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Post by lsdeep on Dec 8, 2013 2:58:29 GMT -5
i mentioned it in some other thread, but basically i got send into the 'walk in closet' with my 2 ch audio by my 'better' half. since we had constant discussions about the former (den) room arrangements with my main focus on decent audio layout. anyway, i ended up with a (less than favorable) room being 14x14x10 ft (w/l/h) with all concrete walls and ceiling, tile floor, 3 doors on one wall and a good sized window on each of the other 3 walls. windows are center of the walls, the way i have to lay out the room, the door wall will be right, the left has a 3ft wide window, front and back have centered 5ft windows. all louver style and almost always open (hey its jamaica, its cold rite now, about 80°F). i will try to create some kind of sketch and add it later (the plan - the being to lazy factors are another thing). i guess i leave that to the responses i get here. i will go to great lengths for real help and non-voodoo tips  anyway, my budget at the moment is pretty stretched (to put it mildly) after buying the not planned DC-1. just couldn't help myself. the audition unit i had of a friend for about a week made me do it. i swear, i was happy with my bifrost. but he got me hooked on it and i was just tooooo weak LOL. also, beside my relatively minimal system, there are about 3000 cd's and about 1500-2000 books moving with me in the cave. i def got the short end of this deal. anyway, enough complaining. so far the (fairly unchangeable stuff) is a 'desk' centered on the frontwall. basically a solid wood door (6.5x2.4ft) on 2 old style solid steel file cabinets. my 2 newtronics speakers would have to find their space left and right of it (fortunately the newtronics are very easy going on off-wall placement), what should not really cause probs. the floor is treatable with a rug. now we come to my actual prob, the other walls. i was wondering if anybody has any experience using book(shelfs) for treatment. my thinking there is, no money - paper should be better than concrete (mainly paperbacks). the cd's need to be shelved as well (were best???). never had to deal with a room like that, any no/ low cost options are welcome  greetz, L |
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
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Post by hemster on Dec 8, 2013 3:04:56 GMT -5
First, don't lament the less-than-idealness of the room. We all have to make compromises!  Try to hang a curtain (with generous folds) in front of the bookshelf or shelving for the records - it'll both dampen sound reflections and keep your stuff from getting dusty. Failing that, see if you can stack books in a pattern where some are stacked vertically and others horizontally. Or mix up different sizes so there's a jagged front plane (if that makes sense!). |
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Post by deltadube on Dec 8, 2013 3:17:07 GMT -5
wow bro.. tuff room to work with.. carpet and book shelf are not really an acoustical treatment.... and have minimal effect.. but if you could get the rear wall covered in absorbers along with the ceiling.. use the books and cd on opposite walls side as 1st reflection difusors.. look up quadratic diffusors .. tonns of info here www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/610173-acoustics-treatment-reference-guide-look-here.html 80 f is cool wow tell me about it .. did you know parts of Canada today the air temps where -52 c or -62f coldest air on the planet.. cheers |
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Post by lsdeep on Dec 8, 2013 3:39:02 GMT -5
First, don't lament the less-than-idealness of the room. We all have to make compromises! Try to hang a curtain (with generous folds) in front of the bookshelf or shelving for the records - it'll both dampen sound reflections and keep your stuff from getting dusty. Failing that, see if you can stack books in a pattern where some are stacked vertically and others horizontally. Or mix up different sizes so there's a jagged front plane (if that makes sense!). thx hemster, the curtain deal i try to avoid, the 'jagged front' for the books should be easy to accomplish. but i will try the curtains as well (as soon as the book shelves are build) to see if there is a benefit. and btw. i don't lament the room, i compromise - otherwise my wife would be dead cold by now  |
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Post by lsdeep on Dec 8, 2013 4:09:14 GMT -5
wow bro.. tuff room to work with.. carpet and book shelf are not really an acoustical treatment.... and have minimal effect.. but if you could get the rear wall covered in absorbers along with the ceiling.. use the books and cd on opposite walls side as 1st reflection difusors.. look up quadratic diffusors .. tonns of info here www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/610173-acoustics-treatment-reference-guide-look-here.html 80 f is cool wow tell me about it .. did you know parts of Canada today the air temps where -52 c or -62f coldest air on the planet.. cheers i know the rug is and bookshelf are not really solutions in the long run. i just hope the rug will kinda help. as for the bookshelfs, for now i think i have to live with hemster's advice. the books have to go somewhere... i might be german, but i am not into book burning . i kinda hope that (espacially the always open back wall window) takes some pressure off the nightmare. i sure will look into more options by feb/ march. should have some cash to spend by then again. til then i might try for the ceiling a home made version of foam panels i have sitting around with canvas framed to cover it. see what that might bring. rite now i am painting and building shelves, beside being not a happy camper  . i guess i have to start on the good sides.... few as there are. but that would be - MY room! no more compromising in den/ ht-room with the other half! that's still existent, but was never my priority (it is my wife's). i think i got the hint also as she handed me about an hour ago an AKG Q702 (headphones) as early x-mas gift. i never really owned HP before, they sound kinda nice. HP's are just another thing i have to wrap my head around. is there a time machine??? i wanna get un-married LOL! as far as the temp goes, i feel with you m8! seriously!! one of the reasons i moved to jamaica  actually that wasn't a complaint at all! i am happy about it. i am a much happier guy seeing my media server/ NAS keeping sane temps without constant spinning fans anyway, thx for link etc. checking that out now. greetz, L |
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Post by deltadube on Dec 8, 2013 15:14:58 GMT -5
wow bro.. tuff room to work with.. carpet and book shelf are not really an acoustical treatment.... and have minimal effect.. but if you could get the rear wall covered in absorbers along with the ceiling.. use the books and cd on opposite walls side as 1st reflection difusors.. look up quadratic diffusors .. tonns of info here www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/610173-acoustics-treatment-reference-guide-look-here.html 80 f is cool wow tell me about it .. did you know parts of Canada today the air temps where -52 c or -62f coldest air on the planet.. cheers i know the rug is and bookshelf are not really solutions in the long run. i just hope the rug will kinda help. as for the bookshelfs, for now i think i have to live with hemster's advice. the books have to go somewhere... i might be german, but i am not into book burning . i kinda hope that (espacially the always open back wall window) takes some pressure off the nightmare. i sure will look into more options by feb/ march. should have some cash to spend by then again. til then i might try for the ceiling a home made version of foam panels i have sitting around with canvas framed to cover it. see what that might bring. rite now i am painting and building shelves, beside being not a happy camper . i guess i have to start on the good sides.... few as there are. but that would be - MY room! no more compromising in den/ ht-room with the other half! that's still existent, but was never my priority (it is my wife's). i think i got the hint also as she handed me about an hour ago an AKG Q702 (headphones) as early x-mas gift. i never really owned HP before, they sound kinda nice. HP's are just another thing i have to wrap my head around. is there a time machine??? i wanna get un-married LOL! as far as the temp goes, i feel with you m8! seriously!! one of the reasons i moved to jamaica actually that wasn't a complaint at all! i am happy about it. i am a much happier guy seeing my media server/ NAS keeping sane temps without constant spinning fans anyway, thx for link etc. checking that out now. greetz, L www.hometoys.com/emagazine/2012/02/what-are-the-characteristics-of-a-good-sounding-room/1511 can you get roxul safe n sound? check out 3.2.1 |
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Post by yves on Dec 8, 2013 18:14:52 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 8, 2013 19:41:28 GMT -5
Curtains ( the thicker and more layers the better) and rugs/carpet work to help eliminate mid to high frequency reflections and bass traps work for the lower frequencies. You will need both in that room, so I'd start with the rug and curtains. The bass traps are pretty cheaply made out of insulation batts each rolled into a cylinder around some chicken wire and placed in the room corners.  They can be covered in left over curtain material, some contrasting material or I've even used old bed sheets as temporary, cheap covering until the budget becomes available.  Cheers Gary |
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Post by yves on Dec 8, 2013 20:27:22 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 8, 2013 21:27:06 GMT -5
Yet another video selling their products, they don't sell curtains or rugs, so they are hardly going to recommend them. Dead give away when the CAD'd room has no windows or doors. If I roll back the curtains and roll up the rugs the slap echo is beyond annoying, even the finger click echo is noticeable. Adding or removing bass traps does virtually nothing to change them. That is the practical reality, in my world I have floor to ceiling windows and doors on two sides, almost half the room. I'm hardly likely to cover them with specifically designated acoustic treatment. Equally I seriously doubt that someone living in Jamaica is going to permanently block off his supply of beautiful tropical air and sunshine with fixed acoustic panels. Cheers Gary |
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Post by yves on Dec 8, 2013 22:44:36 GMT -5
In a small square room, treating as many corners of the room as possible with corner bass traps will give you the most bang for the buck. These corners include not only the four vertical corners between the walls, but also the four horizontal corners between the walls and ceiling, and, where possible, also the four horizontal corners between the walls and floor. Thicker bass traps are always better. Therefore, building your own SuperChunks (using, for example, a low density floppy type of Roxul insulation batts) is known to be an extremely effective proven strategy as long as you use them to fill up as many corners of your room as you possibly can.
Further, you should IMO build your own panel absorbers to treat the primary reflection points of your room, read up on room acoustics, use REW to make reliable measurements, and learn to depend on that which actually does work.
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Post by yves on Dec 8, 2013 23:17:40 GMT -5
Yet another video selling their products, they don't sell curtains or rugs, so they are hardly going to recommend them. Dead give away when the CAD'd room has no windows or doors. If I roll back the curtains and roll up the rugs the slap echo is beyond annoying, even the finger click echo is noticeable. Adding or removing bass traps does virtually nothing to change them. That is the practical reality, in my world I have floor to ceiling windows and doors on two sides, almost half the room. I'm hardly likely to cover them with specifically designated acoustic treatment. Equally I seriously doubt that someone living in Jamaica is going to permanently block off his supply of beautiful tropical air and sunshine with fixed acoustic panels. Cheers Gary I wasn't referring to the video, but to the written article. Curtains or drapes will only suck out the mid and high frequency energy out of the room, leaving the severe problems in the low frequencies completely ignored. In a small square room, slap echo, or flutter echo, is hardly a problem when compared to the enormous dips in the bass part of the frequency response and the slow decay times at certain bass frequencies that result from standing waves. Further, panel absorbers are very easy to DIY fast at very little cost, and they can be placed on stands if needed. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 9, 2013 0:27:29 GMT -5
Yet another video selling their products, they don't sell curtains or rugs, so they are hardly going to recommend them. Dead give away when the CAD'd room has no windows or doors. If I roll back the curtains and roll up the rugs the slap echo is beyond annoying, even the finger click echo is noticeable. Adding or removing bass traps does virtually nothing to change them. That is the practical reality, in my world I have floor to ceiling windows and doors on two sides, almost half the room. I'm hardly likely to cover them with specifically designated acoustic treatment. Equally I seriously doubt that someone living in Jamaica is going to permanently block off his supply of beautiful tropical air and sunshine with fixed acoustic panels. I wasn't referring to the video, but to the written article. Curtains or drapes will only suck out the mid and high frequency energy out of the room, leaving the severe problems in the low frequencies completely ignored. In a small square room, slap echo, or flutter echo, is hardly a problem when compared to the enormous dips in the bass part of the frequency response and the slow decay times at certain bass frequencies that result from standing waves. Further, panel absorbers are very easy to DIY fast at very little cost, and they can be placed on stands if needed. I think we are in heated agreement on treatment (sic), just that I have a particular hate for mid and high frequency echo, it annoys the crap out of me. Plus they are by far the most common frequencies found in music. So not only do I hate it when I hear it, I hear it far more frequently than anything including infrequent (relatively) bass dips. Moveable screens are all very well but they soak up floor space that a small room such as this doesn't exactly have a premium of. The major difference between what we are suggesting is that you are emphasising the best possible acoustic solution. While I'm attaching more relevance to the budget, the climate and the room. If this was a room located somewhere where it was so cold outside for 6 months of the year that central heating, isolation and insulation were relevant then maybe I'd be leaning more in your direction. But it's not, it's in Jamaica, a climate that I'm familiar with and one in which ventilation, sunlight and openness are a necessity. I suspect that in this case practicalities might just overrule acoustic perfection, I could be wrong, but it does no harm to present alternatives even though they not be perfection on a stick. Cheers Gary |
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Post by deltadube on Dec 9, 2013 0:57:46 GMT -5
Curtains ( the thicker and more layers the better) and rugs/carpet work to help eliminate mid to high frequency reflections and bass traps work for the lower frequencies. You will need both in that room, so I'd start with the rug and curtains. The bass traps are pretty cheaply made out of insulation batts each rolled into a cylinder around some chicken wire and placed in the room corners. They can be covered in left over curtain material, some contrasting material or I've even used old bed sheets as temporary, cheap covering until the budget becomes available. Cheers Gary did you make that bass trap Gary? pretty nice.. is it solid to the core or is they a big hole in the centre? bass traps in the corner are great did you ever think of trying to build another to top it off to the ceiling? you can never have enough absorbers in a small square room.. cheers. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 9, 2013 1:39:57 GMT -5
did you make that bass trap Gary? pretty nice.. is it solid to the core or is they a big hole in the centre? bass traps in the corner are great did you ever think of trying to build another to top it off to the ceiling? you can never have enough absorbers in a small square room.. cheers. That's not one of mine, but mine were the same design, insulation batts wrapped around a cylinder of chicken wire, with a hollow centre. Stacking them would be interesting, my lounge room has cathedral ceilings, about 6 metres at the highest end. The most interesting traps that I have seen were insulation bats wrapped around a set of round drawers, popular in India, that held CD's. Kinda like these, bit taller maybe.  The insulation was mounted on a tall skinny curved door that opened outwards to give access to the drawers. Cheers Gary |
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Post by lsdeep on Dec 9, 2013 22:23:17 GMT -5
thx mate, for destroying some hopes here to combine the unavoidable with some low cost (curtains) as even intermediate solution  |
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Post by lsdeep on Dec 9, 2013 22:44:35 GMT -5
Curtains ( the thicker and more layers the better) and rugs/carpet work to help eliminate mid to high frequency reflections and bass traps work for the lower frequencies. You will need both in that room, so I'd start with the rug and curtains. The bass traps are pretty cheaply made out of insulation batts each rolled into a cylinder around some chicken wire and placed in the room corners. They can be covered in left over curtain material, some contrasting material or I've even used old bed sheets as temporary, cheap covering until the budget becomes available. Cheers Gary did you make that bass trap Gary? pretty nice.. is it solid to the core or is they a big hole in the centre? bass traps in the corner are great did you ever think of trying to build another to top it off to the ceiling? you can never have enough absorbers in a small square room.. cheers. wow, they look nice man! should also be affordable for me rite now . that's more the positive attitude i'm looking for in terms of 'affordable' diy solutions. thx gary! i have to ask same question, is it hollow core or solid rolled up? i will def. give that a try. as well as the curtains (for now). the books have to go in here, at least a good part of them, my wife wants them out of the den (which is overflowing with books anyway) so i was thinking about putting shelves behind the speakers (floor to ceiling) to stash them. as i said the newtronics are pretty easy going with wallspace towards back and side. maybe shelf the cd's behind the desk on the wall around the window (might fit there and they are rarely pulled this days anyway. it's all pretty much ripped on my storage server). the floor has to do with a rug for now to cover. it's a rental house, i can't start to rip up tile floors ROFL. back wall thick curtains sounds like the way to go for now. can leave the window there open as well, no surface - no reflection, rite!? thx for your input, i start to see a light at the end of the tunnel again |
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Post by lsdeep on Dec 9, 2013 22:46:52 GMT -5
guess your follow up post answered my question about hollow/ solid center. thx again!
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Post by novisnick on Dec 29, 2013 16:28:59 GMT -5
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Post by deltadube on Dec 29, 2013 16:53:11 GMT -5
great looking trap Nick what size is it? what kind of insulation did you use? can you hear a difference? cheers |
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