klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 21, 2020 16:54:02 GMT -5
So basically Roon refuses to work with any perfectly functioning dac unless they talk to Roon? Didn't realize they had enough market penetration to isolate themselves into their own ecosystem... Eitherway...Schiit is a Roon Partner and Schitt says it will work. roonlabs.com/partner-schiitIf you do consider them, you may want to double check though because of the new advice. My read of their comments on the link brubacca provided (plus some other things I looked at) is that Roon is saying, effectively, that "if we haven't certified it as Roon Ready, it may not work right in total, and we don't want problems blamed on us" That said - they did clearly say that if you have a device that's not certified (shows the "pink banner" within Roon) - you can keep using it UNLESS you disable it. Once you disable it, you won't be able to enable it again until the maker of the device proves they are indeed Roon ready. I think that's fair...Roon is protecting its equity, allowing users to keep using uncertified gear, and providing a pathway for makers of uncertified to get certified with pressure from their users. Makes sense to me. Mark |
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Post by megash0n on Sept 21, 2020 17:27:59 GMT -5
So basically Roon refuses to work with any perfectly functioning dac unless they talk to Roon? Didn't realize they had enough market penetration to isolate themselves into their own ecosystem... Eitherway...Schiit is a Roon Partner and Schitt says it will work. roonlabs.com/partner-schiitIf you do consider them, you may want to double check though because of the new advice. My read of their comments on the link brubacca provided (plus some other things I looked at) is that Roon is saying, effectively, that "if we haven't certified it as Roon Ready, it may not work right in total, and we don't want problems blamed on us" That said - they did clearly say that if you have a device that's not certified (shows the "pink banner" within Roon) - you can keep using it UNLESS you disable it. Once you disable it, you won't be able to enable it again until the maker of the device proves they are indeed Roon ready. I think that's fair...Roon is protecting its equity, allowing users to keep using uncertified gear, and providing a pathway for makers of uncertified to get certified with pressure from their users. Makes sense to me. Mark How do you like that Pi hat? I don't really have a need for it at all, but I'm curious. I'm also curious why anyone would use that over the G3P. Should I assume it is just because the G3P isn't "roon ready"? I didn't think the quality of a cheap add-on DAC would be acceptable to most. Again, only curious what your opinion is on this. Thanks! |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 21, 2020 19:12:25 GMT -5
My read of their comments on the link brubacca provided (plus some other things I looked at) is that Roon is saying, effectively, that "if we haven't certified it as Roon Ready, it may not work right in total, and we don't want problems blamed on us" That said - they did clearly say that if you have a device that's not certified (shows the "pink banner" within Roon) - you can keep using it UNLESS you disable it. Once you disable it, you won't be able to enable it again until the maker of the device proves they are indeed Roon ready. I think that's fair...Roon is protecting its equity, allowing users to keep using uncertified gear, and providing a pathway for makers of uncertified to get certified with pressure from their users. Makes sense to me. Mark How do you like that Pi hat? I don't really have a need for it at all, but I'm curious. I'm also curious why anyone would use that over the G3P. Should I assume it is just because the G3P isn't "roon ready"? I didn't think the quality of a cheap add-on DAC would be acceptable to most. Again, only curious what your opinion is on this. Thanks! Mine are both in headphone stations in my house...not connected to a processor. That said - before, my headphone station I used had an Emotiva DC-1 DAC. The DC-1 was a GREAT DAC., but when I got my XMC-1 I felt the XMC-1 was "just as good" as the DC-1 when the XMC-1 was in reference stereo. I had been streaming from my Pi to the DC-1 to an Emotiva BasX A100 amp for headphone use when I decided to try the HifiBerry DAC. I felt the HifiBerry HAT was just as good as the DC-1 in that application. So, I sold the DC-1 and used the proceeds to buy the Allo BOSS Dac + a Schitt headphone amp for a 2nd headphone station. I've very happy with both HAT's and both headphone amps (but I like the A100 best). Frankly, I was shocked at how good the HATs are, but they both use some good DAC chips. I've not compared them directly to my LH Labs Geek Pulse Infinity DAC, but at some point I plan to. I've like by Geek better than the XMC-1 DAC's in reference stereo (by far) so...not expecting the HAT's to be that good. But, I've not tested. But...for streaming music...a Pi is great without a HAT DAC. The Pi, without the HAT DAC, is Roon ready. And, you can send its digital output via USB to a G3P and it works great. Mark |
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Post by megash0n on Sept 21, 2020 19:56:56 GMT -5
How do you like that Pi hat? I don't really have a need for it at all, but I'm curious. I'm also curious why anyone would use that over the G3P. Should I assume it is just because the G3P isn't "roon ready"? I didn't think the quality of a cheap add-on DAC would be acceptable to most. Again, only curious what your opinion is on this. Thanks! Mine are both in headphone stations in my house...not connected to a processor. That said - before, my headphone station I used had an Emotiva DC-1 DAC. The DC-1 was a GREAT DAC., but when I got my XMC-1 I felt the XMC-1 was "just as good" as the DC-1 when the XMC-1 was in reference stereo. I had been streaming from my Pi to the DC-1 to an Emotiva BasX A100 amp for headphone use when I decided to try the HifiBerry DAC. I felt the HifiBerry HAT was just as good as the DC-1 in that application. So, I sold the DC-1 and used the proceeds to buy the Allo BOSS Dac + a Schitt headphone amp for a 2nd headphone station. I've very happy with both HAT's and both headphone amps (but I like the A100 best). Frankly, I was shocked at how good the HATs are, but they both use some good DAC chips. I've not compared them directly to my LH Labs Geek Pulse Infinity DAC, but at some point I plan to. I've like by Geek better than the XMC-1 DAC's in reference stereo (by far) so...not expecting the HAT's to be that good. But, I've not tested. But...for streaming music...a Pi is great without a HAT DAC. The Pi, without the HAT DAC, is Roon ready. And, you can send its digital output via USB to a G3P and it works great. Mark cool. Thank you for your opinion. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 22, 2020 9:48:42 GMT -5
So, klinemj & brubacca, as I understand you, the Raspberry Pi is a generic Roon destination that can be used with its own DAC (the HAT) or with any other DAC (Roon compliant or not)? If this is the case, what are the limits of the R-Pi in passing high-resolution audio? Does the R-Pi pass MQA data? Is it DCS-compatible? Is it accessible over Ethernet? What HAT analog outputs are available (analog RCA, balanced XLR)? What R-Pi digital outputs are available (USB, Coaxial, Optical, AES/EBU, HDMI)? I'm presuming that the R-Pi is economical enough to use anywhere for multiple system points? How much more does the HAT cost? Don't research these questions - just tell me what you know off the top of your head & I'll research the rest. Thanks - Glenn |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 22, 2020 12:14:06 GMT -5
So, klinemj & brubacca, as I understand you, the Raspberry Pi is a generic Roon destination that can be used with its own DAC (the HAT) or with any other DAC (Roon compliant or not)? If this is the case, what are the limits of the R-Pi in passing high-resolution audio? Does the R-Pi pass MQA data? Is it DCS-compatible? Is it accessible over Ethernet? What HAT analog outputs are available (analog RCA, balanced XLR)? What R-Pi digital outputs are available (USB, Coaxial, Optical, AES/EBU, HDMI)? I'm presuming that the R-Pi is economical enough to use anywhere for multiple system points? How much more does the HAT cost? Don't research these questions - just tell me what you know off the top of your head & I'll research the rest. Thanks - Glenn Off the top of my head, the answers vary based on the DAC HAT you choose. I have the HifiBerry DAC+ Pro and the Allo Boss Player. Here's a link to the Hifiberry DAC+ Pro. www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac-pro/ It doesn't mention MQA, but it can do 24 bit 192 kHz and uses a Burr Brown DAC chip. It's about $40. Hifiberry also has an option for XLR outputs. A standard Pi case won't do...need a bigger case, but they are available on their site. The Allo Boss Player comes with a very cool case. That the main reason I got it. It does go up to 384 kHz and I believe it's only RCA outputs and a TI chip. Here's a link: www.allo.com/sparky/boss-player.html I bought mine pre-assembled because it was as cheap or cheaper than buying the parts and building it myself. On digital outputs, my Pi has USB and HDMI. Hifiberry offers HATs that allow SPDIF outputs. A basic Raspberry Pi 4 card has USB 2 and 3 connections. From what I recall, any Pi before version 4 is limited to passing digital at 24/192. Not sure about the Pi 4. Also, standard Pi's can take an ethernet in. I believe they can also be set up for wifi, but I've not looked into that. I hope that helps. Mark |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 22, 2020 12:18:11 GMT -5
And, one last thing...when I invested in Sonos many years ago - if I had the option of using a Pi all over at multiple places in my house instead of Sonos, I would have taken it. They work great and with Roon you can use them just like Sonos.
Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 22, 2020 13:57:31 GMT -5
Thank you, Mark - valuable information!
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Post by brubacca on Sept 23, 2020 7:52:13 GMT -5
Boomzilla,
I have only used the rapsberry pi4. The 4 is more powerful and the USB and Ethernet are on separate channels. On the Pi3 the Ethernet and USB shared a channel. I just didn't like this.
I have been considering adding a hat for digital output to one of my DACs. I still have the Rega Dac and the Schiit Gumby.
From my research people really like the Pi2AES. People on the naim forum think this makes the Pi as good as one of the Naim Transports that start at $3k (as a transport).
Alli digital is also highly regarded as a transport. They have the regular and the signature. It is strongly encouraged on the signature to use their Shanti power supply adding to the cost. You can also but the Allo as a completed unit with one of 4 OSes.
I have taken the plunge on neither as I just use the Pi4 USB out directly to Gumby (Unison their own USB implementation) and an old Musical Fidelity USB to Spdif converter.
I use RoPieee as the OS for roon. You have to connect with an Ethernet cable initially to configure the built in wireless. I use mine wirelessly.
Also you only need the base level RPi4. I think that is 2GB now.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2020 8:42:50 GMT -5
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 28, 2020 15:58:41 GMT -5
Thank you, Mark - valuable information! Just happened to notice I am listening to Tidal via Roon and selected an album and Roon played the MQA version via my Allo Boss Player. That made me realize...with Roon, it's doing the first "unfold" so the Allo can certainly handle that output from Roon. I doubt the Allo is doing the 2nd unfold, though. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 5:13:12 GMT -5
So can that second unfold be done via software, or must if be done in hardware? If the latter, then the Raspberry Pi is not fully "MQA Compatible?"
And on a further note, does it seem that MQA is going to be a viable technology going forward, or will it be another castoff such as Beta tape?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 1, 2020 10:52:46 GMT -5
So can that second unfold be done via software, or must if be done in hardware? If the latter, then the Raspberry Pi is not fully "MQA Compatible?" And on a further note, does it seem that MQA is going to be a viable technology going forward, or will it be another castoff such as Beta tape? I'm not sure whether it's just software or also hardware to do the 2nd unfold. And, frankly - don't really care as I doubt I could hear much difference (but it would be nice to try!). I did confirm my Allo was playing MQA material at 24 bit/96 kHz the other day. I forgot there's a little indicator in Roon you can click to see the full signal path and what's going on. Re. MQA...I see more and more MQA material when I am playing music from Tidal via Roon. After listening to one of my ripped disks, additional music started playing when mine what done and it was MQA, as were the next 3 albums the system chose for me. Will it be a castoff? Who knows...but right now, I'm seeing a lot of it. Mark |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 1, 2020 13:56:01 GMT -5
I'm afraid I stopped paying attention to MQA some time ago... And I rarely seem to see it mentioned anywhere outside of Tidal lately....
As I recall the "first unfold" is the biggest "decode step". And that step can be, and often is, done in software.
The "final unfold" or "render" in MQA isn't really a decode at all...
It is simply having a DAC whose oversampling filter is configured with the parameters they specify... However that does mean that it is a characteristic of the DAC hardware itself...
Remember that "MQA" is really several separate things: - it is a way of recording new content (although I'm not sure of the details there)
- it is a way of "remastering" existing content to change (improve???) the way it sounds
- it is a CODEC for streaming audio content (which is used internally by the Tidal client) - it is a specification for "final decoding" content that is recorded in the MQA format (there's some overlap - which is one reason why it's confusing)
So can that second unfold be done via software, or must if be done in hardware? If the latter, then the Raspberry Pi is not fully "MQA Compatible?" And on a further note, does it seem that MQA is going to be a viable technology going forward, or will it be another castoff such as Beta tape? I'm not sure whether it's just software or also hardware to do the 2nd unfold. And, frankly - don't really care as I doubt I could hear much difference (but it would be nice to try!). I did confirm my Allo was playing MQA material at 24 bit/96 kHz the other day. I forgot there's a little indicator in Roon you can click to see the full signal path and what's going on. Re. MQA...I see more and more MQA material when I am playing music from Tidal via Roon. After listening to one of my ripped disks, additional music started playing when mine what done and it was MQA, as were the next 3 albums the system chose for me. Will it be a castoff? Who knows...but right now, I'm seeing a lot of it. Mark |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 1, 2020 14:12:40 GMT -5
Let's meet in the middle and soften "distortion" to "coloration".... (I'm afraid there's no such thing as "magic")
A long time ago I owned an expensive pair of sunglasses that had a yellow tint to them... I enjoyed them very much... And, especially on overcast days, they made the world look rather more pleasant... And, because they blocked out the blue colors, they did actually enable you to see some things more clearly...
But there is no way you could claim that they enabled you to see things exactly as they were... (but I also wouldn't describe what they did as "distortion" either) (also, and importantly, they made no claim to be providing accurate color rendition
I simply draw the distinction between.... - enabling you to better hear details that are actually present in the recording - creating a pleasant simulation of details that aren't actually present in the recording
(but let's agree that both can sound pleasant)
And, incidentally, I would agree with what you said... I've always found any sort of output transformers, including autoformers, to alter the sound in interesting ways... (although, to be fair, McIntosh uses very good transformers, so they do so far less than many others)
Also, incidentally, of course it's real... otherwise you wouldn't be able to hear it... And, yes, those yellow sunglasses were also quite expensive... and worth every penny of their price... But... accurate... no.
Boom, agree with @keithl as to frequency response. However, the real magic of tubes imo has to do with the imaging and soundstaging they are capable of, and also imo result from the output transformer/ speaker interface. The only solid state amp I've heard that does this really well is my McIntosh MC452, which of course uses an autoformer. I'll also add that this characteristic doesn't show up in spec sheets, ASR "tests" or other measures prized by "objectivists". @keithl will explain this away as "distortion" but is real to me and many, many others. And worth every penny. Very easy these days to build an amp that measures well, another thing entirely to make one that sounds great. |
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Post by KeithL on Oct 1, 2020 14:19:15 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Roon provided a standard PCM output - which should work just fine with any standard PCM DAC.
It sounds to me like Roon thinks they're Apple... or wishes they were... As in "trying to force their customers to only buy DACs from vendors who have paid them for an approval sticker". (And, if so, next year they may be requiring a "Roon encryption chip" to connect to their ecosystem...  ) So basically Roon refuses to work with any perfectly functioning dac unless they talk to Roon? Didn't realize they had enough market penetration to isolate themselves into their own ecosystem... Eitherway...Schiit is a Roon Partner and Schitt says it will work. roonlabs.com/partner-schiitIf you do consider them, you may want to double check though because of the new advice. My read of their comments on the link brubacca provided (plus some other things I looked at) is that Roon is saying, effectively, that "if we haven't certified it as Roon Ready, it may not work right in total, and we don't want problems blamed on us" That said - they did clearly say that if you have a device that's not certified (shows the "pink banner" within Roon) - you can keep using it UNLESS you disable it. Once you disable it, you won't be able to enable it again until the maker of the device proves they are indeed Roon ready. I think that's fair...Roon is protecting its equity, allowing users to keep using uncertified gear, and providing a pathway for makers of uncertified to get certified with pressure from their users. Makes sense to me. Mark |
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Post by audiobill on Oct 1, 2020 14:25:36 GMT -5
You can never know what a recording engineer heard, you will always know what you find “pleasant”.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 1, 2020 14:30:46 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Roon provided a standard PCM output - which should work just fine with any standard PCM DAC.
It sounds to me like Roon thinks they're Apple... or wishes they were... As in "trying to force their customers to only buy DACs from vendors who have paid them for an approval sticker". (And, if so, next year they may be requiring a "Roon encryption chip" to connect to their ecosystem... ) My read of their comments on the link brubacca provided (plus some other things I looked at) is that Roon is saying, effectively, that "if we haven't certified it as Roon Ready, it may not work right in total, and we don't want problems blamed on us" That said - they did clearly say that if you have a device that's not certified (shows the "pink banner" within Roon) - you can keep using it UNLESS you disable it. Once you disable it, you won't be able to enable it again until the maker of the device proves they are indeed Roon ready. I think that's fair...Roon is protecting its equity, allowing users to keep using uncertified gear, and providing a pathway for makers of uncertified to get certified with pressure from their users. Makes sense to me. Mark According to Roon, their output can be PCM or DSD. kb.roonlabs.com/ArchitectureAs to your other point - at this point, I don't really care because all my devices are on their approved list already. And, as for them possibly requiring a "Roon encryption chip", it appears they already know how to not output to a device that's not on their "nice" list. They already implemented that 9/21/20 with no hardware required in the DAC/receiving device. I don't know how they did it, so don't ask me (and again - I don't really care). For me, Roon works great. For most things - I'm even using it to control my Sonos devices (while my wife and kids use the Sonos app on their phones). I like the Room interface better than I like Sonos' interface. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 14:37:53 GMT -5
...And, incidentally, I would agree with what you said... I've always found any sort of output transformers, including autoformers, to alter the sound in interesting ways... (although, to be fair, McIntosh uses very good transformers, so they do so far less (damage) than many others) ... The effect of output transformers varies by loudspeaker. I don't know if it's a crossover interaction, a driver interaction, a driver-cabinet interaction, or some combination of all. But some speakers are definitely more "output-transformer-friendly" than others. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 1, 2020 14:40:16 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Roon provided a standard PCM output - which should work just fine with any standard PCM DAC.
It sounds to me like Roon thinks they're Apple... or wishes they were... As in "trying to force their customers to only buy DACs from vendors who have paid them for an approval sticker". (And, if so, next year they may be requiring a "Roon encryption chip" to connect to their ecosystem... ) There IS a difference - Roon has enough of a customer base that, although they aren't Apple, they have some stroke in their industry. Meridian (MQA), on the other hand, is still a flea on the dog. |
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