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Post by daveburt on Apr 17, 2014 3:21:58 GMT -5
Not sure if you folks will be interested or not... My current NAS is starting to run low on space, and with the release of the new 25w AMD Kabini chips (quad core) I decided to build a new one.  I just got all the gear together today:  Here's a parts list: CPU: AMD Athlon 5350 (2Ghz/4 core/25w) Mobo: ASRock AM1B-ITX Mem: 4gb of Crucial Balistix DDR3/1600 1.5v (I had these laying around) PSU: Seasonic 300w 80+ Bronze Case: Fractal Node 304 Drives: 3x WD Red (NAS drives)/3tb each So far I'm in for ~$700. The drives were by far the most expensive parts (~$450)! I've put the box together tonight, but haven't installed the software yet. I plan on using Nas4Free (Raid5). I know I can get that to work! Since my old NAS still has a little space I'll play with it a while and try to set up a ZFS (Z1 array). Anyway, here are some pics of my progress so far:  I try really hard, but I just suck at wire management...   I included the 16oz beer can to give a size reference:  One last shot of the backside (w/beer can  )  I've fired the completed system up (into BIOS), and it's only pulling 33w from the wall, that's drives/processor/case fans and everything. Pretty Sweet! Oh well, I may have drank too many of those size demo beers.... If you folks are interested in my NAS adventures I'll keep you updated! L8r..... Dave |
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Post by jjmatrix on Apr 17, 2014 5:55:14 GMT -5
Interesting project... please keep us updated. Also, personally, I wouldn't go for RAID 5 for two reasons: it's not running some critical application that requires 24/7 uptime, and second, you loose 3 TB (one HDD). Instead I'd use RAID 0 for performance; HDDs these days rarely fail so that data is completely unrecoverable, more so in a home environment. Install a HDD health monitor software and you should be set.
Just a thought.
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Post by yves on Apr 17, 2014 7:03:33 GMT -5
Looks like you forgot to add the custom front, the plexyglass window and the neon lighting! J/K...  |
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Post by copperpipe on Apr 17, 2014 7:44:54 GMT -5
Interesting project... please keep us updated. Also, personally, I wouldn't go for RAID 5 for two reasons: it's not running some critical application that requires 24/7 uptime, and second, you loose 3 TB (one HDD). Instead I'd use RAID 0 for performance; HDDs these days rarely fail so that data is completely unrecoverable, more so in a home environment. Install a HDD health monitor software and you should be set. Just a thought. no, no, no, this is bad advice. Never use raid0 for anything other than test data that you have other copies of or can afford to lose. hdd's definitely do fail a lot, today just as much; when you raid 0 them together, you increase the chances of your entire system going down (look it up, it's simple statistics and probability). It's worse chances combined together than 1 disk by itself. In fact, you are planning to play around with zfs, I would put the effort into learning it; write down the commands you need to maintain the array, including swapping in / out a bad drive, adding more drives to the pool, or live upgrading the pool size by replacing all drives with bigger ones. Once you have that figured out and working, zfs is simply the best solution for large disk storage. There is also software like freenas which may provide a nice interface for all this though I haven't used it myself. |
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Post by rcohen on Apr 17, 2014 7:53:18 GMT -5
If you are interested in ZFS, check out NexentaStor Community Edition, which is a GUI front end to Solaris. I use NexentaStor at work, and it's great. ZFS is probably better for high-end applications, though. I use a Linux-based iSCSI NAS at home. ZFS is great at taking advantage of lots of RAM and hierarchical storage with SSD read and write cache drives for great performance and data integrity. Lots of mirror sets (RAID10) are much faster than a single RAIDZ set (RAID5). On a low-end setup without SSD cache or much RAM, I'd say stick with standard Linux file systems. It's better at that.
Another issue is Linux RAID5 vs ZFS RAIDZ. RAIDZ is better at data integrity, but when doing small random reads, RAID5 acts like 1 stripe per drive, but RAIDZ acts like 1 stripe for the whole drive set. They both act like a single stripe when writing. So, if you intend to use it as a media server with multiple simultaneous readers, RAID5 will work much better than RAIDZ.
RAID0 acts like 1 stripe per drive for the best random write performance, but I definitely wouldn't recommend RAID0, unless you care more about write performance than data integrity. It's only a matter of time until those drives start failing. Normally, for a media server, random write performance isn't a major concern.
I use RAID5 (not RAID0 or RAIDZ) at home for my media server.
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Apr 17, 2014 12:20:51 GMT -5
Not sure if you folks will be interested or not... My current NAS is starting to run low on space, and with the release of the new 25w AMD Kabini chips (quad core) I decided to build a new one. I just got all the gear together today: Here's a parts list: CPU: AMD Athlon 5350 (2Ghz/4 core/25w) Mobo: ASRock AM1B-ITX Mem: 4gb of Crucial Balistix DDR3/1600 1.5v (I had these laying around) PSU: Seasonic 300w 80+ Bronze Case: Fractal Node 304 Drives: 3x WD Red (NAS drives)/3tb each So far I'm in for ~$700. The drives were by far the most expensive parts (~$450)! I've put the box together tonight, but haven't installed the software yet. I plan on using Nas4Free (Raid5). I know I can get that to work! Since my old NAS still has a little space I'll play with it a while and try to set up a ZFS (Z1 array)... Oh well, I may have drank too many of those size demo beers.... If you folks are interested in my NAS adventures I'll keep you updated! L8r..... Dave Hi, DAVE, congratulations for the ideia, I really like your option/choice! -Please tell us more about your experience, I am very interest in that stuff at this moment... |
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Post by rcohen on Apr 17, 2014 12:46:56 GMT -5
BTW, for anyone looking for a NAS appliance box, these work and perform great, and they're cheap at $279. www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=22-102-075RIn iSCSI mode, I get wire speed using RAID5: 125mb/sec over Gigabit Ethernet. I just have an SSD in my HTPC, and then keep the NAS box in another room. Using iSCSI, it shows up as a local drive on the HTPC. You can also set up file shares on the NAS box, but the iSCSI approach works better for me. |
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Post by lsdeep on Apr 17, 2014 20:20:31 GMT -5
BTW, for anyone looking for a NAS appliance box, these work and perform great, and they're cheap at $279. www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=22-102-075RIn iSCSI mode, I get wire speed using RAID5: 125mb/sec over Gigabit Ethernet. I just have an SSD in my HTPC, and then keep the NAS box in another room. Using iSCSI, it shows up as a local drive on the HTPC. You can also set up file shares on the NAS box, but the iSCSI approach works better for me. they are not bad at all, especially at the price point. but one should be clear about it - it comes without hdd's! its the (not so) bare bone needing up to 5 drives of your choice. i am completely with you on the setup nas in other location (in my case it is a basement storage room) and having a quiet 'head unit' in the actual listening room. i use a modified 19" hp/compaq g350 rack server case with all the original fans (that thing makes enough noise to compare to a starting jet - which is fine with the storage room and keeps all drives nicely under 35°C at 27 to 29°C room temp.). everything else is 'custom' build in with 'hardwired' hdd's for maximum space use. not nice to look at, but does the job. personally i am not a friend of getting forced into limited options (in terms of expandability) for big bucks (see buffalo, qnap etc), but at this price point i would consider it if i wouldn't need more storage capability as it is. cheers, L |
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Post by lsdeep on Apr 17, 2014 20:50:50 GMT -5
Interesting project... please keep us updated. Also, personally, I wouldn't go for RAID 5 for two reasons: it's not running some critical application that requires 24/7 uptime, and second, you loose 3 TB (one HDD). Instead I'd use RAID 0 for performance; HDDs these days rarely fail so that data is completely unrecoverable, more so in a home environment. Install a HDD health monitor software and you should be set. Just a thought. well mate, he is not building a gaming machine etc., but a nas! raid0 would be counter-productive. for most stuff stored on a media-nas, performance is not an issue (the 'need of speed' issue in ones mind is a different issue), but data security and failsafe with reasonable hdd access times are the issue. drives actually fail, even in a home environment. often enough rather 'suddenly'. hdd's are way more reliable than years ago, but not fail-safe and even less so because you use a monitoring software, stay always within recommended temps. check the smart status all the time. all that helps, but it keeps ppl also in a imagined cloud of safety. working as a sys admin, trust me, there is nothing else more true than murphy's law!!! for home use i would not go with raid0 or 5 for data i want reasonably well protected at low cost. i would go with unraid, kind of a 'take the best of everything, give user max. flexibility, reasonable safety' etc. but also freenas etc. are good solutions. raid0 is not for a nas. raid0 is a good solution for a gaming machine or REALTIME! video/ audio editing. you will remember this post once your first hdd kicks the bucket in a striping only setup mate! cheers, L |
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Post by lsdeep on Apr 17, 2014 21:11:50 GMT -5
Not sure if you folks will be interested or not... My current NAS is starting to run low on space, and with the release of the new 25w AMD Kabini chips (quad core) I decided to build a new one. I just got all the gear together today: Here's a parts list: CPU: AMD Athlon 5350 (2Ghz/4 core/25w) Mobo: ASRock AM1B-ITX Mem: 4gb of Crucial Balistix DDR3/1600 1.5v (I had these laying around) PSU: Seasonic 300w 80+ Bronze Case: Fractal Node 304 Drives: 3x WD Red (NAS drives)/3tb each So far I'm in for ~$700. The drives were by far the most expensive parts (~$450)! I've put the box together tonight, but haven't installed the software yet. I plan on using Nas4Free (Raid5). I know I can get that to work! Since my old NAS still has a little space I'll play with it a while and try to set up a ZFS (Z1 array). Anyway, here are some pics of my progress so far: I try really hard, but I just suck at wire management... I included the 16oz beer can to give a size reference: One last shot of the backside (w/beer can ) I've fired the completed system up (into BIOS), and it's only pulling 33w from the wall, that's drives/processor/case fans and everything. Pretty Sweet! Oh well, I may have drank too many of those size demo beers.... If you folks are interested in my NAS adventures I'll keep you updated! L8r..... Dave looks like a sweet setup mate! on the other hand it is poss overkill for a nas! i would have used a cooler master elite 130 (half the price. same features - but maybe optical liking's play in to it) instead. (well actually i would haved used a mid/ full size tower of a no-brand company for later expansion options. mb depends on your cpu mainly, but atx boards can be found cheap compared to itx. your cpu and the 4gb ram should keep that box flying (generally completely oversized for a nas). the psu as well should be doing the job 2times + over! oversized for the project mate! as for the drives (i am not going into what drives to use, it's a very personal thing for many ppl), they will become your problem in the future again. i don't know how much digital media you have/ add to your current collection... but basically 9tb (deduct the 'safe keeping' space) will poss not cut it in the longer run. see the positive site of it - the majority of your hardware can be used once you reach the ceiling again and need to upgrade anyway, didn't try to sound negative here, just think it is overbuild for the max capabilities, if you use it as a 'pure' nas. i am looking forward to your updates. cheers, L |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Apr 17, 2014 22:26:24 GMT -5
I agree with lsdeep in using unraid, and I have used Nas4Free as well as FreeNas.
Out of curiosity, which way is the airflow on the psu, and are two of the drives actually on top of the psu?
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Post by daveburt on Apr 18, 2014 3:08:14 GMT -5
lsdeep: I researched the parts pretty well, didn't want to "cheap out" since I may want to expand this box in the future. I actually looked at that Cooler Master case you mentioned. My problem with it was it only had three 3.5" bays while the Fractal has 6, so I spent the extra $30... I realize the 300w PSU ($39) may be a bit of overkill, but it was the smallest full size PSU I could find that had a strong 12v rail and was rated 80+ Bronze. Should I decide to add more drives down the road I don't want the 12v straining (this rig will be running 24/7). My old NAS used an AMD E-350 embedded board and it was always a little slow with transfer speeds. Where this box will be placed I don't have room for a full tower case, and this CPU/mobo combo ($60/$44 respectively) wasn't what I consider expensive. Hopefully it'll solve the speed problems while still remaining in the same power envelope. The ram was old stuff I had laying around so it was basically free... ElTwo: Even though I keep backups, I like Raid 5 for it's redundancy should one of the drives fail. I know I'll lose about 3tb of space, it just makes me feel more confident with my data... The 2 fans in the front pull air in from the outside (over the HD cages), the one at the rear exhaust warm air from the case. The PSU draws it's air from the bottom and exhausts out the side. Two of the drives are over the PSU, but with the power draw of this system I don't foresee it being a problem especially considering the front fans will be blowing cool air across them. Computers are my other hobby, and when I saw this new 25w quad core chip from AMD I instantly thought of my aging NAS... Seemed like the perfect excuse to try one out! 
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Post by jjmatrix on Apr 24, 2014 6:49:20 GMT -5
I think we're talking about two different things: RAID offers data redundancy but it's not a backup solution - for many reasons, which is why I think some people took issue with my advice. I wasn't talking about RAID as a backup system, but rather as a read/write improvement. It's a common misconception. In any case, the last I want is to turn this thread into a RAID debate. Dave... whatever configuration you choose, don't give up on backing up your data because you have RAID; now that would be a bad piece of advice IMO. Also, as a side note for those sneering at "gaming" systems, these are by far the best performing computers available for home use and guess what? You don't have to play games to buy/use one . |
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Post by rcohen on Apr 24, 2014 8:29:06 GMT -5
The drives will fail. It's only a matter of time. Assuming you have a backup, I still think you will find reformatting RAID0 and restoring 5-10tb of data will make you wish you had redundancy. It's so much easier to swap out a RAID5 drive, with no downtime. I am running RAID5 via iSCSI, plus using CrashPlan for online backups. This is working very well as a media server. I have been running this for 4 years, and I have had a couple drives fail. I had to make this change from CrashPlan to work reliably with 8tb of data, but after that, it works great: support.code42.com/CrashPlan/Latest/Troubleshooting/CrashPlan_Runs_Out_Of_Memory_And_Crashes |
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Post by GreenKiwi on Apr 24, 2014 9:06:30 GMT -5
Yeah. At those sizes you need redundancy. Drives are going to fail and you want to just pop the drive out and put a new one in.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Apr 24, 2014 9:40:54 GMT -5
I used a Fractal "Array R2 Mini ITX NAS Case" for my first NAS. It is very similar to the "Node 304". The 304 has some great improvements. The R2 only had 1 larger fan in the front with nothing in the rear. I installed 2 50mm fans over the exhaust grid in the rear with silicone adhesive to achieve better cooling. I would replace the boot HD with a SSHD. My new NAS is built with a Fractal Node 605. This unit looks just like a piece of audio gear and has a bit more space.  |
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230 
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Post by novisnick on Apr 24, 2014 9:44:00 GMT -5
I used a Fractal "Array R2 Mini ITX NAS Case" for my first NAS. It is very similar to the "Node 304". The 304 has some great improvements. The R2 only had 1 larger fan in the front with nothing in the rear. I installed 2 50mm fans over the exhaust grid in the rear with silicone adhesive to achieve better cooling. I would replace the boot HD with a SSHD. My new NAS is built with a Fractal Node 605. This unit looks just like a piece of audio gear and has a bit more space. Sweet!!!!! When can I place my order? |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Apr 24, 2014 10:26:03 GMT -5
I suspect that many people have the (optimistic) idea that, as long as they have good drive redundancy, they don't NEED to make backups. (They believe that the data on a RAID array is so well "protected" from problems that they don't have to bother with backups. Often, these are the folks who didn't bother to back things up to begin with, and see RAID as a way to avoid having to do so in the future.) This is WRONG  - for several reasons.... 1) The RAID controller itself is somewhat proprietary. Someday your NAS or "RAID box" itself will die, at which point you may or may not be able to put the drives with your data on them into another one and get them to play. Don't count on it! While separate hard drives can usually be moved from one computer to another, RAID drives usually cannot. Odds are, if your RAID controller or NAS fails, you will NOT be able to read those drives in one from another manufacturer - and they may not even work in a new model from the same company. RAID protects you from hardware failure of the drives themselves - and DOESN'T protect you from anything else. 2) To repeat: RAID ONLY PROTECTS YOU FROM DATA LOSS DUE TO HARD DRIVE FAILURE. * RAID does NOT protect you from hitting the Delete key by mistake. * RAID does NOT protect you from overwriting one file with another. * RAID does NOT protect you if your music server - or player - or tag editor - decides to corrupt the data. * In fact, RAID does NOT protect you if the RAID controller itself fails and starts corrupting its own data. RAID is very good at what it does (certain RAID variations can also be used to improve performance). However, sf anything, since having a huge RAID array encourages you to accumulate more music, and spend more time organizing it, it makes backups even more critical. The more effort you spend on your music collection, the more important it is to protect that effort by keeping good backups. I think we're talking about two different things: RAID offers data redundancy but it's not a backup solution - for many reasons, which is why I think some people took issue with my advice. I wasn't talking about RAID as a backup system, but rather as a read/write improvement. It's a common misconception. In any case, the last I want is to turn this thread into a RAID debate. Dave... whatever configuration you choose, don't give up on backing up your data because you have RAID; now that would be a bad piece of advice IMO. Also, as a side note for those sneering at "gaming" systems, these are by far the best performing computers available for home use and guess what? You don't have to play games to buy/use one . |
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Post by daveburt on Apr 24, 2014 13:22:53 GMT -5
I would replace the boot HD with a SSHD. My new NAS is built with a Fractal Node 605. This unit looks just like a piece of audio gear and has a bit more space. Chuck, I use that same case (605) for my HTPC. It really does look like a quality piece of audio equipment! The only problem I had with building it was the installing the (notebook/thin) BR drive, and wire management was kind of a pain... Once I worked out all the details It's a nice case, even though the door won't stay closed anymore.  Little update on the NAS box: I played a little with ZFS (huge learning curve!) and decided to just go with a standard software Raid5. I've ran into a few quirks, probably due to the fact that the hardware is so new... 1) Turning on the CPU power saving option from the WebGUI put it into a reboot loop. The board bios seems to handle throttling by itself though. 2) Nas4Free didn't recognize the onboard NIC, so I had to install a pci-e card. Still trying to work out a few bugs getting my Windows machines to recognize it. Been really busy lately (health problems). I'm using a 2Gb flash drive for the OS, and after formatting the array I'm left with 5.75Tb of free space. At idle, system power consumption from the wall is below 25w! Better than the E-350... I'll post final info, transfer speeds, power draw etc., once I get everything up and running. Dave |
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Post by rcohen on Apr 26, 2014 21:41:10 GMT -5
Regarding backups, that CrashPlan service is great for a media server (once you make that INI file tweak). I did a decent amount of research before going with that. Very cheap, unlimited capacity, fast (doesn't throttle uploads, like other online services), good tech, easy to use, automated, off site.
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- for several reasons....
