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Post by Boomzilla on May 20, 2024 9:49:17 GMT -5
For the time being, I'm using the AudioQuest Dragonfly Red DAC attached directly to the NUC. The Dragonfly's analog output goes to the AVR in stereo bypass mode.
This is OK temporarily, but I want a better DAC when the Roon Nucleus comes in. The question is how much more than what the Dragonfly cost must I spend to get audibly better sound?
If measurements are to be believed (more often than not, they aren't) one can get a world-class DAC for about $100. Topping & SMSL,are two Chinese brands that score highly. I've owned a Topping before and returned it due to its lack of sound quality.
At the $700 to $800 range, two excellent options exist:
1) The Emotiva Stealth DAC - This one has balanced audio outputs, internal volume control via remote, good DAC chips, and an excellent analog output stage. 2) The Black Ice Audio tube DAC - No balanced outputs, no volume control, a good DAC chip, and tube output stage. I've heard & liked this one! 3-ish...) If I wanted to spend even more, there's Benchmark, Schiit Yggdrasil, or others - but I don't want to spend this much.
In between $100 and $800, my fave would be the Schiit Modi Multibit ($300). It sounds good, but has no balanced outputs, no volume control, and no tubes.
Now the lack of a volume control might not be an issue - I have a remote-controlled passive volume box that I can use (Or I can use the DSP in Roon to control volume) The lack of balanced outputs may not be an issue either - I find no real audible difference between unbalanced & balanced. If I wanted tubes, they wouldn't need to be a part of the DAC - I've got a tube preamp that can be used as a tube buffer.
Summary: As measured, the $100 Chinese DACs are as good (at the actual digital to analog conversion) as the most expensive DACs on the market. Where DACs differ (and widely) is in their analog output sections. In fact, one could almost say with authority that when you spend more on a DAC, you aren't buying more accurate D/A conversion - just a better-sounding analog output stage. And if your DAC is putting out a poor-sounding analog signal, you can't get back the fidelity downstream. If you could, then adding my tube buffer downstream of my Dragonfly would sound world-class. It doesn't.
For AVRs, sometimes the DACs are as good as stand-alone DACs. The newer the AVR, the (likely) better the actual DAC chips? But AVRs (like DACs) vary widely (even more widely than stand-alone DACs) in their analog sound. I've liked the Yamaha DAC sounds - even their cheapest AVRs can sound stunning. I don't know about other brands.
Any decision I make needs to be informed by what I already have. No sense replacing things that don't need to be replaced! I have two world-class power amplifiers in my Emotiva Stealth PA-1 monoblocks with Class-D circuitry. I have one better than average AVR (Arcam is a good brand). And I have a bunch of adequate quality Chinese accessories (remote control passive volume / tube buffer with manual volume control / line-level switchers / speaker-level switchers / etc.). The weak spots in my current system are the (older) DACs in the Arcam AVR and the (cheaper) DAC in the Dragonfly.
Your thoughts? Glenn
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Post by leonski on May 20, 2024 14:02:05 GMT -5
Brickwall and SurgeX address the same basic technology.....and presumably any involved patents.....ONE may be a licensed version of the other?
We've been over this before. And yes, it appears the Series Mode type is superior. But they go from Mid-200s$ on UP. The least expensive one, is not IMO, suitable for a high power system having only a 14ga power cord. Go up line for a 12ga power cord and more outlets.....
I just wonder if you can get a series mode in a 'serious' size, for Whole Home protection. For me? That would be the obvious choice if I were to 'drop anchor' in a lightning prone area......which is most of the southern states including Arizona.....
I think that in a serious, assault on system noise and voltage protection, you can find a place for an Isolation Transformer.
My conditioner has ONE additional feature. It will cut OFF power if voltage goes above 135vac or Below about 95vac.....It works well.....
MOV devices Also wear out. And in extreme cases can be a 2ndary source of yet More problems.....
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 20, 2024 15:55:03 GMT -5
You definitely can get series-mode whole-home and commercial systems... but those get VERY pricey... and VERY large as well. ( www.toruspower.com/product-ranges/ ) However it makes more sense for us normal folks to use multiple smaller units for things like big power amps. For example, if I had multiple XPA amps, I would use one of these for EACH. The cost isn't bad if you look at it as a fraction of the value of the amp it's protecting. www.brickwall.com/collections/surge-protectors-home-theater-hdtv/products/two-outlet-audio-surge-protectorThey specify a "1% full load regulation"... which means a 1.25V maximum loss at full draw... This, and the noise filtering you get, are comparable to an isolation transformer with similar ratings... Remember that, whatever voltage your power company is delivering to you, at best they only promise to be "within 5% of that most of the time". Brickwall and SurgeX address the same basic technology.....and presumably any involved patents.....ONE may be a licensed version of the other? We've been over this before. And yes, it appears the Series Mode type is superior. But they go from Mid-200s$ on UP. The least expensive one, is not IMO, suitable for a high power system having only a 14ga power cord. Go up line for a 12ga power cord and more outlets..... I just wonder if you can get a series mode in a 'serious' size, for Whole Home protection. For me? That would be the obvious choice if I were to 'drop anchor' in a lightning prone area......which is most of the southern states including Arizona..... I think that in a serious, assault on system noise and voltage protection, you can find a place for an Isolation Transformer. My conditioner has ONE additional feature. It will cut OFF power if voltage goes above 135vac or Below about 95vac.....It works well..... MOV devices Also wear out. And in extreme cases can be a 2ndary source of yet More problems.....
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Post by leonski on May 20, 2024 16:47:35 GMT -5
The SurgeX PF-420 'whole room' and 'branch' protector goes OVER 3 large retail.
IF I were starting a clean sheet design for a room, THIS would be part of the 'deal'......
Point of use IS attractive but I look at it as more stuff scattered around and driving the need
for more dedicated circuits. At least 3......One for amp(s) and depending on system,
one for pre / TV and another for digital devices......
My small (420va) Iso trans has been a wonder since first installed. The improvement was NOT subtle.....
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Post by Boomzilla on May 20, 2024 16:56:37 GMT -5
Clean up day today. I terminated the AVR ends of the speaker wires with banana plugs. Bare wire would have been better acoustically, but the terminals of the AVR are so close together than a single stray whisker from any of the bare wires would have created (potentially catastrophic) shorts. So to be on the safe side, I'll have the bananas at the amp. I dressed the speaker wires along the bottom of the bottom shelf (no power cords there) and secured them with stress-relief plastic zip-ties so that if I ever trip over a wire, I won't be yanking random things loose from the equipment shelf. The speakers are secured to the speaker stands with self-stick Velcro, so I can't yank a speaker off the stand, either. I could theoretically topple a stand with its speaker, but at least I'd have a little time to realize what was happening & catch the speaker & stand before they hit the floor - I've done so before... I'm still considering how to secure wiring that needs to remain stationary despite the stand being rolled around for rear access. Such connections include the power cord to the TV, the Ethernet cable to the TV, the HDMI cable to the TV, the coaxial cable from the wall to the cable box, and the power cords to the power strips attached to the equipment stand. Each of these may require some head scratching before implementing any solution. The NUC is (finally) set to NOT go to sleep when I don't want it to. I may experiment further with "wake on LAN" settings so that Roon Remote on the iPad can wake up the NUC and the Roon Core there. garbulky has his rig set up for voice control. He can say "watch a movie" and his preamp and amplifiers wake up, his TV wakes up, and his disc player turns on (while his preamp selects the disc player input). It's seriously cool. I think my wife might like that (no manual turning things on/off or trying to persuade the TV to switch to the right input. I'm also (maybe) reconsidering the attachment of the oven-screen (that holds the Ethernet switch, the proprietary Samsung HDMI input switch, and the Roku). Should this be attached to the equipment rack or to the wall below the TV? There are arguments both ways... And finally, should I avail myself of leonski's offer to build me a "mondo walla-hunga" surge suppressor? Yes, it would protect the equipment, but the total cost of my current equipment is actually minimal... Furthermore, after a small deductible, my homeowners insurance should cover any significant losses. Cheers and a safe & happy weekend to all'a youse! Boom
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Post by leonski on May 20, 2024 17:20:54 GMT -5
How much PER DAY of non-use does your homeowners insurance cover?
I'd have to start writing stuff down, but I'd bet I could build a perfectly serviceable 2-outlet surge protector with 4 foot 12-3 cord for 30$ to 40$ tops.......
Maybe less, if I start with an existing outlet strip and just add MOVs......
You'll spend THAT much in gas driving dead gear around to repair people......Not to mention missing missing Shark Tank since a critical piece of gear
died in that last lightning event......
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Post by leonski on May 20, 2024 19:59:20 GMT -5
Terminating wires:
I feel for 'ya, boom.
I bought a bunch of spade connectors for my 'to be reterminated' speaker wires.
But I didn't have the Mondo Crimpiing Tool to do it right.
So I dropped up to the nearest stereo store and ASKED.
I sat on the FLOOR in the main room and did everything I needed to do. Cut? Strip? Heat Shrink? Terminate?
Still in use, today and fine.
And to leave a good impression, I cleaned up after myself. Down to EVERY strand (wear your glasses to see) of copper
from the cuts......And took all my trash with me as I left. Boss was in the office watching Soccer on TV or some such.....
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2024 8:33:23 GMT -5
It all depends on how you look at things and what your GOAL actually is. In general, if you get something like a major surge, that destroys a lot of stuff, your homeowner's insurance will cover it. And, if it is the fault of the power company, and you can document it, then they will usually cover the damage. (Of course you have deductibles with your insurance... and the power company can require a bit of convincing.) Several surge protectors from APC and a few other major brands actually come with a guarantee... If any equipment that is connected to one of their devices is damaged by a surge they will replace the damaged equipment. APC used to promise to cover up to $25k on their $45 power strip... (I've heard that they can require a bit of convincing as well... but it is one more guarantee you can get.) I have one of the BrickWall surge protectors. I don't see it as unreasonable to pay $250 to protect an amplifier that cost $1000... I also don't see an issue with buying protection for the specific devices that require it... And I would cheerfully pay that much to protect the equipment that I actually cared about if I lived in a lightning-prone area. (However, to be quite blunt, I have never lived in such an area, and have never had anything damaged by any sort of surge or lightning strike.) Here's something to always keep in mind... "Surge protectors" are designed to protect stuff in your home from the sort of secondary surge you get from a lightning strike nearby on the power grid. The power grid itself has protection against lightning strikes and these surges are "the little bit that sometimes still gets through". You can also conceivably see a surge if various sorts of fault were to occur on the grid itself (like a transformer or generator failure). NO "SURGE PROTECTOR" WILL PROTECT YOU FROM A DIRECT LIGHTNING STRIKE.For protection from an actual lightning strike you need something that involves those big pointy metal things on the roof and big metal rods driven into the ground. It's also worth mentioning a few more things. For one thing the power grid itself is a lot more consistent and reliable than in "the old days". And, for another, most modern gear is not sensitive to MINOR surges. A surge of 200V would have blown an old-style 110V incandescent light bulb... But most modern audio and A/V gear is specified to run on anywhere between 110 and 230 VAC (so 200V is not going to bother it at all). The SurgeX PF-420 'whole room' and 'branch' protector goes OVER 3 large retail. IF I were starting a clean sheet design for a room, THIS would be part of the 'deal'...... Point of use IS attractive but I look at it as more stuff scattered around and driving the need for more dedicated circuits. At least 3......One for amp(s) and depending on system, one for pre / TV and another for digital devices...... My small (420va) Iso trans has been a wonder since first installed. The improvement was NOT subtle.....
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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2024 8:50:17 GMT -5
OK... Here's the issue I have had (and expect again):
We DO live in a lightning-prone area. My air conditioners both have surge suppressors (supplied by my HVAC company) that protect the AC-compressors. In addition to that, I have surge-suppressor/UPS devices on my computer systems and accessories. Some other devices in the home have surge suppressor strips (nighttime noise generator, kitchen table battery rechargers, living room lamps & phone chargers, etc.).
I've never had surge damage to anything despite the fact that we've had really close lightning strikes many times. But what HAS burned out suppressor strips multiple times are issues with the generator. When the generator is running out of gas (or has fuel supply issues such as a vacuum on the gas tank or a partially plugged gas filter), the generator can swing its operating speed significantly. This means that the house no longer gets 120VAC @ 60 Hz., but rather variable voltage at variable frequencies. Household devices (and surge suppressors) DO NOT LIKE THIS! I've smoked at least two surge suppressor strips this way (literally - smoke was pouring out).
One would think that the generator would have its own protection and that it would disconnect the load if the voltage or frequency were outside of normal parameters. But no - this is a portable Generac model (a brand that I'll NEVER buy again).
So the main reason I'd need any further power conditioning would be to deal with frequencies other than 60Hz and voltages less than 120VAC. Unless I'm protected from those, I'm just wasting money.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,083
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Post by KeithL on May 21, 2024 9:47:54 GMT -5
It is worth mentioning that you can usually get things like big crimpers really cheap on places like eBay. And you may be shocked to know that some of the cheap tools you find on eBay actually work really well. (They may be Chinese knockoffs, and may not last as well as expensive ones, but that doesn't matter since you only have a few wires to crimp.) Terminating wires: I feel for 'ya, boom. I bought a bunch of spade connectors for my 'to be reterminated' speaker wires. But I didn't have the Mondo Crimpiing Tool to do it right. So I dropped up to the nearest stereo store and ASKED. I sat on the FLOOR in the main room and did everything I needed to do. Cut? Strip? Heat Shrink? Terminate? Still in use, today and fine. And to leave a good impression, I cleaned up after myself. Down to EVERY strand (wear your glasses to see) of copper from the cuts......And took all my trash with me as I left. Boss was in the office watching Soccer on TV or some such.....
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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2024 10:07:14 GMT -5
Learning some things this morning - good and bad...
Bad = Resetting the AVR to defaults is complicated! I've found three instruction sets on the internet so far, none of which have worked. I've also discovered that my AVR is not an Arcam. It's an Anthem. Quality is supposed to be equivalent.
Good = The AVR (even through the cheapest model in the Anthem line) has preamp outputs for 7.1 operation. Therefore, if I'm not happy with the sound of the internal amps of the AVR, I can use external power amplifiers (that I've already got).
So I'm going to dig deeper into how to reset the AVR. If I'm not getting anywhere by this afternoon, the AVR isn't worth spending any more time with - I'm putting it on CraigsList and will consider whether I want to bother with another AVR or whether I should just stick with stereo...
Reset success - on my model Anthem, one MUST use the on-screen display and set the options for each input individually. I've got mine reset, and will listen seriously after lunch.
As to whether I want an AVR or a stereo rig, ultimately: I watch most movies from my recliner or laying down with my iPad on my chest. If I want better sound, it's headphone time! So if I end up wanting to replace my Anthem AVR for any reason, I'll probably just revert to 2-channel. Other than the better quality DAC that I'm still considering, I already have hardware in the closet for stereo listening.
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2024 13:30:41 GMT -5
For MOST listening? Stereo is more than fine. If you are moving about the house doing anything? You'll never notice 5.1 or any advanced format.....
I added a sub for the 'point one' and that's good with my restricted bass panels.......
For my nickel? Too many advantages over surround sound to even 'think' about making the switch......
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Post by brubacca on May 21, 2024 14:40:46 GMT -5
Call me a snob, but those $100 chinese dacs suck (well the one I tried).
I own the Modi Multibit 2 and like it. Although I use it as a nearfield monitor and headphone DAC. When I had it on my main system it was bested by other Dacs like the Schiit Gungnir and my NAIN Dac. I believe you owned the Jolida version of the Black Ice Dac and sold it on. I remember because I still wish I bought it from you when you sold it on. (Its been awhile so I may be wrong).
Since you are using this through an AV receiver I wouldn't go crazy. Probably do the Black Ice at most if you wanted to add that tube flavor or just get a used Emotiva Stealth DAC
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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2024 15:36:47 GMT -5
Hi brubacca - First, thanks for the feedback. I respect your opinions. IMHO the $100 Chinese DACs DO suck - their digital to analog conversion chips are fine (at least, Audio Science Review says so), but their analog output stages just don't do it for me. They sound like the AudioQuest Dragonfly Red that I'm using - lacking in dynamics. The AQ does sound better than the DACs in every computer I've heard, but that isn't saying much... I wish I had the Jolida tube DAC back again - it sounded really good. An audio amigo has the Black Ice tube DAC, and it's absolutely stunning! It turns out that audio amigo is a Black Ice dealer, so he might be willing to get me one of those wholesale... It's been a while since I've heard the Schiit Gungnir, and I've never heard the NAIM at all. I'm using an AVR at the moment (Anthem, not Arcam), but only because everything else is packed up. We DO plan on moving in the next year (although whether we'll achieve that goal or not is still a question). If wife isn't making progress toward our move by the beginning of next year, I'll assume that we're here for good. Should that be the case, I will revert to stereo and the AVR will be out. If I remember right, Roon has its own digital volume control if you want to use it (and it sounded pretty good, if I remember right!). So I wouldn't actually NEED for a DAC to also have a preamp built in. If I really wanted analog volume, I have a passive volume pot with remote control. I also have a tube preamp (no remote) that I can use as a buffer if I want tube sound. For that matter, I have an analog, line-level switcher (with remote control) that I could use to enable / disable the tube buffer. Cheers - Glenn PS: One other thing to consider would be a preamp or integrated with a built-in DAC - Yamaha? Emotiva?
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Post by leonski on May 21, 2024 17:12:36 GMT -5
Cambridge DACMagic + has a choice of VC or not.....as well as 3 reconstruction filters to drive you nuts....
Not that I'd recommend dealing with THAT particular company.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2024 19:13:58 GMT -5
I have absolutely had it with that effing AVR. After resetting the defaults, now ALL the input selections have defaulted to the various HDMI inputs, and I can't get it to switch back to TOSLINK or analog inputs despite reading the owners' manual and trying to change settings for the last HOUR! I'm through wasting time with the damned thing. It goes on Craigslist immediately.
Back to stereo for me and I'll NEVER buy another AVR - NEVER.
You'd think that any consumer product would come with good enough information that you could figure out how to use it, but no. I'm not dumb and I can read (carefully).
I went through EVERY input setting on the damned thing (twice) - NONE of them play music. The display claims that every input on the box is an HDMI input. Obviously it isn't broken because it worked before I reset it, but it just isn't worth my time to try to analyze it any further. I've got everything needed to set up the system as a stereo, totally without the Anthem in the signal path, so no further expense is required.
I bought the AVR used, and have learned my lesson: The more complicated any device is, the less prudent it is to buy used. That said, I've bought Yamaha AVRs at yard sales before, and was able to set them up and use them without even needing to refer to a manual. This Anthem brand is 10x more confusing (even WITH the manual).
I've reviewed AV gear from McIntosh, Marantz and others and NONE of it was as obtuse as this Anthem. I believe that (probably) one needs to use the Anthem on-screen display and to "map" every input button manually to its desired source. The default, as stupid as it seems, is to assign nothing but HDMI inputs to each and every possible input choice.
Anthem can KMA. I'm putting this on Craigslist NOW, and I'll NEVER buy another Anthem product.
Oh well... I DID try~~~
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,275
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Post by novisnick on May 21, 2024 22:38:33 GMT -5
Mrs and I use our Yamaha AVR without problem for years now. Does it sound as good as my dedicated Theater (RMC-1), no but its easy to set up and everything stays assigned the way I’ve set it up. Running two channel or theater on the Yamaha. 7.1 I’ve never entertained an Anthum and it sounds as though I never will.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 21, 2024 23:32:51 GMT -5
Yamaha IS high on my audition list.
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Post by leonski on May 22, 2024 1:32:50 GMT -5
Complicaated 'things' fail in complicated ways. And in some ways Not anticipated by the original builders.
As an 'out of this world' example? Look at Voyager 1 and Voyager 2. Now the furthest Human made objects.
Power is gradually being reduced as the 'generator' (actaully a thermopile) has less and less energy to deal
with. Voyager 1 was recently out of 'touch' for 5 months until the control people went thru near-50 year ols
documentation and figured out what was wrong....Voyager 2 has also had its share of issues, including stuff
like a mis-aimed antenna.
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Post by brubacca on May 22, 2024 6:47:06 GMT -5
The Naim is a different animal all together. Its agressive. Does rock and grunge really well.
The Gungnir is the opposite. Its a bit laid back, but put on some Norah Jones or James Taylor and marvel at the sound.
My main system is down as I switch rooms, but I may setup both when I get my rig set back up.
Good luck. Go for the Black Ice especially if you can get it at wholesale. Its probably a bit much to go into an AVR, but should scale well.
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