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Post by geebo on Feb 16, 2014 21:37:42 GMT -5
I second tchaik's comments on sound. I was blown away at Emofest. Features or not...this thing sounds great! Mark Make that a third. It was an impressive demo. |
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Post by pedrocols on Feb 17, 2014 14:18:32 GMT -5
I second tchaik's comments on sound. I was blown away at Emofest. Features or not...this thing sounds great! Mark Make that a third. It was an impressive demo. I went to Best Buy yesterday and I was blown away after listening to the Bose Lifestyle System.....  |
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Post by geebo on Feb 17, 2014 14:20:00 GMT -5
Make that a third. It was an impressive demo. I went to Best Buy yesterday and I was blown away after listening to the Bose Lifestyle System..... Really?  |
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Post by pedrocols on Feb 17, 2014 23:24:59 GMT -5
I went to Best Buy yesterday and I was blown away after listening to the Bose Lifestyle System..... Really? Well I was not at Emofest so I have to take your word for it and you were not with me at Best Buy so I guess you have to take my word for it as well...  |
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Post by geebo on Feb 17, 2014 23:29:02 GMT -5
Really? Well I was not at Emofest so I have to take your word for it and you were not with me at Best Buy so I guess you have to take my word for it as well... Okay...fair enough.  |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 19, 2014 16:26:26 GMT -5
Hey there are some good sounding Bose goodies. But when it comes to the big sound overall. Bose goes home where Emotiva goes big! Physics folks. I love the Sound link mini. But it will never replace a great sounding tradtional system. Same holds true for any Bose product. They sound good until you push 'em! With separate power amps and big speakers well matched. It is a big difference!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 4:21:49 GMT -5
Since the Fusion 8100 is mostly competing against 7 channel AVR's that list 8 ohms power into 7 channels I thought I would see what I could find out there. Power into 7 and 2 channels operating simultaneously into 8 ohms at 0.1%. All of these AVR's were tested in the last 1-4 yrs by S&V Mag. Power with all 7 channels operating into 8 ohms and 2 channels operating into 8 ohms, at 0.1%Denon AVR 4810CI, $3000 list ----- 36.0 watts/7ch ----- not tested Marantz SR7008, $2000 list ------- 68.8 watts/7ch ----- 122.5 watts/2ch Arcam AVR750, $6000 list --------- 86.1 watts/7ch ----- 132 watts/2ch Anthem MRX 700, $2000 list ------ 43.9 watts/7ch ----- not tested Emo Fusion 8100, $699 list --------- 63.6 watts/7ch/@ 0.052% ----- 112.82 watts/2ch/@ 0.073% (note that the Emo test is well below 0.1%)  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 24, 2014 6:33:30 GMT -5
And even I'm tempted by the Fusion. Really? Yeah, really.
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Post by TempTag on Feb 25, 2014 1:16:57 GMT -5
I have run the Sherbourn 8100 (which is about the same as a Fusion) in stereo and surround and have been quite happy with the sound. It's basically a UMC200 with an amp and (thankfully!) a volume knob. That said, I am really tempted to get the Fusion just for the preouts upgrade. My mains are powered which would leave me to buy a single mono amp for my center channel and run internal power for the surround speakers.
My only hesitation is I am already short of HDMI connectors - 1 or 2 more HDMIs on the Fusion and I would have ordered already.
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Post by Topend on Feb 25, 2014 7:20:05 GMT -5
I too am thinking about the Fusion. I am in the process of moving my gear to the new HT room but want to keep a HT system in the family room. My plan was to keep the UMC-1 in the family room and bring it down from 7.1 to 5.1. I would then get the XMC-1 for the HT room.
This plan would involve buying more amps. If I get the Fusion I would not need new amps and could make do with the UMC-1 in the HT room.
Dave.
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 27, 2014 20:06:32 GMT -5
...Emo Fusion 8100, $699 list --------- 63.6 watts/7ch/@ 0.052% ----- 112.82 watts/2ch/@ 0.073% (note that the Emo test is well below 0.1%)... Perhaps, but if you look at the specs quoted on the web site it omits an important part of the frequency (or frequency range) at which the power measurements were made. This has long been a requirement from the FTC and I'm somewhat surprised not to see that shown. However, if you look at the AP measurement results posted on the Emo site you see that the power was measured at only at 1kHz. This is somewhat out of place for a product at this price. Does anyone have the power output ratings at 20Hz-20kHz, which is more or less the standard for this sort of thing unless you are looking at a lower priced product? This is somewhat un-Emo like! |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2014 0:21:50 GMT -5
...Emo Fusion 8100, $699 list --------- 63.6 watts/7ch/@ 0.052% ----- 112.82 watts/2ch/@ 0.073% (note that the Emo test is well below 0.1%)... Perhaps, but if you look at the specs quoted on the web site it omits an important part of the frequency (or frequency range) at which the power measurements were made. This has long been a requirement from the FTC and I'm somewhat surprised not to see that shown. However, if you look at the AP measurement results posted on the Emo site you see that the power was measured at only at 1kHz. This is somewhat out of place for a product at this price. Does anyone have the power output ratings at 20Hz-20kHz, which is more or less the standard for this sort of thing unless you are looking at a lower priced product? This is somewhat un-Emo like! Well actually it's not out of standard at all for AVR's. Heck they'll measure 1khz 1 channel driven only at 1% THD and give you that!  But I agree it is a little un-emo like at least the way they used to do it back then. |
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Post by entilzha on Feb 28, 2014 0:33:24 GMT -5
One thing that this unit has that most other receivers are neglecting now is full analog inputs. This would make the ultimate computer speaker receiver hooked up to a computer with a good surround audio card. Also, as previously said, it would be great for smaller environments, and handily beat most cheap receivers for all-channels power output. The preamp outputs are the icing on the cake for future expansion.
I'd love to have one if it weren't for my Outlaw 1070, which I bought specifically because it had full analog inputs for my computer and analog bass management. Too bad the darn thing is broken and I need to send it to Outlaw for repair.
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 28, 2014 0:40:58 GMT -5
For cheaper AVRs, sure. But, for example, EVERY Denon model over $499 has 20Hz -20kHz power ratings and I suspect you'll find the same for the Marantz, Arcam and Anthem products listed by Chuckienut. If you are comparing the 8100 to similarly priced products, let alone those with higher products you need to do apples to apples. That's why I wonder what the full bandwidth power rating of the Fusion 8100 really is. One has to think that if the ratings were good Emo would have shown them. Until someone tests or they post we simply do not know. To make the comparison against other units tested by S&V we'd need to see S&V test this under the same conditions. Considering that the referenced AVRs have higher advertised power but reported lower, one has to presume that the same would be the case for the 8100. Again, hard to tell unless someone other than Emo tests it.
On a separate issue, does anyone know if the load-in process for software/firmware updates is "plug and load" directly from a USB stick, as is common today with any AVR at $699 or is it the same "connect to your computer via USB" with the admittedly problematic loader used in the UMC. The appeal of the slider EQ is interesting compared to other AVRs, but without comparable power rating information and a modern way to update the software it is a stretch to justify an AVR with only 4 HDMI inputs and one output at that price. Same for the lack of Airplay, though it does have BT as some other similarly priced units have, lack of some flavor of internet radio, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 1:02:51 GMT -5
2muchht,
Yes, I go way back to the time that specs were like: 50 watts continuous per channel into 8 ohms, both channels operating, from 20Hz-20kHz, at less than 0.05 % THD + N, etc. High quality amps usually gave power into 4 ohms also and many other varied specs.
Unfortunately, even many of the high quality brands of power amps and receivers especially have now gone to using 1kHz, one or two channels only even on 5 or 7 channel amps and many never mention 4 ohms and occasionally mention 6 ohms. Even the test measurements in magazines and online review websites have resorted to using 1kHz at 0.1% and even test at 1.0% which they consider clipping.
In this case I compared the Fusion AP figures which were actually below 0.1% to AVR's that were tested at 0.1% and 1kHz. It was only fair IMO to use similar measurements to indicate relative power measurements in my posts. "This is somewhat out of place for a product at this price." I have to disagree somewhat since although some brands in their printed specs might use the 20-20k range, you will see in published review power measurements that most of their power specs are clearly exaggerated. This applies to many very high priced AVR's and various amps.
For example, I just went to the Marantz site and looked at the specs for the SR7008 AVR. It shows:
125W (0.08% @ 8 Ohm), 165W (0.7% @ 6 Ohm)
Only if you bother to actually download the spec sheet at the site will you finds that they add "20 Hz – 20 kHz." Notice that nowhere does it mention, but that is with all 9 channels operating, or 7 channels or even 5 channels. I agree that I would like to theoretically see Emo list the full power spec from 20Hz-20kHz. However, are just too many uneducated buyers out there who simply look at the ad or brochure for the SR7008 where it says :
Rated at 125 watts into 8 ohms for each of the 9 channels, the SR7008 provides high power and wide dynamic range, and all 9 power amplifier channels feature discrete high current power output devices for compatibility with the widest range of speakers, including lower impedance models.
How many actually understand that is not with all channels operating as Emo specifies with their power amps that are all (except for one) under the $2000 price of the Marantz SR7008. My intention here is in no way meant to be negative about this Marantz product but to use the comparison that the Fusion 8100 for $700 compares very favorably in power output to AVR's costing about 3 to 8,5 times the cost of the 8100. You will find very few if any AVR's under $700 compare to the extrapolated power of the Fusion 8100/7 ch @0.10% (I'm guessing 70 watts). I did a check of a number of AVR's at 0.10%/7ch and several were close but three were in the 20-30 watts range.
"This is somewhat out of place for a product at this price." Respectfully, I don't agree.
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 28, 2014 1:19:21 GMT -5
Let's agree that we disagree here.
Using "extrapolated" ratings isn't the same as hard, tested results. The easiest way to resolve this would be for Emo to run the AP tests for 20-20k and post them just as they have for the 1kHz results. Even better, it would be interesting to see if they could get S&V to do a review and run the unit under the same test regime as for the higher-priced spreads so that we have a common ground for comparison. Until we have either or both of those BOTH you and I are speculating.
I'm sure the Fusion 8100 is a decent piece, but for the price it isn't half as much the power, but the lack of HDMI inputs and other features that put it at a disadvantage to Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, HK, NAD and even the $499 Sony AVRs. At the end of the day this, like much in this hobby, becomes a matter of personal choice and taste along with meeting the buyers' individual requirements for things such a amplifier power, DAC quality, EQ system, connectivity and streaming services (again, there is the lack of DLNA and internet radio here that is a major miss at the price point), ease of use, upgradeability, and much more.
What's right for you might not be right for me or the next guy. That's what makes it a ballgame.
I hope Emo can help here by posting 20-20K test results and then we'll be better able to do comparisons.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 1:24:26 GMT -5
For cheaper AVRs, sure. But, for example, EVERY Denon model over $499 has 20Hz -20kHz power ratings and I suspect you'll find the same for the Marantz, Arcam and Anthem products listed by Chuckienut. If you are comparing the 8100 to similarly priced products, let alone those with higher products you need to do apples to apples. That's why I wonder what the full bandwidth power rating of the Fusion 8100 really is. One has to think that if the ratings were good Emo would have shown them. Until someone tests or they post we simply do not know. To make the comparison against other units tested by S&V we'd need to see S&V test this under the same conditions. Considering that the referenced AVRs have higher advertised power but reported lower, one has to presume that the same would be the case for the 8100. Again, hard to tell unless someone other than Emo tests it. On a separate issue, does anyone know if the load-in process for software/firmware updates is "plug and load" directly from a USB stick, as is common today with any AVR at $699 or is it the same "connect to your computer via USB" with the admittedly problematic loader used in the UMC. The appeal of the slider EQ is interesting compared to other AVRs, but without comparable power rating information and a modern way to update the software it is a stretch to justify an AVR with only 4 HDMI inputs and one output at that price. Same for the lack of Airplay, though it does have BT as some other similarly priced units have, lack of some flavor of internet radio, etc. You seem to have a problem distinguishing between specified and actual tested power. It doesn't make any diff what the manufacturer puts in their ads, the measurement results were at 1kHz and 0.1%. Your condescendingly implied remarks about the Emo tests using the AP machine possibly being unreliable or in some way not up to the testing standards of S&V mag is unfounded. If I remember correctly Emo, this is a machine somewhere in the $40,000 range. Maybe Lonnie can check in here and explain. I think you will in fact find that the tests of Emo amps tested and published have given power measurements very close to the Emo AP results. www.ap.com/solutions/poweramplifierswww.ap.com/news/reviewswww.audioholics.com/audio-measurement-equipment/audio-precisionGuess who else uses AP to test, their name rhymes with pedophile! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 1:31:06 GMT -5
Let's agree that we disagree here. Using "extrapolated" ratings isn't the same as hard, tested results. The easiest way to resolve this would be for Emo to run the AP tests for 20-20k and post them just as they have for the 1kHz results. Even better, it would be interesting to see if they could get S&V to do a review and run the unit under the same test regime as for the higher-priced spreads so that we have a common ground for comparison. Until we have either or both of those BOTH you and I are speculating. I'm sure the Fusion 8100 is a decent piece, but for the price it isn't half as much the power, but the lack of HDMI inputs and other features that put it at a disadvantage to Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, HK, NAD and even the $499 Sony AVRs. At the end of the day this, like much in this hobby, becomes a matter of personal choice and taste along with meeting the buyers' individual requirements for things such a amplifier power, DAC quality, EQ system, connectivity and streaming services (again, there is the lack of DLNA and internet radio here that is a major miss at the price point), ease of use, upgradeability, and much more. What's right for you might not be right for me or the next guy. That's what makes it a ballgame. I hope Emo can help here by posting 20-20K test results and then we'll be better able to do comparisons. My post was factual and made comparisons on an equal playing field. So now you will accept the Emo AP test if it is at 20Hz-20kHz, that's funny. But the tests by S&V were at 1kHz. Your logic sounds intoxicated. Give the Fusion attack up. It tests out extremely well comparatively for a $700 receiver. I compared all five power results at 1kHz. Hello. |
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 28, 2014 1:47:19 GMT -5
I know well the differences and have used AP devices. No slights intended here, and I'm not making any condescending remarks. Fell free to point them out. Let's try and have a civil discussion, OK?
All I am asking is for EMO to do a 20-20k test and post it for comparison to the 1k test they currently have. I'm not attacking the Fusion. As I said, I simply think that for $699 it would be nice to see more than 4 HDMI inputs, DLNA and connectivity and an easy to use upgrade method. If it had that, I'd consider it. Those are my requirements and it doesn't meet them. AS I SAID ABOVE, if the unit as it stands meets someone else's requirements, then they should by all means buy one.
READ CAREFULLY: I NEVER said Emo used their AP tests incorrectly. They clearly state the frequency at which the tests were made and there is nothing at all wrong with that. They didn't do anything wrong, they just didn't do what I would like to see. Fine if they do, their right certainly not to do so if they choose. As Lucy liked to say "It's their football, they set the rules." What's wrong with asking?
If you like it, buy it. If you don't like it isn't negative, it simply means it isn't for you. Who is "intoxicated"? It is the "if you don't agree you're negative" attitude that gives some a bad taste here, just as some here (often for good reasons, often for not) avoid other forums.
When we see test results from the same place using the same regime all of this will go away. Let's try and avoid the "attack", "intoxicated" and "condescending" comments, shall we? I respect your logic as you see it and only ask the same in return.
And, since that seems to be a prerequisite here, YES, I HAVE bought Emo products. I bought and returned an amp years ago because it was in advance of the UMC-1 and I wanted a matching stack. After waiting and waiting for the UMC-1 (at the time) I took the oft delivered "why don't you buy something else" advice and returned it. Recently tried an XPA-5 Gen.2. Nice, but not for me a variety of reasons and sold it to a friend. When and if the XMC-1 sports 600MHz/18GHz HDMI capability and presuming it delivers on the promises after they are in sufficient distribution to see any birthing pains solved I'll consider that.
But I will call them as I see them, respect those who see differently and trust that others will do the same.
Hello... Opps. Don't want to be condescending, right? (What's good for the goose, etc.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 3:08:12 GMT -5
"One has to think that if the ratings were good Emo would have shown them."
This statement by you is a clear implication that Emo will not show the 20Hz-20kHz output because under the full bandwidth the power rating would be no good and thus they are hiding the results. I call that condescending, especially here at a dedicated Emotiva forum. You fail to agree with the facts I have posted that although Denon, Marantz, Arcam and Anthem might have a 20Hz-20kHz spec somewhere deep in the small print, that in fact when tested by S&V Mag they were measured way under their published power rating. Why don't they show specs in their literature with 7 channels operating as the S&V test and Emo's AP tests show? Why don't they test on their own AP machine if they have one and post it at their website like Emo does? Maybe they would have shown the results if they were good. Touche! OK, that's it, I get tired quickly of discussing this with you when it's like riding on a carousel. Adios.
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