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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2024 6:58:15 GMT -5
For now the lineup is AudioQuest to power amps directly.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on May 22, 2024 7:34:18 GMT -5
I currently have a Denafrips Ares II dac that I purchased used from a friend who moved up in their lineup. Paid $500. I love this dac. It's smooth, not irritating in any way. It's well built.
I don't like that it is Chinese made. If I had to replace it, I would likely get something from Schiit.
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Post by oldwood on May 22, 2024 8:06:22 GMT -5
I have absolutely had it with that effing AVR. After resetting the defaults, now ALL the input selections have defaulted to the various HDMI inputs, and I can't get it to switch back to TOSLINK or analog inputs despite reading the owners' manual and trying to change settings for the last HOUR! I'm through wasting time with the damned thing. It goes on Craigslist immediately. Back to stereo for me, and I'll NEVER buy another AVR - NEVER. You'd think that any consumer product would come with good enough information that you could figure out how to use it, but no. I'm not dumb and I can read (carefully). I went through EVERY input setting on the damned thing (twice) - NONE of them play music. The display claims that every input on the box is an HDMI input. Obviously it isn't broken because it worked before I reset it, but it just isn't worth my time to try to analyze it any further. I've got everything needed to set up the system as a stereo, totally without the Anthem in the signal path, so no further expense is required. I bought the AVR used, and have learned my lesson: The more complicated any device is, the less prudent it is to buy used. That said, I've bought Yamaha AVRs at yard sales before, and was able to set them up and use them without even needing to refer to a manual. This Anthem brand is 10x more confusing (even WITH the manual). I've reviewed AV gear from McIntosh, Marantz and others and NONE of it was as obtuse as this Anthem. I believe that (probably) one needs to use the Anthem on-screen display and to "map" every input button manually to its desired source. The default, as stupid as it seems, is to assign nothing but HDMI inputs to each and every possible input choice. Anthem can KMA. I'm putting this on Craigslist NOW, and I'll NEVER buy another Anthem product. Oh well... I DID try~~~ I run an Anthem 510 AVR, you set the video and audio for each input as well as other settings through the inputs dialogue in the setup menu. You can also set different room correction readings for each input.
I don't know what model yours is, but this is a picture of the input settings on mine. I use an analogue input from my DAC for audio and the HDMI feed for audio for TV and movies.I use the Anthem as a preamp and I think the sound is better than the Marantz pre-pro I was running previously, and the room correction is much better. Give it another look it might be worth it. One more edit to say, on previous versions the input setting are under the source setup dialogue.
![](//storage.proboards.com/1381179/thumbnailer/eMmNXcFGzdHPBGCrBvBE.png) ![](//storage.proboards.com/1381179/thumbnailer/ymV0fJXAVrFhkBwubMKa.png) Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/1381179/thumbnailer/RluqrAfEJfCDLMMYfiju.png)
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 22, 2024 10:09:22 GMT -5
I would not call you a snob... but I think you're placing the blame in the wrong column. As I see it there are two issues... One is that different people want and expect different things from a DAC. The other is that manufacturers need some way to differentiate their products. I personally want a DAC to be "dead neutral"... So, in my opinion.... - if there were two "perfect" DACs, or a dozen of them, they would sound indistinguishable from each other (because "there is only one correct way to sound") - any, conversely, if two DACs sound different, that at least one of them must be wrong (or both could be wrong) However, as you may notice, this would pose several problems for several different people... - if all "good DACs" sounded exactly the same, then there would be no way for one to be better than another (you would literally be choosing the one whose knobs and trim, or features, you prefer) - if all "good DACs" sounded the same, and you DIDN'T like the way they sounded, you'd be sort of out of luck The bottom line is that it is within the abilities of MOST companies to design a reasonably priced DAC that sounds quite neutral. But, for various reasons, the MARKET wants to be able to choose between DACs that DON'T all sound the same. Therefore some DAC designers and manufacturers go out of the way to design their DACs to NOT "sound like every other DAC"... And, many, while they may not go quite that far, many simply don't place a very high priority on "making their DAC sound dead neutral" (like a lot of other DACs). However, to be quite blunt, I would not specifically attribute this to Chinese DAC manufacturers... The way DACs sound is simply "all over the map"... It would be a mistake to assume that "all Chinese DACs tend to sound the same"... In fact it would be a mistake to assume that all DACs made by the same company all sound the same... It's also a mistake to assume that the price tag will tell you much about how a DAC sounds. (Our EGO+ DACs, and some other low cost DACs, sound quite good to me... but I've owned a few DACs in the $1k range that didn't impress me nearly as much.) And, yes, here at Emotiva, even though we do our best to achieve a totally neutral sound, and our XDA-2 and DC-1 sounded really good, our new XDA-3 does sound slightly different... Call me a snob, but those $100 chinese dacs suck (well the one I tried). I own the Modi Multibit 2 and like it. Although I use it as a nearfield monitor and headphone DAC. When I had it on my main system it was bested by other Dacs like the Schiit Gungnir and my NAIN Dac. I believe you owned the Jolida version of the Black Ice Dac and sold it on. I remember because I still wish I bought it from you when you sold it on. (Its been awhile so I may be wrong). Since you are using this through an AV receiver I wouldn't go crazy. Probably do the Black Ice at most if you wanted to add that tube flavor or just get a used Emotiva Stealth DAC
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Post by marcl on May 22, 2024 11:51:39 GMT -5
I would not call you a snob... but I think you're placing the blame in the wrong column. As I see it there are two issues... One is that different people want and expect different things from a DAC. The other is that manufacturers need some way to differentiate their products. I personally want a DAC to be "dead neutral"... So, in my opinion.... - if there were two "perfect" DACs, or a dozen of them, they would sound indistinguishable from each other (because "there is only one correct way to sound") - any, conversely, if two DACs sound different, that at least one of them must be wrong (or both could be wrong) However, as you may notice, this would pose several problems for several different people... - if all "good DACs" sounded exactly the same, then there would be no way for one to be better than another (you would literally be choosing the one whose knobs and trim, or features, you prefer) - if all "good DACs" sounded the same, and you DIDN'T like the way they sounded, you'd be sort of out of luck The bottom line is that it is within the abilities of MOST companies to design a reasonably priced DAC that sounds quite neutral. But, for various reasons, the MARKET wants to be able to choose between DACs that DON'T all sound the same. Therefore some DAC designers and manufacturers go out of the way to design their DACs to NOT "sound like every other DAC"... And, many, while they may not go quite that far, many simply don't place a very high priority on "making their DAC sound dead neutral" (like a lot of other DACs). However, to be quite blunt, I would not specifically attribute this to Chinese DAC manufacturers... The way DACs sound is simply "all over the map"... It would be a mistake to assume that "all Chinese DACs tend to sound the same"... In fact it would be a mistake to assume that all DACs made by the same company all sound the same... It's also a mistake to assume that the price tag will tell you much about how a DAC sounds. (Our EGO+ DACs, and some other low cost DACs, sound quite good to me... but I've owned a few DACs in the $1k range that didn't impress me nearly as much.) And, yes, here at Emotiva, even though we do our best to achieve a totally neutral sound, and our XDA-2 and DC-1 sounded really good, our new XDA-3 does sound slightly different... Call me a snob, but those $100 chinese dacs suck (well the one I tried). I own the Modi Multibit 2 and like it. Although I use it as a nearfield monitor and headphone DAC. When I had it on my main system it was bested by other Dacs like the Schiit Gungnir and my NAIN Dac. I believe you owned the Jolida version of the Black Ice Dac and sold it on. I remember because I still wish I bought it from you when you sold it on. (Its been awhile so I may be wrong). Since you are using this through an AV receiver I wouldn't go crazy. Probably do the Black Ice at most if you wanted to add that tube flavor or just get a used Emotiva Stealth DAC Is it fair to say that in this era of excellent electronic components, if most companies can make a pretty good-sounding DAC that is relatively neutral ... then the best way to make an EXPENSIVE DAC is to make one that sounds a LITTLE DIFFERENT, but not BAD in any way (like boost the bass 2db) ... and then just double the price! Someone will like it, and want to pay more because that makes it better.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2024 12:16:09 GMT -5
Gents - May I suggest that we may be missing something (and an important something) when discussing DACs? A "DAC," as considered by consumers, is not a monolith. In fact, it's composed of at least two primary functions (and several ancillary ones). The primary functions are the actual digital-to-analog conversion and the analog output stage. Without these two, it wouldn't be considered a consumer product. But ancillary functions also exist - the clock - the optical to electrical interface for TOSLINK - the buffer for inputs - the power supply - the optional features (balanced circuitry? multiple digital inputs? the case? the remote control?) etc. These days, it seems that "average performance" for the actual DAC section is pretty uniformly high (and the price not very expensive). This is why $100 Chinese DACs measure so well. The tougher part, however, (and the more expensive) seems to be design and manufacture of a first-rate analog output stage. Not being a DAC designer myself, I'll await KeithL's comments on these speculations. But in my opinion, the best DACs sound more alike than different. The three best I think I've had in my system are the Auralic Vega, the Black Ice Fusion tube DAC, and the Emotiva Stealth. In a double-blind A/B/C test, I'm not sure I could tell them apart! So this leaves one to purchase on the basis of features and/or price. If I could find a $100 Chinese DAC that I thought the equal of any of these three, I'd be on it like white on rice. Boomzilla
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Post by brubacca on May 22, 2024 13:55:03 GMT -5
I would not call you a snob... but I think you're placing the blame in the wrong column. As I see it there are two issues... One is that different people want and expect different things from a DAC. The other is that manufacturers need some way to differentiate their products. I personally want a DAC to be "dead neutral"... So, in my opinion.... - if there were two "perfect" DACs, or a dozen of them, they would sound indistinguishable from each other (because "there is only one correct way to sound") - any, conversely, if two DACs sound different, that at least one of them must be wrong (or both could be wrong) However, as you may notice, this would pose several problems for several different people... - if all "good DACs" sounded exactly the same, then there would be no way for one to be better than another (you would literally be choosing the one whose knobs and trim, or features, you prefer) - if all "good DACs" sounded the same, and you DIDN'T like the way they sounded, you'd be sort of out of luck The bottom line is that it is within the abilities of MOST companies to design a reasonably priced DAC that sounds quite neutral. But, for various reasons, the MARKET wants to be able to choose between DACs that DON'T all sound the same. Therefore some DAC designers and manufacturers go out of the way to design their DACs to NOT "sound like every other DAC"... And, many, while they may not go quite that far, many simply don't place a very high priority on "making their DAC sound dead neutral" (like a lot of other DACs). However, to be quite blunt, I would not specifically attribute this to Chinese DAC manufacturers... The way DACs sound is simply "all over the map"... It would be a mistake to assume that "all Chinese DACs tend to sound the same"... In fact it would be a mistake to assume that all DACs made by the same company all sound the same... It's also a mistake to assume that the price tag will tell you much about how a DAC sounds. (Our EGO+ DACs, and some other low cost DACs, sound quite good to me... but I've owned a few DACs in the $1k range that didn't impress me nearly as much.) And, yes, here at Emotiva, even though we do our best to achieve a totally neutral sound, and our XDA-2 and DC-1 sounded really good, our new XDA-3 does sound slightly different... Call me a snob, but those $100 chinese dacs suck (well the one I tried). I own the Modi Multibit 2 and like it. Although I use it as a nearfield monitor and headphone DAC. When I had it on my main system it was bested by other Dacs like the Schiit Gungnir and my NAIN Dac. I believe you owned the Jolida version of the Black Ice Dac and sold it on. I remember because I still wish I bought it from you when you sold it on. (Its been awhile so I may be wrong). Since you are using this through an AV receiver I wouldn't go crazy. Probably do the Black Ice at most if you wanted to add that tube flavor or just get a used Emotiva Stealth DAC Ironically enough my first DAC was the XDA-1 when it was first released. Part of me wishes I still had it to compare to where I am now in my journey. I found out pretty quickly that I did like flavor and not just neutral. Although I also found out later that a really good source does make a huge difference.
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Post by brubacca on May 22, 2024 14:07:33 GMT -5
Gents - May I suggest that we may be missing something (and an important something) when discussing DACs? A "DAC," as considered by consumers, is not a monolith. In fact, it's composed of at least two primary functions (and several ancillary ones). The primary functions are the actual digital-to-analog conversion and the analog output stage. Without these two, it wouldn't be considered a consumer product. But ancillary functions also exist - the clock - the optical to electrical interface for TOSLINK - the buffer for inputs - the power supply - the optional features (balanced circuitry? multiple digital inputs? the case? the remote control?) etc. These days, it seems that "average performance" for the actual DAC section is pretty uniformly high (and the price not very expensive). This is why $100 Chinese DACs measure so well. The tougher part, however, (and the more expensive) seems to be design and manufacture of a first-rate analog output stage. Not being a DAC designer myself, I'll await KeithL's comments on these speculations. But in my opinion, the best DACs sound more alike than different. The three best I think I've had in my system are the Auralic Vega, the Black Ice Fusion tube DAC, and the Emotiva Stealth. In a double-blind A/B/C test, I'm not sure I could tell them apart! So this leaves one to purchase on the basis of features and/or price. If I could find a $100 Chinese DAC that I thought the equal of any of these three, I'd be on it like white on rice. Boomzilla Agreed. It’s the whole package including power supply, electrical and digital filtering. That is why DACs with the same chips do not necessarily sound the same. To me the Black Ice is intriguing because it has tubes and should have a bit of that harmonic that makes tubes fun to listen too. Plus you should be able to taylor the sound a bit with tubes which is acceptable instead of cables which many frown on.
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Post by fbczar on May 22, 2024 14:13:48 GMT -5
I currently have a Denafrips Ares II dac that I purchased used from a friend who moved up in their lineup. Paid $500. I love this dac. It's smooth, not irritating in any way. It's well built. I don't like that it is Chinese made. If I had to replace it, I would likely get something from Schiit. I own a circa 1994 Theta Gen. 5A DAC designed by Mike Moffat of Schiit. I understand the Yggdrasil is essentially the modern version of the Theta. I have compared the Theta to the DAC in my XMC-2 and while both are neutral, the Theta provides a much faster sense of attack with low frequencies and is slightly more “grand” in general. The Yggdrasil must be exceptional.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 22, 2024 15:12:45 GMT -5
First let me say that I think we have different ideas about our goals. To me the goal of an analog stage, whether a preamp, a power amp, or the analog stage in another component, is to be "a straight wire with gain". It should make the signal "bigger" without altering the way it sounds in any way. Therefore, to me, "the best sonic signature is no sonic signature". And, yes, that means that, if there were such a thing as two or more perfect components, then by definition they would sound identical. (And, if two components sound audibly different then one or both of them must be to some degree incorrect.) And, when it comes to DACs, my goal is "a black box where digital goes in and the equivalent analog comes out". And, again, there is only one absolutely right, and an infinite number of possible wrongs. So, to me, for example, if you can tell whether a DAC has tubes in it or not, then it is flawed... because that means that it has a non-neutral sonic signature. (And, if you had a perfect solid state D-S DAC, and a perfect R2R tube DAC, both being perfect, they would sound exactly the same.) So, yes, I'm taking your statement about DACs even further... The best DACs should sound so close to the same that it should be difficult to tell them apart... Now, all the disclaimers out of the way, yes... There are a lot of things that affect the way a DAC (the audio component) sounds beyond the brand and type of DAC chip used... You have the digital input circuitry... which affects things like jitter... You have the power supplies... and there are several different power supplies involved in a DAC... You have the clock circuitry... And you have the analog circuitry... And, on top of the DAC chip itself, most DAC chips actually have several design choices, including things like oversampling modes and reconstruction filter options. (Virtually all DAC chips support multiple oversampling filters; if you aren't offered the choice then the designers have chosen for you.) And some DACs include other types of processing as well... And, if you have a non-oversampling DAC, then you have a whole bunch of different variables to do with the filtering. And ALL of these things, individually or in combination, can at least potentially affect how a DAC sounds. It's also worth point out that the relationships between many of these parts are not always consistent and linear. For example there are several factors that could contribute to the overall amount and type of jitter... And, in some contexts, the worse of several things will "set a limit on how good the jitter performance can be"... And, in many areas, "if the audio signal is messed up in one place you cannot fix it somewhere else - no matter how good your circuitry is in the other place". And the reason I brought up our differing goals is that they too affect the overall picture. With my goal of perfect neutrality we can reasonably expect all well-designed DACs to converge on the same "absolutely neutral" sound. But, if that ISN'T your goal, then there are a near-infinite number of combinations and permutations of things that can make DACs sound different. The other place where we may disagree is in my overall impression of analog stages. Features like tone controls, and room correction, and bass management, all make the situation much more complicated... However, a SIMPLE analog stage, that provides nothing but gain, and perhaps a volume control, is NOT difficult to design. You can make a simple gain stage, with a gain of 10x, without a volume control, with about $5 worth of parts, that is for all intents and purposes perfect... And, if there is a tiny difference distinguishable between two such designs, they will be close enough that there will be no practical way to determine "which is right". Therefore, if there is a significant audible difference in such gain stages, then either someone is a really poor designer, or they were made or allowed to sound different intentionally... (It just isn't that difficult to design a simple gain stage that is audibly perfect and neutral... IF THAT IS YOUR GOAL.) And, while I've never personally heard the Auralic Vega or the Black Ice Fusion DAC... I absolutely agree that our old DC-1 was a very nice, and very neutral, sounding DAC... Gents - May I suggest that we may be missing something (and an important something) when discussing DACs? A "DAC," as considered by consumers, is not a monolith. In fact, it's composed of at least two primary functions (and several ancillary ones). The primary functions are the actual digital-to-analog conversion and the analog output stage. Without these two, it wouldn't be considered a consumer product. But ancillary functions also exist - the clock - the optical to electrical interface for TOSLINK - the buffer for inputs - the power supply - the optional features (balanced circuitry? multiple digital inputs? the case? the remote control?) etc. These days, it seems that "average performance" for the actual DAC section is pretty uniformly high (and the price not very expensive). This is why $100 Chinese DACs measure so well. The tougher part, however, (and the more expensive) seems to be design and manufacture of a first-rate analog output stage. Not being a DAC designer myself, I'll await KeithL 's comments on these speculations. But in my opinion, the best DACs sound more alike than different. The three best I think I've had in my system are the Auralic Vega, the Black Ice Fusion tube DAC, and the Emotiva Stealth. In a double-blind A/B/C test, I'm not sure I could tell them apart! So this leaves one to purchase on the basis of features and/or price. If I could find a $100 Chinese DAC that I thought the equal of any of these three, I'd be on it like white on rice. Boomzilla
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2024 15:16:28 GMT -5
garbulky has always encouraged me to try a Yggy (maybe so I can loan it to him to try out... LOL). I've resisted because it's (to me, or more accurately to my wife) "expensive." OTOH, if I tell her that garbulky recommends it, she might go along - we both have respect and affection for him.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2024 15:22:16 GMT -5
...The other place where we may disagree is in my overall impression of analog stages. Features like tone controls, and room correction, and bass management, all make the situation much more complicated... However, a SIMPLE analog stage, that provides nothing but gain, and perhaps a volume control, is NOT difficult to design. You can make a simple gain stage, with a gain of 10x, without a volume control, with about $5 worth of parts, that is for all intents and purposes perfect... In theory, I agree with you. In practice, however... hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/audio-gd-he-1-stereo-preamplifier-review/You pays your money, you takes your choice.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 22, 2024 15:27:30 GMT -5
Very well phrased... I would add one thing however: You've made up a pretty good DAC that sounds a little different than the others... And you've set a new and appropriately higher price... Now you need to craft a story to convince people why the way yours sounds is right and the others are wrong... This is a major part of the process when it comes to selling things like DACs... (Everybody knows they all sound a little different... but most people really aren't sure which one is right.) If you don't set those expectations properly, you risk too many people not "figuring out" that "yours is the one that sounds better"... This usually involves some highly technical explanation about why people should expect yours to be the one that sounds better... Either it does something great the others don't; or it avoids doing something awful that all the others seem to find necessary. (Maybe it has transformers, or custom FPGAs, or it doesn't have a reconstruction filter, or doesn't oversample.) ...................................... Is it fair to say that in this era of excellent electronic components, if most companies can make a pretty good-sounding DAC that is relatively neutral ... then the best way to make an EXPENSIVE DAC is to make one that sounds a LITTLE DIFFERENT, but not BAD in any way (like boost the bass 2db) ... and then just double the price! Someone will like it, and want to pay more because that makes it better.
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Post by brubacca on May 22, 2024 15:55:41 GMT -5
To me I really don’t “care” about the DAC. Keith - I respect your comment that you want as close to straight wire with gain. An engineer wants it to measure well. I get all those things.
I learned after having multiple amps, integrated amps, receiver and several different DACs that I just want to enjoy listening to music. I don’t care how I get there. DACs I remember owning: Emotiva XDA-1 Meridian Explorer Topping D10S Rega DAC Schiit Gungnir Multibit Naim DAC Schiit Modi Multibit Schiit Hel Arcam AVR 390 Naim Unitiqute Pioneer receiver iFi Neo iDSD Squeezebox Touch
I don’t really care about the names on my gear, or the price (only that I can afford it).
I just want to enjoy listening to music.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 22, 2024 16:11:00 GMT -5
Interesting... but I'm not seeing any disagreement there... The author of the article was quite clear that THE PREAMP ALTERS THE SOUND IN A WAY THAT HE FINDS PLEASING. To quote him: "The Audio-gd HE-1 is one of those preamplifiers that has its own characteristic sound. This will disqualify it immediately for the purists who demand absolute fidelity to the source material." However, this is FAR from "a SIMPLE analog stage, that provides nothing but gain". In fact it is pretty much the opposite... They have piled complication upon complication into the circuitry of what started out as a simple preamp. And, to be quite honest, some of their "advanced features" seemed to me to be about as useful as solid gold bathroom faucets... And the end result was "something that isn't neutral but that some people think sounds very good"... (Which is cool... for people who aren't especially concerned with accuracy.) But, like the reviewer said, I'm one of those purists who would consider "obvious but pleasant coloration" to be "a deal breaker". Interestingly, as it turns out, I am quite familiar with Audio G*D (I've owned several of their DACs in the past). All were nicely built, reasonably priced, and worked pretty well... And every single one of them sounded very different from every other... And, on at least one or two of them, I could have chosen from two different USB options, and three different brands of op-amps... All of which they said would also change the way they sounded (and I have no reason to doubt their claim). Now... let me explain the big PHILOSOPHICAL problem I have with devices like this... It might actually make some poor quality recordings sound better... But I don't think it can possibly do so without also compromising the quality of some good quality recordings... And probably making some recordings sound, not better or worse, but simply different... And I don't want a component in my system that is going to alter the way everything sounds. I would much rather use software to fix only the music that I want to fix... It gives me more options, and more control, and the ability to apply different fixes to different content... But, more importantly, it gives me the option of only fixing the stuff that needs fixing. (And I can even save an unfixed copy so, when I want to, I can hear what the original actually sounded like.) I should add, as an interesting side note, that I once owned a pair of speakers that I would describe similarly... They made a lot of really poor sounding content sound a lot less bad... Although they did limit how good a really good sounding source could sound... And they had the absolute "widest and most holographic" sound stage I have ever heard on a speaker... They were Spica Angelus (I have no idea what the plural would be)... And they were also one of the coolest looking speakers I have ever seen... (Although, to be fair, they didn't play very low, or very high, or very loud.) ...The other place where we may disagree is in my overall impression of analog stages. Features like tone controls, and room correction, and bass management, all make the situation much more complicated... However, a SIMPLE analog stage, that provides nothing but gain, and perhaps a volume control, is NOT difficult to design. You can make a simple gain stage, with a gain of 10x, without a volume control, with about $5 worth of parts, that is for all intents and purposes perfect... In theory, I agree with you. In practice, however... hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/audio-gd-he-1-stereo-preamplifier-review/You pays your money, you takes your choice.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 22, 2024 21:01:02 GMT -5
Help!
A mystery ground loop I’ve got.. Dramatis Personae:
* SOURCE - Windows 10 NUC connected to - 19VDC wall wart / Ethernet (also connected to Samsung TV connected to Cox Cable system + Yamaha disc player + Ethernet switch + Cox cable modem + two Mac mini computers) / AudioQuest Dragonfly USB DAC
* DESTINATION - Emotiva PA-1 power amplifiers
* THE PROBLEM - The left channel has a loud hum, probably indicating a ground loop; the right channel has none. I can’t imagine why since both channels seem to have identical connections.
* PROPOSED TROUBLESHOOTING:
1. Switch the R & L interconnects between the DAC & amps - if the hum switches channels, the problem is upstream of the amps. If the hum remains on the left channel, the amplifier may be bad.
2. Disconnect Ethernet connections between the switch and the TV. The NUC MUST be connected to the Ethernet to communicate with my NAS and the internet.
3. Replace the current (unbalanced) interconnects between the DAC and the amplifiers with unbalanced to balanced jumpers (will a balanced connection at the destination alone reduce noise?)
4. Replace the DAC with another that has balanced outputs - then use balanced interconnects only.
5. When the new DAC is chosen, make sure it has an optical TOSLINK input, then use my USB-A to optical TOSLINK converter cable to achieve galvanic isolation between the NUC and the DAC.
6. Throw my hands in the air, step back, and go “Whoa!!!”
Suggestions?
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Post by Boomzilla on May 23, 2024 8:14:18 GMT -5
And on a related note:
Am I just "snakebit?" It sure seems to me that I have not just more than most but rather way more than most amounts of trouble with my sound system.
Of course, it isn't a fair comparison - most buy a AVR or integrated amp and never change anything (EVER) unless it breaks. But I'm constantly changing equipment because of new review items arriving (and because I periodically get bored with the system & want to change something around).
But despite the continuous churn in my system, the typical failure is "it was working fine yesterday, but suddenly there's this mysterious problem..." And seemingly none of my problems are simple or obvious. Every problem seems to cost a day or more to diagnose and fix.
My wife has the touch of death for electronic equipment. Things that work fine for me absolutely refuse to work for her. Maybe her "teleklutsis" is contagious? So I ask again, "is it just me?"
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 23, 2024 9:07:43 GMT -5
As you noted... a hum on only one channel is unusual with a ground loop. I would seriously look at things like the interconnects themselves. After that switching the channels at various points is the next step. And, of course, the FIRST thing to do, when you have a NEW problem, is to look at what has CHANGED from before you had the problem. That includes both your audio equipment and connections - and pretty much everything else. I recall a "mystery case" where a hum appeared in the audio system after a new burglar alarm was installed. Apparently, when the guys installed the alarm, they used the same ground rod connection as the incoming cable service. And, when they did so, they failed to re-tighten the ground clamp properly afterwards. And this caused the cable box to inject hum into the audio system through its HDMI connection to the AVR. Help! A mystery ground loop I’ve got.. Dramatis Personae: * SOURCE - Windows 10 NUC connected to - 19VDC wall wart / Ethernet (also connected to Samsung TV connected to Cox Cable system + Yamaha disc player + Ethernet switch + Cox cable modem + two Mac mini computers) / AudioQuest Dragonfly USB DAC * DESTINATION - Emotiva PA-1 power amplifiers * THE PROBLEM - The left channel has a loud hum, probably indicating a ground loop; the right channel has none. I can’t imagine why since both channels seem to have identical connections. * PROPOSED TROUBLESHOOTING: 1. Switch the R & L interconnects between the DAC & amps - if the hum switches channels, the problem is upstream of the amps. If the hum remains on the left channel, the amplifier may be bad. 2. Disconnect Ethernet connections between the switch and the TV. The NUC MUST be connected to the Ethernet to communicate with my NAS and the internet. 3. Replace the current (unbalanced) interconnects between the DAC and the amplifiers with unbalanced to balanced jumpers (will a balanced connection at the destination alone reduce noise?) 4. Replace the DAC with another that has balanced outputs - then use balanced interconnects only. 5. When the new DAC is chosen, make sure it has an optical TOSLINK input, then use my USB-A to optical TOSLINK converter cable to achieve galvanic isolation between the NUC and the DAC. 6. Throw my hands in the air, step back, and go “Whoa!!!” Suggestions?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 23, 2024 9:31:27 GMT -5
I do have one comment on what you said there... I don't disagree that "as an engineer I want things that measure well". HOWEVER, particularly when it comes to DACs, and the current "state of the art", I have to say that I find specifications to be INADEQUATE. I am a firm believer that "anything that can be heard can be measured". However, when it comes to DACs, there are a lot of things that are rarely if ever actually measured... It's also true that a lot of the things we can measure are so complex that we currently do not understand exactly how they correlate with reality... (For example, we talk about "more or less jitter", but there is a lot more to the subject than that which can affect how audible it is.) (And good luck understanding how a DAC will sound by looking at those oscilloscope traces of impulse response.) Therefore, when it comes to DACs, the specifications you are likely to have access to rarely if ever tell you everything there is to know about how a DAC sounds. (And, just to be clear, even if you had the results of every measurement possible, there would still be an inability to completely interpret those measurements.) What I wanted to add, however, was that, at least for me, it is also a matter of philosophy... Yes, as an engineer, I derive some pleasure from "just knowing that a device has exemplary performance"... HOWEVER, at a very different level, I also prefer to have the option of "experiencing the original". I may choose to make a correction to a serious flaw in an audio recording... But I still want my equipment to offer me the option of hearing it accurately... (I'm not going to be happy with "trust me; I made it sound better for you".) It's NOT a matter of "the numbers"; it's a matter of "hearing it the way it was intended"... So, in the context of this discussion, it's probably a good starting point to have a preamp that "measures very close to a straight wire with gain"... But I consider it far more important that it DOES NOT alter the signal in any AUDIBLE way... I may be a bit dubious that something with lousy numbers will sound exactly the same; but, if it does, then I'm fine with it. But, if something sounds different, then, no matter how good the numbers are, I'm NOT going to be fine with it. And, in the context of something like a preamp, I'm also fine with all sorts of "processing" and "special effects" that can potentially improve bad recordings. But I will INSIST that there is an option to bypass all the tampering and hear what the original actually sounds like... accurately. (This serves two purposes. The first is that I may prefer the original. The second is that it enables me to COMPARE the altered and unaltered versions.) I'm going to ramble on a little bit and explain WHY I consider this to be so important... There's something that most of us who do a significant amount of audio editing or image editing have experienced... You start with an original; and you make a minor adjustment; then you make another adjustment; then you adjust the adjustment... And, at some point, you look at the result, and decide that "it's quite pleasing"... But SOMETIMES, when you look back at or listen to the original, you discover that your perspective has "drifted"... Not only is your final product very different than the original, or what you had envisioned, but it has LOST something important in the process... That's why I would never "trust" a DAC or preamp that "makes things sound different in a pleasing way" unless I had the option of bypassing that "improvement" if I choose to... To me I really don’t “care” about the DAC. Keith - I respect your comment that you want as close to straight wire with gain. An engineer wants it to measure well. I get all those things. I learned after having multiple amps, integrated amps, receiver and several different DACs that I just want to enjoy listening to music. I don’t care how I get there. DACs I remember owning: Emotiva XDA-1 Meridian Explorer Topping D10S Rega DAC Schiit Gungnir Multibit Naim DAC Schiit Modi Multibit Schiit Hel Arcam AVR 390 Naim Unitiqute Pioneer receiver iFi Neo iDSD Squeezebox Touch I don’t really care about the names on my gear, or the price (only that I can afford it). I just want to enjoy listening to music.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 23, 2024 9:55:26 GMT -5
...I am a firm believer that "anything that can be heard can be measured". We can agree to disagree... ...Therefore, when it comes to DACs, the specifications you are likely to have access to rarely if ever tell you everything there is to know about how a DAC sounds. We agree that LISTENING is the ultimate test - not measurements. it's probably a good starting point to have a preamp that "measures very close to a straight wire with gain"... You've shifted gears on us here, KeithL - We were talking about DACs, now we're on preamps? ...That's why I would never "trust" a DAC or preamp that "makes things sound different in a pleasing way" unless I had the option of bypassing that "improvement" if I choose to... OK - back to DACs again? What DAC have you ever heard of that offered bypassable "improvements?" On a preamp, maybe, but DACs are usually "plug and play" devices whose sound (excepting the possible choice of filters) offers no option of "bypassing improvements." Which filter is the "real" sound? You can choose the one you THINK sounds most real or sounds best, but you've no way of knowing which is the most accurate to the original recording.
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