Boomzilla's Journey (ongoing)

[garbulky]

Very interesting! Keep us updated Do you have a pic of the KEFs in your setup?

[RightinLA]

Now that you've got the sweet sounding phase plug modified Heresy's, you'll be selling the KEF's fairly soon because you don't seem happy with them.

[Boomzilla]

Feb 22, 2014 0:32:00 GMT -5 RightinLA said:

Now that you've got the sweet sounding phase plug modified Heresy's, you'll be selling the KEF's fairly soon because you don't seem happy with them.

Maybe, maybe not. The KEFs do a LOT of things well. The KEFs (unpositioned and untweaked) image better than any other speaker I've tried. I like imaging. That alone means I want to spend some time trying to optimize the KEFs to see it I can overcome their shortcomings. These KEFs main deficiency (mid bass performance) is probably an artifact of their small driver. It's possible that some three-way tower KEFs that use this same small, coaxial driver as a midrange/tweeter only would compete with the Heresys in the mid bass.

Remember, also, that the Q series (which is what my KEFs are) is the economy line of the KEF offerings. An R series or a 203/205/207.2 might well be an order of magnitude (or two) better. In fact, I wouldn't automatically say no to some used Blades.

The initial experience with these Q300s has put KEF into the running along with Revel and Thiel for me. These are not "also-ran" speakers.

Boomzilla

PS: I notice that the KEFs also came with port plugs, which jedinite24 was kind enough to include. Since the speakers need not produce low bass in my setup, installing the plugs may bump the bass response just slightly so that they sound fuller in the mid bass. Another thing to try...

[Boomzilla]

Mit Der KEFs:

[Boomzilla]

So at a yard sale this morning, I picked up a pair of 3-way speakers; Thiel 03a models. The good news is that the cabinets, although slightly scratched, can be made to look very good. The bad news is that:

1. The midrange drivers have rotten foam surrounds
2. The woofers have rotten foam surrounds
3. The grille cloths & frames need replacement
4. There is no way to tell what condition the crossover is in
5. Although the soft dome tweeters appear OK, there may be no way to know if they work until the remainder of the speaker is ready to try.

SO... Before I invest any work at all in these, the question must be answered: Are these worth restoring?

If the answer is yes, then should I refoam the existing drivers, or buy replacements (if any are still available). Were these "standard" SEAS, VIFA, or Peerless drivers that are still made, or were they custom-made for Jim Thiel?

If these are NOT worth restoring, then I'll just donate them to the local charity that helps battered women and let some student refurbish them with Radio-Shack parts.

Advice?

[Boomzilla]

I've also bumped up the crossover frequency between the KEF Q300s and the sub to 100 Hz.

OH MY!

Now we have a singing system! I put on Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car," and it almost brought me to tears. Tracy was in my room if I closed my eyes... THAT's what I want out of the stereo - goosebumps!

Closer now than ever! I still don't have the KEFs in their best position, but they are getting closer.

[RightinLA]

Feb 22, 2014 12:23:02 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Mit Der KEFs:

Those KEF's look nice. How did they compare to the LSi9's and Stealth's that we listened to?

[Boomzilla]

Feb 22, 2014 14:33:00 GMT -5 RightinLA said:

Those KEF's look nice. How did they compare to the LSi9's and Stealth's that we listened to?

Now THAT'S a hard question to answer. We listened to the LSI9s and the Stealths with NO subwoofer. The sub has augmented the KEFs since I put them in.

As to treble, the LSi9s may have a slight edge (but only slight). The Stealths (when set up at the right height), were very, very similar to the KEFs in the treble.

As to midrange, I think the KEFs more revealing than either the LSi9s or the Stealths. They (the KEFs) have a midrange bloom that makes a window into the original acoustic (or so it seems to me - purely conjecture since I wasn't there to hear the original recording made). The KEFs provide a very believable sound stage with a multitude of recordings.

As for bass, I can't compare at all. The subwoofer makes the KEFs sound REALLY full-range in a way that neither the LSi9s or the Stealths can touch. Of course, if we matched the other speakers to a sub, it would be a far fairer comparison.

As of now, I like a number of things about the KEFs. They are not height sensitive. Short stands, tall stands, no difference. The concentric tweeter apparently DOES avoid lobeing effects in a way that no vertical two-driver speaker I've heard can do. The "point source" pattern also seems completely agnostic as to toe-in. Right angles to the back wall = good. Toed in toward the listener = good. Any point in between = good.

The KEFs DO exacerbate one aspect of my room that Garbulky has noted before. The midrange can sound "grainy" or rough with some material. Since this has been noticed with multiple equipment combinations, it isn't speaker-specific. The KEFs, however, reveal it more starkly. I truly think that I need a few more sound absorbers, and maybe some bass traps. ATS Acoustics promised me feedback by Friday, February the 15th or Monday the 17th at the latest. I haven't heard from them again despite emailing to ask if my project was still in their queue.

It's about time to give up on ATS and look for another absorber panel company. Any suggestions?

[Boomzilla]

Well, a bit more about the KEF Q300s - They can bring a small-scale musical event into the room with you, but they fall apart when asked to play power music. Fire up a full orchestra or some expansive pop, and the speakers sound thin. "Wispy" is how I read another reviewer describe them. It isn't that they can't play loudly - they can. It isn't a dynamic restriction either (although they do lose some dynamics at loud volumes), it's more that their mid bass can't go loud along with the tweeter. As the volume increases, the mid-bass doesn't keep up. This leads to a loss of realism when you're trying to hear a full orchestra.

Putting the plugs in the ports and raising the crossover frequency to 100 Hz. helped, but not enough... These speakers might just light up with the mid bass warmth of tubes... I may keep these just for variety, but they aren't the ultimate speakers for me. I'd still like to hear some fancier 3-way KEFs to see if they can do what the 2-ways can't. Any specific recommendations, youse guys?

Thanks - Boomzilla

[Boomzilla]

And now for a completely different topic - room treatments... I've mentioned several times that my room needs more.

The good things about this room are as follows:

1. The 23.5 x 16 x 9 foot dimensions don't produce any really loud peaks or dips
2. The four corners are all vented to other areas: First corner to an opening to another room, second corner to a foyer, third corner to a hallway, and fourth corner to an open stairwell
3. Bass response below 100 Hz. is fairly smooth
4. There are three acoustic panels on the wall behind the speakers - one behind each speaker and a third centered between the speakers
5. A fourth acoustic panel is immediately behind the listening couch
6. There's a medium-thick rug on the floor between the speakers and the listening couch

The room problems include:

1. All wall and ceiling surfaces are sheet rock and the floor is hard (except where the rug is)
2. The room is asymmetrical from left to right (and the speakers are off-center on a long wall)
3. Both side's "first-reflection points" are not easily damped - the near side has a flat-screen TV where the reflection point is, the far side has a short wall with a large picture
4. The space must be used as a listening room and a living room

Although the "clap test" yields little evident slap-echo, the room is still too live. I know that I need additional absorption or diffusion, but I'm not sure where it should go (or what I need). I've contacted ATS Acoustics for advice, but have received no reply.

Acoustic engineers? Any advice?

Here's a series of panoramic shots from the center of the room (pardon the clutter):

[Boomzilla]

Quoting DaveNote from Audiocircle:

"This is a review. Review readers beware! Never forget that all reviews are subjective, including this one. Reviewers can tart up assessments with lots of adjectives and rhetorical devices and refer to measurements they've done, but strip away the verbiage, and tech-speak, and the reader is left with this: that a reviewer, listening to selected music in a specific room with particular associated equipment, liked or didn't like all or part of the reviewed component.

But, that residue - an opinion, a subjective assessment - can be more or less valid to individual readers if they are fully aware of the general drift of a reviewer's preferences. And the result can be most useful. If, for example, he has shown in other reviews that he likes the kinds of things the reader likes, comments of such a reviewer can be helpful in terms of making critical purchasing decisions, especially in this era when it's getting harder to get equipment demonstrations.

Indeed, for this reason, such subjective assessments can be more helpful to non-technical readers (and non-technical audio buyers) than a confirmation of specs through reviewer measurements. Why? Specs help point readers toward, or away from, certain products, but ultimately non-technical readers, and more importantly audio users, need to know not what a component does on an oscilloscope, but if they will enjoy it, and, therefore, might be worth purchasing.

I firmly believe, the most important measure is how much a listener likes what he hears. If an ancient boom box gives him the sound he loves, then that ancient boom box is perfect - perfect for him. That's the bottom line, all that really counts. Specs are guides, not the final determining factor.

Because I'm an audiophile, I do read specs carefully, as guides. But as I have gone up the scale of high end, I also have found that sometimes even outstanding specs don't always mean a piece of gear with great specs is enjoyable to me. Sennheiser HD800 headphones, for example, which I bought, have outstanding specs and received many rave reviews. But to my ear, while they were very accurate, and technically superb, they were not enjoyable. I gave them to someone who would use them. I continue to find other less expensive headphones that are significantly more enjoyable - to me.

By enjoyable I mean making the music does what is supposed to do - attracts me, makes itself appealing, makes me stop, listen. Moves me. The Sennheisers didn't do that for me, they were correct, but cold and analytical. Like an English teacher I once had who really knew his stuff, but was a lousy teacher. He, too, was correct, but cold and analytical; not someone a student could come to like, let alone love.

I emphasize that what I enjoy, others might detest. What I like in my room, with my equipment, might be found wanting by other listeners - even those with tastes that are similar to mine - in their rooms and with different equipment. To the degree that this review might be a guide to their own possible purchase..., I ask that they remember how, like all other reviews they read, this one is no less subjective.

I want to put this review into context. Readers should know what my experiences, biases and tastes are so that they can judge how useful my comments might be to them."



I thought this a factual and excellent description of reviews in general. Now here's my specific experiences, biases, and tastes:

I prefer two-channel stereo equipment.

Home audio is the reproduction of a sound, but it never can be more than a facsimile.

I like flat frequency response from as low as possible to as high as possible with low distortion - this sounds more "real' to me.

I don't listen loudly. In fact, a live symphony orchestra plays far, far louder than I listen. In fact a live string quartet in my room is far louder than I listen (and yes, I have had live string quartets here).

I'm sensitive to midrange glare.

I value imaging.

Cheers - Boom

[Deleted]

Feb 23, 2014 9:01:45 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

And now for a completely different topic - room treatments... I've mentioned several times that my room needs more.

The good things about this room are as follows:

1. The 23.5 x 16 x 9 foot dimensions don't produce any really loud peaks or dips
2. The four corners are all vented to other areas: First corner to an opening to another room, second corner to a foyer, third corner to a hallway, and fourth corner to an open stairwell
3. Bass response below 100 Hz. is fairly smooth
4. There are three acoustic panels on the wall behind the speakers - one behind each speaker and a third centered between the speakers
5. A fourth acoustic panel is immediately behind the listening couch
6. There's a medium-thick rug on the floor between the speakers and the listening couch

The room problems include:

1. All wall and ceiling surfaces are sheet rock and the floor is hard (except where the rug is)
2. The room is asymmetrical from left to right (and the speakers are off-center on a long wall)
3. Both side's "first-reflection points" are not easily damped - the near side has a flat-screen TV where the reflection point is, the far side has a short wall with a large picture
4. The space must be used as a listening room and a living room

Although the "clap test" yields little evident slap-echo, the room is still too live. I know that I need additional absorption or diffusion, but I'm not sure where it should go (or what I need). I've contacted ATS Acoustics for advice, but have received no reply.

Acoustic engineers? Any advice?

Here's a series of panoramic shots from the center of the room (pardon the clutter):

Gik Acoustics is great. They will use your pictures and measurements and give you several options. They are fast to respond, they ship fast, and the panels are really nice.

[Boomzilla]

Thanks, Redog. I'll check them out pronto.

[Boomzilla]

And I think that I'm finally getting rather toward the end. I've got an amp that's good enough; a front end that's better than good enough, and some (multiple pairs) of speakers that I can live with. When I get bored, I can mix & match amongst the speakers. Other than finalizing room treatments, the equipment merry-go-round begins to slow...

Once I sell off all the "almost" equipment, then I'm retired from audiophilia. Then I'll be "just" a listener.

Two of the final pieces came together in the past couple of days. On Saturday, I bought a truly beat-up pair of Thiel 03a speakers. If nobody wants to buy them, I'll use their (exceptionally well-made) cabinets as the basis of a DIY speaker project. And... the Heresys are finally tuned in.

I may yet update this thread from time to time, but those comments will be fewer & farther between.

Adieux!

[garbulky]

Feb 22, 2014 14:32:04 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I've also bumped up the crossover frequency between the KEF Q300s and the sub to 100 Hz.

OH MY!

Now we have a singing system! I put on Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car," and it almost brought me to tears. Tracy was in my room if I closed my eyes... THAT's what I want out of the stereo - goosebumps!

Closer now than ever! I still don't have the KEFs in their best position, but they are getting closer.

Fast car is definitely a good song. It starts slow and when the drums kick in and that organ (?) jumps in there, I get goosebumps too.

[drtrey3]

I really like good imaging as well. And a side order of goosebumps please.

Trey

[Boomzilla]

Peggy Lee's "Fever" also trips the "wow" scale!

[Bonzo]

Was just thinking the other day that you should give some of the Triton 7 series a listen just for sh*ts and giggles.....(scroll down to the bottom of the page)

www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series

but I remember you posted in my old thread here that they don't sell them around you, so no dice.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/608586/thread

I was thinking of you because they get great reviews (so good that some professional reviewers have even purchased them for their new reference speaker), are supposedly very dynamic, have supposedly great imaging, have a similar tweeter to the ones used in the Stealths, are not di or bi-poles, have radiators for "supposedly" deep bass (you know the drill here), have a leaned back face like Thiels you keep asking about, and don't cost a total arm and a leg ($700 each).

[Boomzilla]

Thank you, Bonzo - I'll keep an eye out for them.

[Bonzo]

Forgot to mention they are also not self powered with built in subs. I know you don't like those either.

Glad to hear you are finding some happiness with the KEFs. Awesome.

Cheers.