still agree with myself <g>.

...(Half-hour later) Well, that is one *hot* recording - and that ain't the good kinda hot. I couldn't listen for more than a couple of songs, total nails on a chalkboard sound.

So, I put on "The Best of REM" which is a good-sonding DVD-Audio disc. This was not nearly so hot, but I still hear *some* sibilance and "splashy" cymbals. The Butler did *not* do this. In trade-off, the XPA-5 plays friggin' LOUD. But there is no way I'm gonna damage my hearing by listening to 100db avg. levels for more than 10-15 minutes at a time.

Once you damage your hearing there ain't no repairing it - NEVER FORGET THAT!

-RW-

[Deleted]

This is just me but a lot of these differences could be in our heads.

I've owned numerous Emo amps. UPA-2, UPA-1's, XPA-2, XPA-5.

My Mini X sounds exactly the same as my XPA-1's.

I've also owned numerous gain clone amps, Sunfire amps, Carver amps and tube amps, all sounding the same......

YMMV

[sharkman]

It sounds like you have never heard sibilance since you've had the same results with different components in your experience. Siblilance is irritating and takes away from the experience, and for me was easily repeatable when I was comparing the XPA and Parasound amp. It's not in one's head.

As has been mentioned, it depends on the speaker used, perhaps yours are more forgiving.

[Topend]

Feb 2, 2013 11:42:08 GMT -5 @rlw said:

I know that one of the albums on which I heard the sibilance was John McLaughlin's "Floating Point". I am gonna listen to it again today and see if I still agree with myself <g>.

...(Half-hour later) Well, that is one *hot* recording - and that ain't the good kinda hot. I couldn't listen for more than a couple of songs, total nails on a chalkboard sound.

So, I put on "The Best of REM" which is a good-sonding DVD-Audio disc. This was not nearly so hot, but I still hear *some* sibilance and "splashy" cymbals. The Butler did *not* do this. In trade-off, the XPA-5 plays friggin' LOUD. But there is no way I'm gonna damage my hearing by listening to 100db avg. levels for more than 10-15 minutes at a time.

Once you damage your hearing there ain't no repairing it - NEVER FORGET THAT!

-RW-

I will listen to The Best of REM later today. Is there any particular track or part of a track that demonstrates the sibilance?

Dave.

[Deleted]

>> I will listen to The Best of REM later today. Is there any particular track or part of a track that demonstrates the sibilance? <<

I noticed it right off the bat, pretty much all the tracks. I believe that the XPA-5 is doing this because I never noticed it before with the Butler.

I am *really* hoping that I didn't make a bad move. Sibilance is one thing that really irritates me and once I hear it I cannot "un-hear" it. As I mentioned before, I had to return 2 MMC-1s because of their sibilance. I noticed it immediately when I swapped-out my H/K Signature 2 preprocessor for the MMC-1.

The UMC-1 does not exhibit this trait and was a big step up for me over the MMC-1s. To be fair, I'm gonna give the XPA-5 another week or so to run-in and then sit down for some critical listening.

As I said earlier, I think the XPA-5 is a terrific HT amp. It now remains to be seen if it can be a terrific music amp...

-RW-

[audiohead]

Feb 2, 2013 14:00:10 GMT -5 sharkman said:

It sounds like you have never heard sibilance since you've had the same results with different components in your experience. Siblilance is irritating and takes away from the experience, and for me was easily repeatable when I was comparing the XPA and Parasound amp. It's not in one's head.

As has been mentioned, it depends on the speaker used, perhaps yours are more forgiving.

+1..Yep great HT amp and for the price it really is a very good buy.I have said this before I have done an A/B with my EMO amps and again my UPA-1's are hands down the better amps for music.I have LSi-15's now they are Not a high end speaker but then they are Not a lowend speaker either and are not known for being a "brite" sounding speaker and I argee totally with you guys on the XPA-5.Yep I hear it too and it is why my UPA-1's drive the mains in my set up.

[goldenear2]

Do the xpr's have a problem with sibilance?

[Deleted]

Tips for controlling sibilance in the studio relating to being a source problem in HIFi: theproaudiofiles.com/vocal-sibilance/

Cause of Siblance:
www.avsforum.com/t/1417316/what-is-the-cause-of-sibilance

How much of sibilance is source related to equipment related?

[Porscheguy]

Sybil-ence

[Deleted]

>> How much of sibilance is source related to equipment related? <<

Well, the source will have a given amount of sibilance, that is "non-negotiable". And your system will either enhance, mitigate, or make no change to the sibilance that is present on the source material.

In my case, I think that the XPA-5 enhances the sibilance where the Butler sends it thru un-changed. The sibilance I'm hearing thru the XPA-5 is not egregious, certainly not nearly to the level I heard thru the MMC-1s, but it is present. I am hoping that the burn-in of the XPA-5 will help to tame its sibilance a bit...

-RW-

[briank]

Additional playing time will only help you get used to the sound. Solid state amps after 24 hours are as "burnt in" as their gonna get.

[garbulky]

I repeat my suggestion of attenuators. It helped me.

[sharkman]

Yeah, you've repeated that for just about any thread you've been in. I tried them on my amp, they didn't help the issue. Wanna buy them?

[garbulky]

Other people with emo amps have reported back to me with positive results. Not all but enough to where I recommend them - not to be annoying. Keith has recommend them for certain specific setups though maybe for different reasons than I do.
Anyway, I'll send you a PM.

[Deleted]

>> Additional playing time will only help you get used to the sound. Solid state amps after 24 hours are as "burnt in" as their gonna get. <<

Hey, whatever it takes <g>. The ears breaking-in is a well-known fact. I really don't care *how* I get there, just as long as I do.

Re: attenuators, Sharkman wrote:

>> I tried them on my amp, they didn't help the issue. Wanna buy them? <<

I might be interested. Would you be willing to send 'em to me and let me try 'em out? Of course I'd be willing to pay the shipping both ways if they don't work out...

I just got finished watching Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol and I have to say that the XPA-5 acquitted itself admirably. This movie has a very dynamic soundtrack and makes full use of the surrounds and the LFE channel. The '5 never broke a sweat even during the most demanding passages. Like I said before, it is a very good HT amp. If I can get it working satisfactorily on music, it'll be a keeper...

-RW-

[sharkman]

RLW,

I was only teasing garbulky. You can easily buy some and I'm sure many could suggest options for you. But I would suggest that they would only reduce volume, which would require you to turn it up further.

[Deleted]

Sharky wrote:
>> You can easily buy some and I'm sure many could suggest options for you. But I would suggest that they would only reduce volume, which would require you to turn it up further. <<

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Most folks buy attenuators when their speakers are hyper-efficient, causing hiss at low volumes. My Gallos are of medium efficiency, 89db. I find that I am running my volume at 40-50 on the UMC-1 with my Oppo BDP-93 as the sole source. Turning it up to 65 results in VERY high SPLs, more than I am willing to endure fo more than a few minutes...

-RW-

[Dan Laufman]

Interesting comments on he Butler vs. the XPA-5.

It's going to be very interesting to get the Butler on the test bench and run it through its paces.

I've got a feeling that were doing to see some interesting results. The XPA-5 is definitely not a hard or bright sounding amp, so I'm surprised by the sibilance comments.

My gut feeling is that it will measure with an audible HF roll off.... Not proof yet, just my gut feeling.

Power output will be of interest too....

We'll let you know what we find. It will be interesting to compare.
Cheers,
Big Dan

[pedrocols]

So what is wrong with an amp to amplify the audio from the source as acurate as it can be even if it sucks?

[Deleted]

It was interesting to read of this AVSForum's member experience with sibilance and how he solved his problem by changing speakers:

"One of the reasons I recently bought a new set of speakers was this very issue (excessive sibilance). My old speakers were not the worst by any means (highly rated and not cheap at all), but my new ones are the best I have ever heard (under $5000, that is), and I just had to have them because they are so good in exactly that respect. They are Gallo CL-3 speakers, and they are incredibly good in all respects, but especially from that standpoint.

Crossover networks are often part of the problem, causing phase problems in the voice region. One unique thing about the Gallo speakers is they use super-fast carbon-fibre drivers that go from 40 Hz up to 3 KHZ, well above the voice region, so there is no crossover network at all in the speaker system. The tweeter is also unique and has a LF limit of 3 Khz, so, again, no crossover is used."

I have the Ref. 3s which are one notch above the CLassicos in Gallo's lineup. I can attest to the fact that these speakers have a non-fatiguing tweeter that is definitely not prone to sibilance. So when I started noticing sibilance after I switched amps I must believe that the amp has introduced some sibilance in my system.

I do not hear much, if any, sibilance when playing back movie soundtracks and I wonder why that is so. Anyone care to offer opinions/theories??

-RW-