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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 14:43:44 GMT -5
What’s the big deal? If Emo wants to sell to Roon users, just step up and get certified like the other big boys.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2020 14:50:59 GMT -5
Well the big deal is arbitary exclusion policies without a real need for them. There's no reason for a dac not to be able to work with Roon other than that Roon decrees it to be so. It narrows down choice, which I think is even more ridiculous because there's a good amount of free players and Roon costs $$. This is a case of building exclusivity and name recognition. "Roon certified" means this DAC is somehow special. It's just a dac.
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 15:01:01 GMT -5
No exclusion, just no certification without testing.
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Post by brutiarti on Oct 1, 2020 15:14:10 GMT -5
Well the big deal is arbitary exclusion policies without a real need for them. There's no reason for a dac not to be able to work with Roon other than that Roon decrees it to be so. It narrows down choice, which I think is even more ridiculous because there's a good amount of free players and Roon costs $$. This is a case of building exclusivity and name recognition. "Roon certified" means this DAC is somehow special. It's just a dac. Actually Gar, Roon is not a DAC. It will only affect endpoints that are certified with their software. |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2020 15:18:25 GMT -5
Well the big deal is arbitary exclusion policies without a real need for them. There's no reason for a dac not to be able to work with Roon other than that Roon decrees it to be so. It narrows down choice, which I think is even more ridiculous because there's a good amount of free players and Roon costs $$. This is a case of building exclusivity and name recognition. "Roon certified" means this DAC is somehow special. It's just a dac. Actually Gar, Roon is not a DAC. It will only affect endpoints that are certified with their software. I meant that the DACs need to be roon certified to work on their player right? At least if you are using a new one? |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 1, 2020 15:35:37 GMT -5
Well the big deal is arbitary exclusion policies without a real need for them. There's no reason for a dac not to be able to work with Roon other than that Roon decrees it to be so. It narrows down choice, which I think is even more ridiculous because there's a good amount of free players and Roon costs $$. This is a case of building exclusivity and name recognition. "Roon certified" means this DAC is somehow special. It's just a dac. I think I mentioned this before, but my read of the "why" behind their recent crackdown on non-certified equipment is that some folks were complaining to them that things were not working right...yet Roon did work right with certified gear. Since they couldn't guarantee it would work right with non-certified gear, they opted to reduce their complaints by cutting off playback to anything not certified. Importantly, they gave people warning up front and a way to check if their gear would continue to work or not. And, if someone had a piece of gear that would be cut off, they told users what to do with the maker of the gear. I think that's totally fair and not at all arbitrary. I checked mine as soon as I heard, and all mine was just fine and continues to be. That's totally my read of the situation, and I may be wrong. Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 1, 2020 15:38:32 GMT -5
Actually Gar, Roon is not a DAC. It will only affect endpoints that are certified with their software. I meant that the DACs need to be roon certified to work on their player right? At least if you are using a new one? Again - the DAC does not have to be certified. The endpoint must be. Example: my Pi's are endpoints and are certified with Roon. I can send the signal from the Pi to a DAC that's not certified. Are you a Roon user? Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2020 15:42:02 GMT -5
What if it's a PC with Roon connected to a non-certified dac via USB? Boomzilla I think that solves your concern. Schiit doesn't make a network endpoint. Just DACs. They will work fine with Roon and are not affected by the situation which only affects players. |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 16:07:34 GMT -5
Gar, you really should consider subscribing to Roon....
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 16:10:40 GMT -5
What if it's a PC with Roon connected to a non-certified dac via USB? Boomzilla I think that solves your concern. Schiit doesn't make a network endpoint. Just DACs. They will work fine with Roon and are not affected by the situation which only affects players. I think you're mistaken. The latest version of Roon wants to "see" the endpoint, or it won't play to it. Period. In the past, Roon worked with a WIDE variety of DACs which it could "see" despite them not being Roon-certified. But, as klinemj pointed out, Roon continued to get complaints about things not working exactly right with a few of those "non-certified" DACs. To cut down on customer complaints, Roon decided to let Roon "see" only Roon-certified DACs (or, alternately "intermediate-endpoints) in the future. As has been previously pointed out, you can always insert a Roon-certified intermediate endpoint, such as a Raspberry Pi, in the signal chain, and the (digital) output of that endpoint will then work with ANY DAC, Roon-certified or not. So having an inexpensive "Roon-certified" streamer in the signal chain allows you to use non-certified DACs if you want to. And Roon-certification can't cost that much - after all, a $100 Audioquest Dragonfly has Roon-certification. Is it an additional imposition on the DAC manufacturers? Yes, it is. But I predict that ere long, there will be a flock of $50 "Roon-certified" converters on the market that will be recognized by Roon and then pass on ANY digital format to the DAC of your choice. They'll look something like this, as a USB example? Boom |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2020 16:16:45 GMT -5
What if it's a PC with Roon connected to a non-certified dac via USB? Boomzilla I think that solves your concern. Schiit doesn't make a network endpoint. Just DACs. They will work fine with Roon and are not affected by the situation which only affects players. I think you're mistaken. The latest version of Roon wants to "see" the endpoint, or it won't play to it. Period. In the past, Roon worked with a WIDE variety of DACs which it could "see" despite them not being Roon-certified. But, as klinemj pointed out, Roon continued to get complaints about things not working exactly right with a few of those "non-certified" DACs. To cut down on customer complaints, Roon decided to let Roon "see" only Roon-certified DACs (or, alternately "intermediate-endpoints) in the future. As has been previously pointed out, you can always insert a Roon-certified intermediate endpoint, such as a Raspberry Pi, in the signal chain, and the (digital) output of that endpoint will then work with ANY DAC, Roon-certified or not. So having an inexpensive "Roon-certified" streamer in the signal chain allows you to use non-certified DACs if you want to. And Roon-certification can't cost that much - after all, a $100 Audioquest Dragonfly has Roon-certification. Is it an additional imposition on the DAC manufacturers? Yes, it is. But I predict that ere long, there will be a flock of $50 "Roon-certified" converters on the market that will be recognized by Roon and then pass on ANY digital format to the DAC of your choice. They'll look something like this? Boom Unless I'm mistaken, if your endpoint is your windows or mac computer, then it will play to a non-certified DAC. Did you have a different endpoint in mind that was not roon certified? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 16:19:55 GMT -5
Unless I'm mistaken, if your endpoint is your windows or mac computer, then it will play to a non-certified DAC. Did you have a different endpoint in mind that was not roon certified? No. Normally, the Roon SERVER runs on your windows or mac computer. The Roon server needs to see a Roon endpoint. The server cannot be the endpoint. In other words, the Roon program runs on my computer. I direct the audio output to the USB port, for example, but for that to work, I MUST have a Roon endpoint hooked up to the USB output. The Roon server "sees" the endpoint over the USB connection, and then directs output there. |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 16:25:27 GMT -5
All, the server can be the “endpoint” that drives any dac. They just say for best results separate the server, or core, from the endpoint to cut down on digital noise from those rather nasty switching power supplies.
This is what I do, Mac Mini as Roon core directly driving my Mc 2600 with built in dac.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 16:27:33 GMT -5
All, the server can be the “endpoint” that drives any dac. They just say for best results separate the server, or core, from the endpoint to cut down on digital noise from those rather nasty switching power supplies. This is what I do, Mac Mini as Roon core directly driving my Mc 2600 with built in dac. Yeah, what I do is Mac Mini as Roon core directly driving my Emotiva BasX T-100 with built in DAC. But I think you're mistaken as to the server being the endpoint, Bill - the MC2600 is your endpoint. |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 16:29:36 GMT -5
Maybe semantics, I mean my pre/dac is my output device.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2020 16:31:11 GMT -5
All, the server can be the “endpoint” that drives any dac. They just say for best results separate the server, or core, from the endpoint to cut down on digital noise from those rather nasty switching power supplies. This is what I do, Mac Mini as Roon core directly driving my Mc 2600 with built in dac. Yeah, what I do is Mac Mini as Roon core directly driving my Emotiva BasX T-100 with built in DAC. But I think you're mistaken as to the server being the endpoint, Bill - the MC2600 is your endpoint. Is your use case the roon core running a usb dac? That should work with a non certified dac right? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 16:42:48 GMT -5
Is your use case the roon core running a usb dac? That should work with a non certified dac right? Yes - BUT... My Emotiva BasX T-100 DAC is NOT Roon-certified. Since it is currently running, it will continue to run. But in the future, should I disconnect it, it may not be recognized again by Roon, if I understand their press release. If that's the case, then I'll need to insert an intermediate streamer (that IS Roon-certified) to continue using the DAC. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 1, 2020 17:51:27 GMT -5
I think Boomzilla is right - adding a Roon certified endpoint is CHEAP. Considering the cost of a Pi board (my first cost me ~$35), the cost of Roon certification is "nothing". And, I also agree with audiobill - garbulky should just try Roon. Also to Garbulky, I don't know if outputting from my various PC's to a non-Roon DAC works. Audiobill's caution on noisy PC's is valid, but - that said...I sometimes listen to Roon on my Microsoft Surface speakers or on my office desktop's speakers (Emotiva Airmotiv 3b's) and it's good enough for PC sound. But, for critical listening I always go into a certified Roon endpoint. I've not compared the PC sound to my critical listening endpoints, but...my PC's don't have really high end speakers. Mark |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 18:08:38 GMT -5
This may help, from Roon:
Outputs are devices that make noise.
Roon is built from the ground up to run a multi-room audio system. Whether you have one output or a dozen or more, we have you covered.
Our playback engine is built for audiophile quality playback of standard and high-resolution audio content to a wide variety of output devices.
Our RAAT streaming technology moves bit-perfect streams to Roon Ready networked devices and outputs connected to devices running Roon, Roon Server, or Roon Bridge.
Roon supports many different kinds of output devices, including:
Roon Ready Networked devices.
Connected outputs, including USB DACs, sound cards, and built-in outputs
AirPlay devices
Logitech's Squeezebox devices
Meridian Audio's networked endpoints
HQPlayer
For a more comprehensive view of our output support see here: Partner Devices Matrix
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 21:45:03 GMT -5
...There's no reason for a dac not to be able to work with Roon other than that Roon decrees it to be so. Well, apparently there IS such a reason. If customers (who have paid for Roon) find that some features don't work with THEIR DAC, they don't complain to the DAC-maker, they complain to Roon. When Roon got tired enough of the complaints, they made the rule - Don't expect all the features of Roon unless you buy a Roon-certified DAC. It narrows down choice, which I think is even more ridiculous because there's a good amount of free players and Roon costs $$. This is a case of building exclusivity and name recognition... I've tried the free players. They lack the interface sophistication of Roon - they lack the linked in album and artist data of Roon - they lack the RAAT streaming ability of Roon - they lack the internet streaming abilities of Roon - they lack the stability of Roon - they lack the heuristics of Roon that select similar music that you've never heard. True - SOME of the free players offer SOME of these features, but for those who have looked at the alternatives (free and paid), many choose Roon. Many don't but that's OK - it's a free country. But having PAID for Roon, the customers WANT all the features of Roon to work. If Roon won't work properly with some DACs, it IS a problem. So rather than being ridiculous, by certifying hardware, Roon is trying to ensure that their customers get the experience they've paid for. It's admittedly an experiment - If enough manufacturers refuse to have their hardware Roon-certified, then Roon will have to back down, and modify their program to be more hardware-generic. Roon may have to delete some features to make that happen, but that's economics. At this point, I shouldn't predict whether Roon will prevail or not - it depends on market share. But if very many customers refuse to buy a specific DAC because it isn't Roon-certified (and tell the manufacturer why they chose another brand), then that gets a manufacturer's attention FAST. Boom |
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