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Post by brubacca on Nov 9, 2022 9:14:21 GMT -5
Good Luck with Rock. If you want to save that Windows install you could always just remove the drive and put in a new one. Rock only needs a small drive anyway and a M2. small drive is not real expensive.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 9, 2022 10:24:07 GMT -5
The short answer is - no... but close. When you buy a computer that comes with Windows pre-installed on it you are paying for Windows. And you can buy some computers either without an operating system installed - or with a free version of Linux on them. However, the manufacturers pay very little for those pre-installed versions of Windows they include (a LOT less than you pay if you purchase a separate copy). As a result, since the manufacturers sell more computers with Windows on them, and sometimes put those on sale, that is going to make a lot more difference than the few dollars extra you're paying for Windows. For example... some companies, like Dell, will let you buy some models without the operating system... However they always charge far more to add upgrades than to leave off standard items... So you save very little by ordering a computer without Windows that normally comes with it ( FAR less than it would cost to buy it later if you change your mind). I haven't looked lately... but to offer an example from the Windows 7 days... A certain model came standard with Windows 7 Home... It cost $50 or $75 extra to upgrade to Windows 7 Pro... But they only took off $20 or $25 if you asked for it without Windows... (And, at the same time, a "full bought copy of Windows 7 Pro" was around $125 - $175 . ) I will also mention that, with Windows 10 and Windows 11, the license for Windows is tied to "the computer" and NOT the hard drive. That's a nice way of saying that, if you take that hard drive, with Windows already on it, it will probably NOT work (or won't be licensed / won't activate) if you put it in another computer. Windows uses some unspecified, and somewhat vague, combination of hardware details and serial numbers to recognize "the computer". Ever since Windows XP they've been pretty good at allowing you to upgrade "the current computer" but figuring out if you try to clone or move the install to another one. (That's why it still works - even if you upgrade the boot drive to an SSD on a licensed computer.) Can you SAVE MONEY by skipping Windows altogether and going with LINUX? Or does Microshaft get a piece of every computer sold......regardless? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 9, 2022 10:32:01 GMT -5
That's one easy way to do it... especially if the original drive is a spinning drive and you plan to upgrade to an SSD anyway. Note that, unlike in the old days, it's now dead simple to download a new copy of Windows 10 or Windows 11 when and if you want to reinstall it. You just download and run the appropriate free "Media Creation Tool" and it makes you a nice new up-to-date Windows install DVD or USB stick of your choice. It's free and there are no hoops to jump through... Good Luck with Rock. If you want to save that Windows install you could always just remove the drive and put in a new one. Rock only needs a small drive anyway and a M2. small drive is not real expensive. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 9, 2022 10:41:04 GMT -5
The thing to keep in mind with streamers is that audio streamers work pretty much like video streamers... This means that not all of them have the client software that works with a particular streaming service... For example, many streamers support Tidal and QoBuz - although not all of them support hi-res files... And pertty much everyone supports Spotify... But very few support Amazon Music (Amazon has a client for computers, and for Sonos and one or two other streamers, but most other streamers don't support them). The other annoying thing is the fine print about HOW a lot of streamer support a lot of the services they do support. Many support a long list of services, but only a few internally, and the rest ONLY through their phone app. For the ones that require the phone app, not only must you control them from your phone, but your phone must remain present and connected while you're playing music from them. So, not only are they using phone data and batteries but, if you turn your phone off or leave the house, the music stops playing. (The music is actually being streamed by your phone and "cast" to the streamer for any services that the streamer itself does not support "internally".) It's also worth mentioning, although probably pretty obvious, that the analog outputs on most streamers aren't especially good... I **DO** have Ethernet... I could leave the NUC in my computer room & put a small streamer in the music room (I think there are some inexpensive ones that work well?). To date, I've avoided streamers as an unnecessary complication. But if I want to move my source (NUC or Mac mini) away from my audio rack, I'll need (or at least I think I'll need) a streamer. As I understand it, the purpose of the streamer is to accept audio via Ethernet or WiFi and send it out in a flavor that a DAC can digest. Most (semi-expensive) streamers seem to offer your choice of USB or Ethernet. The (really-expensive) ones include other digital outputs. And a lot of streamers integrate the streamer and DAC giving you analog outputs. I think I want a cheap streamer with no DAC (I've already GOT DACs). Any more, I've read that TOSLINK & USB are roughly equivalent in sound quality. Is this so? Since I don't want to mess with WiFi, I think I want an Ethernet input on my streamer. But the easiest option may still be to omit the streamer completely and just leave a NUC on the audio rack... |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 9, 2022 11:57:54 GMT -5
Familiar with Roon? Engineered to resolve these issues.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 9, 2022 12:25:43 GMT -5
So DOES Roon now support Amazon Music? To be quite fair I simply don't care much about the other cool things that Roon offers... (Although it does do a lot of cool stuff that a lot of other folks seem to find useful.) But, the last time I looked, they still weren't integrated with Amazon Music, which is an absolute deal-breaker for me. Familiar with Roon? Engineered to resolve these issues. |
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Post by audiobill on Nov 9, 2022 12:30:26 GMT -5
I don’t do Amazon Music, substandard when I tried it .
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 9, 2022 12:48:17 GMT -5
I'd use Amazon Music / Apple Music / YouTube Music mostly on my computer - so Roon support is academic.
I do use Qobuz with Roon (fully supported).
The NUC arrived today, so I just need to go through their step-by-step ROCK install.
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Post by leonski on Nov 9, 2022 14:14:47 GMT -5
The short answer is - no... but close. When you buy a computer that comes with Windows pre-installed on it you are paying for Windows. And you can buy some computers either without an operating system installed - or with a free version of Linux on them. However, the manufacturers pay very little for those pre-installed versions of Windows they include (a LOT less than you pay if you purchase a separate copy). As a result, since the manufacturers sell more computers with Windows on them, and sometimes put those on sale, that is going to make a lot more difference than the few dollars extra you're paying for Windows. For example... some companies, like Dell, will let you buy some models without the operating system... However they always charge far more to add upgrades than to leave off standard items... So you save very little by ordering a computer without Windows that normally comes with it ( FAR less than it would cost to buy it later if you change your mind). I haven't looked lately... but to offer an example from the Windows 7 days... A certain model came standard with Windows 7 Home... It cost $50 or $75 extra to upgrade to Windows 7 Pro... But they only took off $20 or $25 if you asked for it without Windows... (And, at the same time, a "full bought copy of Windows 7 Pro" was around $125 - $175 . ) I will also mention that, with Windows 10 and Windows 11, the license for Windows is tied to "the computer" and NOT the hard drive. That's a nice way of saying that, if you take that hard drive, with Windows already on it, it will probably NOT work (or won't be licensed / won't activate) if you put it in another computer. Windows uses some unspecified, and somewhat vague, combination of hardware details and serial numbers to recognize "the computer". Ever since Windows XP they've been pretty good at allowing you to upgrade "the current computer" but figuring out if you try to clone or move the install to another one. (That's why it still works - even if you upgrade the boot drive to an SSD on a licensed computer.) Can you SAVE MONEY by skipping Windows altogether and going with LINUX? Or does Microshaft get a piece of every computer sold......regardless? When I STARTED in 'computing', my first computer was bought as a DIY. Motherboard? Memory? Pentium II @266mhz.....Video board (early AGP?) Case and monitor...... Put it together and my neighbor came and loaded Win95 FROM FLOPPIES! I later bought Win95b which I think ALSO had first gen USB Drivers..... As for $$$? I'm not certain how much I did or didn't save. But I did repeat this years later with some pretty good stuff...... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2022 11:47:38 GMT -5
Amazon seems to work just fine for me... and they have the best selection of the sort of music I listen to. It is somewhat annoying that their Windows client doesn't support WASAPI mode... But, to be honest, if you set your computer to 96k or 192k, the sound quality is just fine. (You get actual hi-res music in hi-res and upsampling 44k content to 96k or 192k really doesn't hurt anything.) I don't especially like Amazon's interface... But I've never seen ANY streaming or music management interface that I actually like. I have a few basic playlists... but I have no interest in the app picking what to play for me or guessing what I want to hear. For music I physically have I use Volumio on a Raspberry Pi.... and a nice local USB hard drive. Or Foobar2000 on a Windows computer... (And I store my music in a nice organized hierarchical set of folders where the actual files are easy to find.) And, no, I have heard a few MQA tracks that sounded a bit better than their PCM equivalents... But, for the most part, I do not find it to offer a consistent improvement. I don’t do Amazon Music, substandard when I tried it . |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 10, 2022 11:55:00 GMT -5
I can top you there... for old... I had an Apple II+ (with a whole 64k of RAM)... And a Ti99 (with the external floppy disc drive bay) And then "PC compatibles" with everything from DOS 2.1 on ... And then there was GEM/OS, and GEOS, and OS/2 ... My first PC compatible had a 10 mB hard drive... And it had room for DOS and every program and picture I owned... The short answer is - no... but close. When you buy a computer that comes with Windows pre-installed on it you are paying for Windows. And you can buy some computers either without an operating system installed - or with a free version of Linux on them. However, the manufacturers pay very little for those pre-installed versions of Windows they include (a LOT less than you pay if you purchase a separate copy). As a result, since the manufacturers sell more computers with Windows on them, and sometimes put those on sale, that is going to make a lot more difference than the few dollars extra you're paying for Windows. For example... some companies, like Dell, will let you buy some models without the operating system... However they always charge far more to add upgrades than to leave off standard items... So you save very little by ordering a computer without Windows that normally comes with it ( FAR less than it would cost to buy it later if you change your mind). I haven't looked lately... but to offer an example from the Windows 7 days... A certain model came standard with Windows 7 Home... It cost $50 or $75 extra to upgrade to Windows 7 Pro... But they only took off $20 or $25 if you asked for it without Windows... (And, at the same time, a "full bought copy of Windows 7 Pro" was around $125 - $175 . ) I will also mention that, with Windows 10 and Windows 11, the license for Windows is tied to "the computer" and NOT the hard drive. That's a nice way of saying that, if you take that hard drive, with Windows already on it, it will probably NOT work (or won't be licensed / won't activate) if you put it in another computer. Windows uses some unspecified, and somewhat vague, combination of hardware details and serial numbers to recognize "the computer". Ever since Windows XP they've been pretty good at allowing you to upgrade "the current computer" but figuring out if you try to clone or move the install to another one. (That's why it still works - even if you upgrade the boot drive to an SSD on a licensed computer.) When I STARTED in 'computing', my first computer was bought as a DIY. Motherboard? Memory? Pentium II @266mhz.....Video board (early AGP?) Case and monitor...... Put it together and my neighbor came and loaded Win95 FROM FLOPPIES! I later bought Win95b which I think ALSO had first gen USB Drivers..... As for $$$? I'm not certain how much I did or didn't save. But I did repeat this years later with some pretty good stuff...... |
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Post by leonski on Nov 10, 2022 15:16:21 GMT -5
What a crack-up. Some old stuff by modern standards. A friend of mine built the Sinclair computer from a kit.......
And I've got a VIC-20 out in the garage. With the CASSETTE tape drive. I think it has 4k memory or some such?
At work we had a dedicated metrology machine......I don't remember just WHAT it measured, but it was I think windows 3.1?
I worked about a block from COMMODORE when the VIC-20 and the C-64 were both popular. I visited their fab, after
a job offer but decided the place was a DISASTER and stayed put...
I worked for WDC when the first HDs came out. I can't remember capacity......But TINY by modern reckoning.
But I ALSO worked for WDC when they got tied up with I think......UCI or SDSU? with something called
the Pascal Microengine. I don't think I ever actually saw one, but a book was in our stock room ABOUT it and programming.
It might have even been a 4 bit machine, but 8 bit TOPS.
Remember the KAYPRO? Like a computer in a suitcase? Another buddy worked shipping for a copy / competitor. He borrowed
a machine for a weekend and it was a monster. It came with another suitcase of documentation / instructions.
But the company had problems with copyright infringement and when THAT got sorted out? The Owner / President of the whole thing
ran his NEW FERRARI into a bridge abutment killing himself and basically taking the company down at the same time This? The day they
went PUBLIC....
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 10, 2022 15:18:43 GMT -5
I learned FORTRAN using punch-card decks. Our first process-control computer used 8” floppy’s and had 8k RAM.
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Post by leonski on Nov 10, 2022 15:36:06 GMT -5
My HIGHSCHOOL in '67 had an IBM computer. And a couple punch card 'makers' and the computer was ALL punch card 'driven'.
I was starting to learn FORTRAN, as well......But the Hard Drive with the computer MIGHT have been a clean-room assembled Winchester?
But in any event, certainly of tiny capacity by even cell phone standards.......I have NO idea of 'model number' or type, but I do know this
was PRE IBM370, which was a mainstay for many years.
Ever see PUNCH TAPE? I have a couple rolls of it around here.....somewhere...... The program is for Great Circle Navigation and was
written by a computer guy who I think at that time worked for the now GONE Sinclair Research Labs in Chicago. This was a monster machine
an had enough AC capacity (mostly vacuum tube logic) to keep a couple story office building frozen. It had a Large (couple feet on a side) PLUGBOARD
to change some features or whatever.....I'm not clear. But it WORKED.
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Post by audiobill on Nov 10, 2022 15:44:20 GMT -5
Compaq "luggable"
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Post by geebo on Nov 10, 2022 16:21:20 GMT -5
I can top you there... for old... I had an Apple II+ (with a whole 64k of RAM)... And a Ti99 (with the external floppy disc drive bay) And then "PC compatibles" with everything from DOS 2.1 on ... And then there was GEM/OS, and GEOS, and OS/2 ... My first PC compatible had a 10 mB hard drive... And it had room for DOS and every program and picture I owned... When I STARTED in 'computing', my first computer was bought as a DIY. Motherboard? Memory? Pentium II @266mhz.....Video board (early AGP?) Case and monitor...... Put it together and my neighbor came and loaded Win95 FROM FLOPPIES! I later bought Win95b which I think ALSO had first gen USB Drivers..... As for $$$? I'm not certain how much I did or didn't save. But I did repeat this years later with some pretty good stuff...... I also had a TI99/4a but couldn't afford a floppy drive so I had to settle for a cassette player for storage. And I also remember my first 10meg hard drive. It was more storage than I would ever need. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 10, 2022 18:17:54 GMT -5
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Nov 10, 2022 18:22:25 GMT -5
My HIGHSCHOOL in '67 had an IBM computer. And a couple punch card 'makers' and the computer was ALL punch card 'driven'. I was starting to learn FORTRAN, as well......But the Hard Drive with the computer MIGHT have been a clean-room assembled Winchester? But in any event, certainly of tiny capacity by even cell phone standards.......I have NO idea of 'model number' or type, but I do know this was PRE IBM370, which was a mainstay for many years. Ever see PUNCH TAPE? I have a couple rolls of it around here.....somewhere...... The program is for Great Circle Navigation and was written by a computer guy who I think at that time worked for the now GONE Sinclair Research Labs in Chicago. This was a monster machine an had enough AC capacity (mostly vacuum tube logic) to keep a couple story office building frozen. It had a Large (couple feet on a side) PLUGBOARD to change some features or whatever.....I'm not clear. But it WORKED. I remember those days. We had to line up to take turns to have our punch cards read by the punch card reader. Each line of code was 1 card. I did drop my stack ont he floor once!!! Learned my lesson. Thereafter, I started drawing a diagonal line in pencil across the top of the stack so if I ever did drop them, I could put them back in sequence. That was my backup plan if the elastic band that I started putting around them failed. Re: punch tape - after a while you got good at reading the content of paper tape based on the location of the punch holes! The first desktop computer I worked on was a Superbrain. No hard disk storage but it had dual 8" floppy drives - 1 for the DOS OS and 1 for applications. I would swap the applications floppy depending on whether I wanted Supercalc/Lotus 123 or Wordperfect/Wordstar. Them were the days! |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Nov 10, 2022 18:23:49 GMT -5
I learned FORTRAN using punch-card decks. Our first process-control computer used 8” floppy’s and had 8k RAM. Fortran IV where all lines started in column 7... |
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Post by leonski on Nov 10, 2022 20:33:47 GMT -5
Where I worked in semiconductor processing? Our UPGRADED furnaces (made by THERMCO) had 2x of the 8" drives which were of only OK reliability. One engineer went from machine to machine doing a weekly backup since recipes changed over time.......I don't know IF networking was an option. Ours were 'upgraded' to 4" tubes from 3". A 'unique' programming language but did include standard statements like 'goto' or 'return' or 'gosup', and a few others. Pretty straightforward. The NEXT generation was PC driven. www.chiphistory.org/80-thermco-diffusion-furnaceIf you're curious.... |
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