The XPA-5 vs. The Butler

[Dark Ranger]

Feb 3, 2013 0:35:07 GMT -5 Dan Laufman said:

Interesting comments on he Butler vs. the XPA-5.

It's going to be very interesting to get the Butler on the test bench and run it through its paces.

I've got a feeling that were doing to see some interesting results. The XPA-5 is definitely not a hard or bright sounding amp, so I'm surprised by the sibilance comments.

My gut feeling is that it will measure with an audible HF roll off.... Not proof yet, just my gut feeling.

Power output will be of interest too....

We'll let you know what we find. It will be interesting to compare.
Cheers,
Big Dan

I am definitely interested in the results should you choose to post them. I've got a couple of theories myself based on the feedback in this thread.

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2013 0:35:07 GMT -5 Dan Laufman said:

Interesting comments on he Butler vs. the XPA-5.

It's going to be very interesting to get the Butler on the test bench and run it through its paces.

I've got a feeling that were doing to see some interesting results. The XPA-5 is definitely not a hard or bright sounding amp, so I'm surprised by the sibilance comments.

My gut feeling is that it will measure with an audible HF roll off.... Not proof yet, just my gut feeling.

Power output will be of interest too....

We'll let you know what we find. It will be interesting to compare.
Cheers,
Big Dan

IMO and experience with the XPA-5 you can ignore the sibilance comments. I feel that many of these folks either had amps before that had a less than flat upper range and/or now have slightly bright/edgy sounding speakers and are now hearing the sound source with a super flat amp.

I hear sibilance sometimes and especially with my Norah Jones songs, but I feel that is her sexy voice and not the XPA-5. Sorry, but attributing sibilance to an amp is nonsssenssse! It's in the source, recording techniques and/or perhaps the mic (or maybe the Home Depot lamp cord/speaker wire).

The sibilance crowd here are very sssilly.

I hope Big Dan will be able to give some feedback on the Butler evaluation.

[sharkman]

And how much weight can you give the comments of a fanboy, chuck? Not much, unfortunately.

In my system with the exact same speakers, exact same room, exact same source and exact same songs, one amp gave sibilance and the other amp did not at the exact same volume level. It's the amp.

It's not the end of the world, the XPA amps can not possibly match well with all speaker brands in the world and to think otherwise is just not realistic.

[Deleted]

Big Dan wrote:

"It's going to be very interesting to get the Butler on the test bench and run it through its paces.

I've got a feeling that were doing to see some interesting results. The XPA-5 is definitely not a hard or bright sounding amp, so I'm surprised by the sibilance comments.

My gut feeling is that it will measure with an audible HF roll off..."

One must keep in mind that sibilance does not occur in the upper frequency ranges, most testing shows that it is centered between 5kHz - 8khz, this is the upper midrange. Perhaps measurements of the Butler will show that it rolls off the treble, but I have my doubts. And one of the reasons I doubt this is because of the Butler's published specs.:

• Freq response: 20Hz to 20kHz (+/- 0.5dB)
• Power Bandwidth: -3dB, 50kHz

Those are pretty good specs., especially for a tube amp. A 0.5 db variation is inaudible. And even a 3db variation would be mostly un-noticeable, especially at frequencies above 20kHz. Additionally, I can attest to the fact that the Butler has a very open, airy, even sparkling top end. Listening to cymbals, triangles and such did not un-cover any harshness or sibilance in the past 3 years.

I am not claiming that the XPA-5 is a hard sounding amp - in normal use. But I did notice a bit of "hardening" when I cranked up the volume. And this volume level was not one that I would tolerate for more than a few minutes, it was TOO DAMN LOUD, as my wife used to say <g>.

I am going to keep an eye (ear?) out for this trait in the days and weeks to come and I will report my findings to my fellow Loungers. I do want to emphasize that I think the XPA-5 is a very good amp, and certainly punches well above its weight. And one must also remember that I am comparing the $900 XPA-5 against the $3000 Butler. That extra $2100 damn sure oughta buy you something...

-RW-

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2013 1:58:01 GMT -5 @rlw said:

I do not hear much, if any, sibilance when playing back movie soundtracks and I wonder why that is so. Anyone care to offer opinions/theories??

-RW-

Many solo vocal music recordings are very close mic'd. You have seen the videos of singers with their lips almost touching the mic or the mic screen (pop filter).

The pop filter keeps spit from touching the mic. It also helps to remove plosions. These are when singing or talking and the letter "p" "f" "t" and "s" sounds can cause sibilant sounds and popping, voice cracks, air sounds, etc. I used a pop filter when recording my #1 hit, Chuckie's In Love. That was right after my first date with Salma.

This is IMO the cause of sibilance and not amps.

Movie voice recordings are not mic'd the same, not so close up and little sibilance except for Felix movies.

[sharkman]

Feb 3, 2013 2:20:51 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Big Dan wrote:

I do want to emphasize that I think the XPA-5 is a very good amp, and certainly punches well above its weight. And one must also remember that I am comparing the $900 XPA-5 against the $3000 Butler. That extra $2100 damn sure oughta buy you something...

-RW-

The thing is, if the XPA-5 is a very good amp for movies, but can produce siblilance with music, then how good of an amp is it really? Like any other electronic device they are built to a price, and compromises have to be made that an amp costing 3000 doesn't have to face. Simple economics.

[arthurz]

Feb 3, 2013 2:45:59 GMT -5 sharkman said:

Feb 3, 2013 2:20:51 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Big Dan wrote:

I do want to emphasize that I think the XPA-5 is a very good amp, and certainly punches well above its weight. And one must also remember that I am comparing the $900 XPA-5 against the $3000 Butler. That extra $2100 damn sure oughta buy you something...

-RW-

The thing is, if the XPA-5 is a very good amp for movies, but can produce siblilance with music, then how good of an amp is it really? Like any other electronic device they are built to a price, and compromises have to be made that an amp costing 3000 doesn't have to face. Simple economics.

I'll bet you $1,000 that you can't tell the difference between your Parasound A21 and the XPA-5 in a blind test. I'm serious about the offer if you happen to be in Northern California. You can pick any source and any pair of speakers. Perhaps someone else here would like to pick up the bet in other locations? Let's do it!

[Deleted]

I think that Chuckie is correct in his theory about close micing in response to my observation that I did not hear any sibilance on the movie soundtracks I have heard recently. Thanks for that, Chuck!

I mentioned earlier one thing that I also noticed was that cymbals and such were a bit "splashy", especially at higher volumes. The John McLaughlin tracks that I listened to had NO vocals whatsoever, so what I heard probably wasn't due to close micing.

I really don't want to stir the pot here. I am not claiming that the XPA-5 is a bad amp - far from it. But I also think that many Lounge members do not know how to listen critically and therefore do not notice some of the things I have noticed.

I am NOT claiming that I am a "Golden Ear". However, I have spent a *lot* of time listening to a wide variety of systems. And I also benefitted from having many hours of tutelage on what to listen for from some very knowledgable folks. Many subtle things that I easily hear now I absolutely did not hear before someone showed me *what* to listen for.

And once you hear something, da genie is outta da bottle, you cannot ever un-hear it...

-RW-

[Deleted]

ArthurZ offered:

"I'll bet you $1,000 that you can't tell the difference between your Parasound A21 and the XPA-5 in a blind test. I'm serious about the offer if you happen to be in Northern California. You can pick any source and any pair of speakers. "

Arthur, you will lose that money. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I could discern between the Butler and the XPA-5 in a blind test. It's simply a matter of knowing *what* to listen for. If anything, I have a vested interest in NOT being able to hear what I am hearing. I simply do not have the funds to be able to switch amps left and right.

However, if you feel confident of your convictions, I would be willing to engage in such a test. Now you gotta talk BD into shipping the Butler back to me. And I sure could use the 10 Benjies...<g>

-RW-

[arthurz]

Feb 3, 2013 3:12:24 GMT -5 @rlw said:

ArthurZ offered:

"I'll bet you $1,000 that you can't tell the difference between your Parasound A21 and the XPA-5 in a blind test. I'm serious about the offer if you happen to be in Northern California. You can pick any source and any pair of speakers. "

Arthur, you will lose that money. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I could discern between the Butler and the XPA-5 in a blind test. It's simply a matter of knowing *what* to listen for. If anything, I have a vested interest in NOT being able to hear what I am hearing. I simply do not have the funds to be able to switch amps left and right.

However, if you feel confident of your convictions, I would be willing to engage in such a test. Now you gotta talk BD into shipping the Butler back to me. And I sure could use the 10 Benjies...<g>

-RW-

RW, I would not take this bet against a tube amp. I specifically have the Parasound in mind.

[arthurz]

To be clear, I'm actually taking some risk, because the two amps in question could have slightly different response curves. My bet would be safer if I allowed the use of an equalizer, but it is what it is. Here's more information on where I'm coming from: tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2013 3:12:24 GMT -5 @rlw said:

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I could discern between the Butler and the XPA-5 in a blind test.

He said a Parasound, not a Butler. I won't bet the $1000 on the Butler but if I conduct the test, properly, I'll bet 1000 yen you still can't tell the difference. I'll give you the test set up if you are interested.

[Deleted]

RW, I don't deny that there might be some very subtle or slight sound differences in high quality solid state amps. Tube jobs are a different subject.

However, I see two issues in this discussion. One is when a person gets a new amp or other component and the first thing they do is sit down for some "critical" listening. This means they are listening ultra carefully and now with this heightened state of concentration hear things they don't usually hear in more relaxed listening. How many times have we heard a review in which a person with a new amp, for example, is now hearing things in the recording they "have never heard before." I would more correctly think they are hearing what they heard before but were not concentrating as clearly. Try sitting down to a track you have heard many times before on your existing system and now listen with total critical concentration. I'm guessing you might now hear things you heard before but now hear them like for the first time because you are listening so intently.

The second point is straight out blaming sound differences on one specific component. I am amazed at how some folks can tell it is the amp causing differences in what they hear and not the pre, source component or source itself, DAC, speaker wire, cables, etc. Yes, know the component that is getting the blame is usually the one they just added to the system and thus (at least to them) is the culprit. Many times it is comparing the new unit with an old one they no longer have. I don't find that situation valid no matter how long they owned the old unit. Speakers yes, no problem; but high quality SS amps, no. I love A/B comparisons and encourage folks here to do one if possible while they still have the old unit (photos help). We also have the case where someone goes to a show and "hears" a new DAC. They say that this is the best DAC they have ever heard. Of course this is an absurd statement. What about the different room, speakers, pre, connectors, wires and all the other variables? This also happens with folks who claim differences in amps, etc. one that they heard in their room, one they heard at a friends and one they heard at a dealers. All invalid comparisons. Some folks when pushed into a corner suddenly claim that they did a careful A/B. The lengthy reviews with details of the test and hopefully photos are very few, but much more believable. It is very easy to come here and say amp A is superior to Emo amp B. I find trusting some of those folks to be difficult at best, especially when they are Emo bashers and call Emo supporters fan boys (at the Emotiva Forum).

[Deleted]

Chuck,

I agree with your points almost entirely. Almost. It is true that folks will tend to listen a little more carefully when they first fire up a new piece of gear. And this is probably why many will report hearing nuances that they never heard before.

>> The second point is straight out blaming sound differences on one specific component. I am amazed at how some folks can tell it is the amp causing differences in what they hear and not the pre, source component or source itself, DAC, speaker wire, cables, etc....

Many times it is comparing the new unit with an old one they no longer have. I don't find that situation valid no matter how long they owned the old unit... <<

First, I would use the term "attribute" instead of "blame". Second, the *only* thing that changed in my system was the amp. Everything else was exactly as it was before. Even the specific interconnect cables used from the UMC-1 to the XPA-5 were the same. I know this because I did not disconnect the ICs from the UMC-1.

Therefore, any differences I heard *had* to be the result of placing the XPA-5 in-circuit. And, the funny thing is, I heard the sibilance while I was out of the living room and in the kitchen making some coffee - certainly not a critical listening posture. I finished making the java and walked back into the living room and plopped down in my usual listening position.

Upon listening to the current disc for 15 minutes, I then rifled thru the stack of DVD-Audio discs I keep on hand near the Oppo and grabbed a few with which I am intimately familiar. I pulled out a few of the really good-sounding ones and proceeded to listen to a few tracks on each one in turn.

Each disc exhibited the sibilance to a greater or lesser degree and also a little bit better, more "authoritative" bass. "What one hand giveth, the other taketh away...", or something like that <g>. As for the validity of my observations being in-question because I did not A/B the amps using a switch - Well, I just gotta call BS on that one. I *know* how the Butler sounded, and all I can tell you that there is NO way I would have kept that amp in my system for 3 years if it exhibited undue sibilance. And I am not saying that the XPA-5 is exhibiting undue sibilance. But I *am* saying that it has more sibilance than did the Butler. Whether I can tolerate that for the next 3 years remains to be seen. I need more time to listen.

My plans for tomorrow are to have a critical listening session from about 11am to about 2pm. Alan Parsons' "On Air", Mark Knopfler's "Shangri-La", Roxy Music's "Avalon, and Joni Mitchell's "Court & Sssssspark" <g> will be the first ones I audition. This will give me a good feel for how the amp sounds with well-recorded vocals, both male and female. And I can hardly wait to hear the bass lines on "Avalon"!!

After that, I gotta prep the house for the ass-whipping that the Ravens are visit upon those miserable 49ers.

-RW- To be continued...

[GreenKiwi]

Good luck on the test and listening. I for one hope that you're able to sort out the sib problem and can start enjoying your music again.

If I were a betting man, I'd be thinking that maybe it has to do with increased power being available. And that with the XPA-5, all the sibilance is just getting more pronounced.

Those butlers are very intriguing. Though I think some nCores are next on my list.

[Deleted]

It's nice to give and take with you RW, no name calling. ;D

Sorry about my use of words but in talking about sibilance I'm thinking in my mind something undesirable at least in amps. I'll try to clean up my language here and not place anymore "blame." ;D

I think we're quite close on amp sounds but if we were all in exact agreement that would be pretty dull. All we'd have to do is sit around and talk about Salma, etc.

Note I do usually add "SS amps" in my posts and they thus are not directed to you or anyone else in particular. My comments are not necessarily valid with tube or hybrid amps. I definitely think here is much more chance of hearing a consistent difference in the Butler vs the Emo rather than the Parasound (Halo or no halo) vs the Emo.

That said, obviously we are a little apart on "audio memory." Yes, I was presuming that someone who hadn't heard their old amp recently had the same other equipment (again not necessarily the Butler, only $100). These are not original thoughts about humans not having good audio memory and needing almost instant comparison to A/B amps but I have verified them in my own experience. I have expert quotes I can post about this and you probably have opposing quotes. I only have found that it is difficult to hear differences in the SS amps because the actual differences if any that exist are small and not night/day.

The test I like to do besides the well known A/B instant switching is a much more casual test. It has the person being tested who claims to be able to identify his SS amp (and it would be fun to try the SS vs hybrid amp) vs an Emo amp for example, to leave the room for awhile, say several minutes (give you the tester time to switch amps if in fact switched). Have him return and sit down. Play a high quality source and ask which amp is playing. Always lower the sound to zero and slowly raise it to an agreed upon level when he returns. This is very, very difficult, but it quickly eliminates those who claim they can walk into their room, your room or a dealers room and tell what amp is playing or even compare it to any amp they have heard. Yes, if the amp is over driven then they might detect clipping but that is not part of this test. Then we can sit down and do the instant back and forth A/B is we have the means.

This would be so much fun to do among some of our members. We probably would never get past arguing about the test procedures. ;D ;D ;D

Go Hawks Ravens (we embarrassed the 49's). If Flacco and team wins I hope he gives some credit in the press to Jim Zorn, his former QB coach.

[briank]

The Butler is not a true "tube amp", its a hybrid of tube and solid state. I believe when Big Dan and Lonnie look under the hood they'll basically find a solid state amp with a built in tube buffer. Nothing wrong with that, just sayin'.

[sharkman]

Feb 3, 2013 2:59:49 GMT -5 arthurz said:

Feb 3, 2013 2:45:59 GMT -5 sharkman said:

The thing is, if the XPA-5 is a very good amp for movies, but can produce siblilance with music, then how good of an amp is it really? Like any other electronic device they are built to a price, and compromises have to be made that an amp costing 3000 doesn't have to face. Simple economics.

I'll bet you $1,000 that you can't tell the difference between your Parasound A21 and the XPA-5 in a blind test. I'm serious about the offer if you happen to be in Northern California. You can pick any source and any pair of speakers. Perhaps someone else here would like to pick up the bet in other locations? Let's do it!

If I happen to live in Northern California you'd put your money on the line, eh? How generous of you! ;D

There are at least 4 owners in this thread who have all noticed the sibilance, heck, even Chuck says it's there and says it's recording dependent, which was agreed upon on page one of this thread. I agree though on the theory that many folks don't really know how to listen critically or don't even know what to listen for.

rlw, if I were you I wouldn't sweat it. The XPA-5 is a decent amp and will for the price you paid tide you over until you can get another Butler if you so choose down the road. Or you can start up a dedicated 2 channel system. What I've found around here is that some are just plain and simple unable to be objective where Emotiva amps are concerned. It's to be expected, this is the Emotiva forum after all. But such opinions don't really further the discussion past a certain point. You know what you heard. Other members report the same thing and I was able to compare the 2 amps directly, so if walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

[audiohead]

I stand by what I have found..UPA-1's in My set up Hands Down the better amps for music!..Again I will say I tried liking the XPA-5 for music and I am talking about "Critical Listening.Some very good points you made in your post Chuckienut.

[Deleted]

Sharky consoled:
"rlw, if I were you I wouldn't sweat it...."

Oh, I'm not sweating it. This is really kind of interesting to me and I'm having fun with it. 'Most everyone who has posted has been quite gracious. This is one of the best threads we have had on the Lounge in a long time. Even BD had chimed in 2 or 3 times, when was the last time he did that?!

I am busy burning some test discs right now, can't be bothered with digging thru my messy boxes of discs to find the ones I want <g>. Report to follow on later today...

-RW-